Does the quran say that a "muslim" must have faith
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for the response. From what I know I find it to be reasonable that conclusion in the article Wakas referred to.
I'll try to verify the article more thoroughly with the means brother Wakas has provided.-)
I hope this debate continues peacefully. Don't comment the writer, but that which was written.
Nadeem.
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Hello All
This comment is to refute the wrong allegations regarding the definition of ?Muslim? and ?Mumin? by some Muslims who lack Arabic and has to resort to some flawed methods to explain the Arabic meaning of the Quran.
The words means literally the following
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?S L M? , to surrender(submit) or to greet, Both meanings are common and a variety of words can be driven out of it
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?A M N?, to believe or to secure, and again both meanings are common and many words can extracted from it
In the religion of Islam however, both words were used MOST of the times to express the first meaning mentioned
I also explained the difference between the two which I learnt over 20 years ago from top Arabic language experts in Egypt, that difference in meaning is clear as light in the Quran, NO MANIPULATIONS, NO EGO TO SHOW THAT I KNOW WHAT OTHERS DON?T, it is all about the truth and I can?t conceal the truth as the Quran taught me to do
Again here is what I posted above regarding the religious difference between the two
Ahmed said before
-> Being a Muslim is higher level than being a Mumin and harder to achieve
1-> All prophets must have been Muslims because they surely reached that higher level of Islam (submission)
2-> You can't be a Muslim without being a Mumin
3-> If there are practises/beliefs that are required under the laws of being a Mumin, then those practises must be submitted to more humbly when reaching a Muslim level, ie THEY ARE ALSO REQUIRED
4-> If there is no practises associated with being a Mumin then they are not needed while being a Muslim
Now let?s look at some verses from the Quran and see if it will conflict with the above
?And Musa said O my people! if you believe in Allah, then rely on Him (alone) if you submit (to Allah).?
(84)
-> Obviously Moses is telling the Jews, to be submitters , they need to rely on Allah AFTER they BELIEVED, therefore ?Muslimeen? can not be the same as ?Mumineen? unless the ?Mumineen? rely on Allah if they want to be ?Muslimeen? ie. ?Submitters?
-> Compare this verse with the points I put in the definition mentioned above, we will see that it can?t be faulted
-> Moses is a prophet and the verse is telling us that he advised his believing people to submit, hence Moses must be a submitter from the first place if he is advising others to do the same, ie. all prophets must have been submitters because it is a higher level than believing.
-> It is logical to understand that those believing Jews must been believers already in what was required by them to believe in according to Moses instructions at the time, therefore they can NOT be submitters ?as requested again? unless they already believe in the Torah and sure they must have been practising what was required from them to do at the time, ie if it was a requirement to the belief then it must also be a requirement to submit,
HOW CAN YOU SUBMIT TO SOMETHING THAT YOU DON?T KNOW IT FIRST?
knowing will lead to the belief in it, then the belief will lead to submitting to it.
-> And because the Quran didn?t exist then, their submission pre-requirement can?t include the belief in the Quran but they had an equivalent requirement if they want to submit to Allah which is to believe in the Torah
In another location we see that Allah differentiated between the two PRESENT VERBS ?YuMin? and ?Uslim?
?The Arabs say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.?
(14)
-> Clear from the above that when the Arabs said ?We Believed? Allah is advising them to say ?We Submit? because it is a higher level than believing and is proper for a believer to rely on Allah and submit after he/she believed already, it is strange that some think the above verse means it is one or the other, i.e. ?To Believe? or ?To Submit?, there is no way the verse means that, it actually means you can?t be a submitter without being a believer and for myself, I always say it this way that I submit because I was a believer by fitra and all I worked on in my last 25 years in life was to Submit to Allah and I tell you, it is not easy to achieve.
-> We can also see that ? ? which means ?To Submit? is a VERB, this should refute any ignorance suggesting that ?Islam? never appeared as a verb in the Quran. In fact it appeared as a verb numerous times as we will see below
?Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.?
(31)
-> In the above verse we see the word ?Islam? was used as an adjective? to describe Solomon?s order to Sheba and her people to surrender to him, this verse can have double meanings, it can mean to surrender to him ?as in power? and it can also mean to ?surrender with him to Allah in Islam (submission)?, a perfectly put Arabic verse in the Quran by Allah
-> The verse below can be understood exactly as above
?He said O chiefs! which of you can bring to me her throne before they come to me in submission??
(3
-> To surrender to Solomon in power or to Surrender with Solomon to Allah in Islam (submission), it most like means to surrender in power, because the verse said "COME TO HIM" ie, to Solomon and we should not submit to anyone but Allah, hence it must meant surrender in power
?And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.?
