How Did it Come to This? (Part 1)
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Peace Phoenix,
I think what Danish is saying is that although kaaba doesn't mean cube, it could still be a proper name of a structure. Just like Nadeem's not really a drunk.
This is why Danish and Aladdin base their entire beliefs on "kaaba" being a proper name. They know that proper names are meaningless labels that don't really convey the truth. They are not interested in the truth.
So can you give us proof that kaaba is in fact a common noun, not a name?
The proof is the same as for the proof for all common nouns. By default any noun is a common noun unless its meaning doesn't fit in the context. Since "base" fits in the context then it must be a common noun by default.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Aladdin,
Who in God's name is "Yar?"
And why are you talking about milks,camels, and goats?Peace Phoenix1,
Yar in Urdu means my best friend. Regarding milks,camels, and goats? Regarding Rock and Stones?
Didn't you read my above post? Read below
Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Hajj Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. If anyone obeys his own impulse to do good deeds, be sure God is Grateful, the all Knowing.
The below literal and Free-Minds translation are both from this site http//yaqb.org/
Literal That the Saffa/rock and the Marwa/flint stones (are) from God's methods/ways of worship, so who performed pilgrimage (to) the House/Home , or headed to/visited so no offense/guilt/sin on him that (he) circles/walks around by them, and who volunteered good , so that God (is) thankful/grateful, knowledgeable.
Free-Minds The camel and goat heavy with milk are amongst God's decrees. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should partake of them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Mohamed
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The proof is the same as for the proof for all common nouns. By default any noun is a common noun unless its meaning doesn't fit in the context. Since "base" fits in the context then it must be a common noun by default.
peace Ayman,
makes sense.
This is what I understand
"We are all nadeems so we shouldn't be driving."
This is a proper noun because it makes sense in the context. -
peace Yar,
sorry, I speak urdu but I didn't pick it up.
So, we're best friends?peace Ayman,
makes sense.
This is what I understand
"We are all nadeems so we shouldn't be driving."
This is a proper noun because it makes sense in the context.Salaam Yar,
Why not!
Did I answer your question about Milk, Camel and Goats? And, about Rock and Stones?
Who cares Kaaba is a noun and/or proper noun. My school is called Red, because my school is red colored, so my teacher decided to name the school as such. I go to Red (proper noun) school. And Red Ridding Hood goes to my Red School!
The house of GOD is cubed and it has a base (kaaba), because it has a base (kaaba), so it was decided to name it Kaaba by some, but still it is a house of GOD!
Mohamed
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Peace be with you
Peace Warner,
The article is mistaken. The word "ka3b" doesn't mean ankle it means heel. Hence, in Classical Arabic the term "ak3ab alrajul" means "the man walked faster on his heels" NOT "the man walked faster on his ankles". So according to 56, we should wash our feet to the heels (the base of the entire leg).
Peace,
Ayman
Your explanation above left me bit confused about washing our selves before Salat and I have few questions.
Are we to rub /wipe /wash the feet from the knee down or ankle down ?
Does your interpretation mean we have to wash only the heel and not the entire sole including the ball of the feet and the toes.
Or is Layth correct in his explanation "feet up to the ankles" same as the verse earlier instructs to wash the hands up to the elbow.
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peace yar,
You did answer my question. But I'm afraid we can't agree about kaaba being a house of God.Sure Yar Phoenix1,
God is everywhere, so in a sense you are right. God is not bound with time and space and science has proven this and of course the Koran says so. Here are some of the ayas that might interest you
It is not virtuous that you turn your faces towards sunrise/east or sunset/west; but it is virtuous to believe in God, and the last day, and the angels, and the book, and the prophets. Out of love for God, to give from your substance, for your kin, and for the orphans, and for the needy, and for the wayfarer, and for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; and those who keep their word whenever they promise anything; and those who are patient in suffering or adversity; and throughout all periods of panic; such are the people of truth, and on them is God?s guidance (177) chapter 2.
Who is more wrong than someone who prevents God?s name being mentioned in mosques and worked to ruin them? Such persons should not even enter them except in fear; they will suffer disgrace in this world as well as severe torment in the hereafter (114) Chapter 2.
To God belongs the sunrise/east and the sunset/west. Wherever you turn, there is the face of God. God is the vast the all knowing (115) Chapter 2.
Mohamed
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Salaam Yar,
The House of People!
Made of dark rough stones laid in a very simple manner with white chalk filling the fissures, the Kaaba is an empty cube - nothing else. You cannot but shiver and wonder about what you see Here ... There is no one! There is nothing to view! An empty room (cube) is visible. Is that all?!! Is this the center of our faith, prayers, love, life and death?
Questions and doubts arise in your mind. Where am I? What is here? What you see is the antithesis of your visual imaginations of the Kaaba. You might have perceived it as an architectural beauty (like a palace) whose ceilings covered a spiritual silence. Another possible portrayal was that of a high tomb housing the grave of an important human being - a hero, genius, imam or prophet! No - instead it is an open square, an empty room. It reflects no architectural skill, beauty, art, inscription, nor quality; and no graves are found there. There is nothing and nobody there to whom you can direct your attention, feelings and memories.
You will realize that there is nothing and nobody there to disturb your thoughts and feelings about God. The Kaaba, which you want to fly over to come into contact with the "absolute" and "eternal", is the roof for your feelings. This is something you were unable to achieve in your world of fragmentation and relativity. You could only be philosophical, but now you can see the "absolute", the one who has no direction - Allah! He is every where.