(46)
-> In 2946 we see that the ?already? believers should say to the people of the book that THEY BELIEVE IN the one God, and TO HIM they submit, this is very important verse because IN Allah we believe, and ??, TO Allah we submit, CLEAR AS LIGHT ?Lahu Muslimoon?
111- ?And they say None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say Bring your proof if you are truthful.?
112- ?Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.?
(111)
(112)-> Here is another verse for the silly claim that the word ?Islam? was never mentioned as a verb, ironically the verse is talking about the three religions, the first two were mentioned as NOUNS and Islam was mentioned as a verb ? And they say None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian.?, then for Islam it was a verb to submit ? Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.?, what more proofs than this that Islam is an action to submit?, not enough?, read further.
19- ?Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.?
20- ?But if they dispute with you, say I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.?
(19)
(20)-> Well, what can I say, in the above verse we read ? Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam?, ie, Islam was used as a NOUN, then it was explained further as an action in the following verse ? I have submitted myself entirely to Allah?, said again in a verb and it confirms that Mohammad was a true submitter, then the verse tells Mohammad to say this to all of us ? Do you submit yourselves??, again Islam was used as a verb, then if they commission that verb ?if they submit then indeed they follow the right way?, for the third time in one verse, Islam was used as a verb to mean ?To Submit to Allah?
Let me go back to Solomon story to show you that the Queen of Sheba came to Solomon after she surrendered to his power, we will see that she also declared her submission TO Allah with Solomon
?It was said to her Enter the palace; but when she saw it she deemed it to be a great expanse of water, and bared her legs. He said Surely it is a palace made smooth with glass. She said My Lord! surely I have been unjust to myself, and I submit with Sulaiman to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.?
(44)
-> Again her Islam was expressed as a verb ? ?, therefore whatever Solomon was believing in she must has followed it because she submitted to his power first and came to him and when she arrived and was more stunned she declared HER SUBMISSION TO ALLAH AFTER ARRIVAL
83- ?Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.?
84- ?Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.?
85- ?And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.?
(83)
(84)
(85)-> Another compelling verses that shows Deen Allah expressed in a verb ?As'lam? ?? ?to submit to Allah? by all creatures in the heaven and earth, these verses should also refute the ignorance suggesting that Islam means ?greeting with peace? and NOT ?to Submit to Allah? , because we read in 383 that all these creatures were either given the choice OR been FORCED to ?Submit to Allah? and because Force is used then it has to be ?Submit? not ?Peace? ? ?, ie. ? and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly?
?And who has a better religion than he who submits himself entirely to Allah? And he is the doer of good (to others) and follows the faith of Ibrahim, the upright one, and Allah took Ibrahim as a friend.?
(125)
-> Again Islam was used as a verb ? And who has a better religion than he who submits himself entirely to Allah??, and that is what Ibrahim did ? and follows the faith of Ibrahim, the upright one, and Allah took Ibrahim as a friend?, therefore Ibrahim was a true submitter in addition to a believer, all prophets were believers by fitra any way, and I guess all humans are born believers by fitra
?Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.?
(44)
-> We read above the same verb ?to submit? and the verse also confirms that the Nabyoon were Submitters ? We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah)?
?And return to your Lord time after time and submit to Him before there comes to you the punishment, then you shall not be helped.?
(54)
-> Again to be a Muslim, it was expressed in a verb? ?, ie, ? And return to your Lord time after time and submit to Him?, clearly the words TO HIM means that Islam is the action of submitting to Him after believing in Him.
?Say I am forbidden to serve those whom you call upon besides Allah when clear arguments have come to me from my Lord, and I am commanded that I should submit to the Lord of the worlds.?
(66)
-> Same said by the prophet that ? and I am commanded that I should submit to the Lord of the worlds.?, the verb ?Oslim? was used again ? ?
Ahmed finally says
See, clear as light
No one can submit to something without believing in that thing, that is what the common sense say, I thought most of you here use that common sense unlike the sunni ignorance but it seems many here compete very well with the sunni, what can I say
Possibly like the old man said, Ignorance is a bliss?
There is only one thing left to say, what a believer ?Mumin? ?Not a Submitter? should believe in after Mohammad message was sent to humanity?, the Quran in numerous locations told us what we should believe in as believers ?Mumineen?, I found one verse with all what they should believe in as the basics of their belief
?O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.?
(136)
No more from me regarding this subject, unless a really silly comment that I have to respond to
I rest my case
Peace to all
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peace Ahmed, all,
1084 says "if" and is a statement by Moses. Thus all the points you concluded about them being believers are invalid.
4914 clearly implies an order. submission comes prior to attaining faith (it hasn't yet entered the heart, so that means its not there, a clear order if there ever was one)
(please note I'm just using the English words used in the translation you provided)Also, 974 suggests an order.
I thought of an interesting distinction, is the word islam/submission primarily used in conjunction with God, whilst iman is used for other things, e.g. scripture, messengers, angels* etc. ? This could lead to a subtle yet important distinction.
*common translation.
Wakas
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peace Ahmed, all,
1084 says "if" and is a statement by Moses. Thus all the points you concluded about them being believers are invalid.
Peace wakas
It was said to them in the past tense that if they have been believers, ie. if they believed then this is what this should do next, it was past tense, obvioulsy it was directed to theones who believed
therefore my argument is valid and the verse I posted after it confirms it as the Arabs said the same "Aammana" "They Believed" ie, it was past tense and the verse was directed at those arabs who said we believed.
4914 clearly implies an order. submission comes prior to attaining faith (it hasn't yet entered the heart, so that means its not there, a clear order if there ever was one)
(please note I'm just using the English words used in the translation you provided)I don't agree wakas as you can't submit unless you believe, and this is when the free will to submit will come into play after the belief becimes stronger and more founded
I thought of an interesting distinction, is the word islam only used in conjunction with God, whilst iman is used for other things, e.g. scripture, messengers, angels* etc. ?
that is right as we should only submit to Allah and not to humans, our submission must be free willed therefore we must be believers first
we can not be forced to submit, other wise we won't have free will
Peace
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Hi everyone,
Maybe faith and submission are to seperate things independent of eachother, even though they can affect eachother?
Nadeem.
Peace
they are separate things but submission is dependant of belief, however belief is not dependant of submission
peace
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Peace,
There are subtleties to the matter as Wakas clearly points to. However Ahmed is trying to create indirectly from unrelated verses a case for his own pre-conceived ideas.
4914 deals directly with the order of absolute belief and submission.
When Ahmed quotes...
384 ?Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.?
This does not deal with the order. This statement is true for a 'mumin' or believer, because they do in fact believe what is established in their hearts by the God, and they do submit to Him; but they submitted before the belief was established.
To illustrate this further let's look at...
28 Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers.
Wamina alnnasi man yaqoolu amanna biAllahi wabialyawmi al-akhiri wama hum bimu/mineena
This illustrates that belief is more than what is said (again dealt with elsewhere 214 for example); one must firstly submit to the God, act righteously, and will then have belief established in their hearts.
The verses that Ahmed quotes are overwhelmingly to do with submission - and not people saying they believe. I argue that you cannot easily know that you are a 'mumin' - you can only continue to strive to submit and be righteous. It is up to the God whether your heart will attain certainty.
Belief therefore means certainty.
24 And they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you,* and with regard to the Hereafter, they are absolutely certain.
Waallatheena yu/minoona bima onzila ilayka wama onzila min qablika wabial-akhirati hum yooqinoona
25 These are guided by their Lord; these are the winners.
You can acknowledge that there is the God and thereby submit; but being assured or absolutely certain is different.
And there is the subtlety.
You might acknowledge that I am a man who resides in Australia, but until you experience the truth of it in a sense then you can't be certain of it.
Regards.
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Brother Ahmed,
Maybe we must define submission and faith?
Submission to what, and faith in what?
Is faith simply knowing god and the system? If so, then satan is a better believer than us put together.
If submission is following god's path but still unaware of god and the system, then what is the difference between submitters and those who blindly follow satan?
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. We can't progress before we define these terms.
Nadeem
Nadeem. -
Brother Ahmed,
peace bro
Maybe we must define submission and faith?
Submission to what, and faith in what?
faith is to believe in the Unseen as per 23 and what we should believe in as per 4136 are Allah, His messnegers, the Quran, the previous scriptures sent, the Angels and the Judgment Day
Submission if to totally and entirly to submit to Allah that we suppose believed in Him already and that is what Islam is
Is faith simply knowing god and the system? If so, then satan is a better believer than us put together.
absolutely, and I read many times in some arabic books over 20 years ago that no human believed in Allah as satan did however his ego destroyed him
If submission is following god's path but still unaware of god and the system,
no, submission is following God's path while being aware who is God
you can't submit to an unknown entity, logically speaking
then what is the difference between submitters and those who blindly follow satan?
there is no difference indeed, the believers submitted to Allah and the unbleivers submitted to Satan and obeyed him blindly
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. We can't progress before we define these terms.
Nadeem.
sure , I tried and I hope I did understand it
peace