How good it is to see the Kaaba empty! It reminds you that your presence is for the sake of performing Hajj. It is not your destination. Moreover, it is a guide to show the direction.
Kaaba is only a cornerstone, a sign to show the road.
Having decided to move toward eternity, you begin the Hajj. It is an eternal movement toward Allah not toward the Kaaba. The Kaaba is the beginning and not the end - when no more can be done. It is the place where Allah, Ibrahim, Mohammed and people will meet. You will be present there only if your mind is not preoccupied with self-centered thoughts. You must be one of the people! Everyone is dressed in special garments. Being Allah's chastity and family you are honored by him . He has more enthusiasm toward this family than any one else. However, the Kaaba, His property and His house is called the "house of people".
By Dr. Ali Shariati
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This is why Danish and Aladdin base their entire beliefs on "kaaba" being a proper name. They know that proper names are meaningless labels that don't really convey the truth. They are not interested in the truth.
ALL names, whether proper or common, have their significance and none are meaningless. That is just an outcry in disbelief to support the venerated and fantasized "holy book" of an imagined Allah who sent a winged angel named Gabrael to Muhammad in a secret cave in lonesome mode. I like Alladin and his majic lamp, Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, The Swarn Princess, Three Little Pigs, and many other such fantastic bedtime fairy tales to merry-make kids and even adult illiterates and ignorants, to shut them up and put them to sleep.
The proof is the same as for the proof for all common nouns. By default any noun is a common noun unless its meaning doesn't fit in the context. Since "base" fits in the context then it must be a common noun by default.
The word Kaba makes perfect sense in 595 & 597 for three essential reasons
- It signifies a sacred house, a block used for worship throughout pagan history.
- Blocks were made of stone slabs in cuboid shapes to represent idols as seen here http//nabataea.net/blockgods.html
- It was a tradition and a heritage in pagan ignorant history to built idols of all sizes, shapes and forms, and each idol was given its perspective name to bring about attributes as imagined/fantasized. Kaba blocks were just one of many styles used.
These idolworshipping features were not only inherited into Islam and fashioned into a newer monotheistic version during its time, but has its roots in heatheism since aeons ago, as found in every cult of their times.
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Hello Ayman,
Terrific!!! All your ?proofs? and ?evidences? are based upon today?s ?sectarian? and/or ?sunny? claims without a single historical evidence. You might as well believe that Allah is also a jinn, because according to you, jinn means hidden/fantasized/unseen, therefore Allah is also hidden/fantasized/unseen. This would further support your own claim that Allah (The God) must then be a ?jinn block? which all Muslims must submit, bow and circle around to. There?s no other way around it.
Although it does not make any difference to me, the truth of the matter is, that since the ?stone idol blocks? are physical and cuboid in shape, as clearly seen from those pictures in the links provided earlier, it gives more of a reason to be called Kaba rather than a jinn along with all the evidence provided. If one were to ask any Arab, any Muslim or even any non-Muslim throughout the world, that what is it in Mecca that Muslims pay their respect to during their pilgrimage called Hajj, I?m 100% certain that all of them will say Kaba, not jinn.
I think that people need to focus the discussions about Kaaba on what is of primary importance as far as proving or disproving sectarian claims.
Let there be no mistake, the primary source of legitimacy of the sectarians' stone block is that they guarantee that The God endorsed such pagan structure in 595 and 597.
There?s no shred of historical evidence here.
Now let's focus on the fact that everyone here (including Danish) agree on
The word "kaaba/kaab" means "base" NOT "cube"
Rubbish. You don?t have a ?fact? to begin with.
Kaaf-Ayn-Ba = swell/prominent/protuberant/projection/budding (common examples include a woman's breasts), jointed-stem, fold, went away, joint/juncture/division of bones (more commonly the ankle bone), tarsus (in animals), swift, eminence/nobility/glory, anything elevated, square/cubic house/chamber, square-form.
Quote from Lane's lexicon "a house or temple belonging to the tribe of Rabee'ah, who used to compass it, or perform circuits round it (as is done round the Kabbeh of Mekkeh)".
Hans Wehr - Knot, knob, node (of cane); joint, articulation, ankles, anklebone; heel (of foot or shoe) ferule; die; cube; high rank, fame, glory, honor.
The above is complete and sufficient proof to destroy the sectrians' guarantee that The God endorses their revered stone block. Without this, all other points would be irrelevant.
As I said, this is all the proof that matters and is complete and sufficient by itself.
By choosing your own definition to conclude that kaba means base and not cube, and saying that it is complete and sufficient without any proofs or evidence, makes one wonder about an angel with wings that visited Muhammad in a secret cave all by himself. Such poetic and mystical stories are even manufactured today, like you?ve been wading in about all along.
How many sectarians would travel and spend thousands of dollars to spin around a stone structure if they were informed that it is not true that The God endorses their revered stone block? Not many.
They know it all too well, but only in disbelief and ignorance. It is this jinnic charisma of historical facts handed down from generations and the alleged words of mythical invented Allahs and their attributes ?revealed to them? by their pagan superstitious leader/s that has forced man on the edges of their divine blind beliefs.
Now add to the above the following facts that everyone also agrees on
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The word "kaaba" is not mentioned in any pre-quranic or "post-quranic" inscriptions or manuscripts in relation to the stone blocks. Those stone blocks are always associated in inscriptions and manuscripts with idols such as Allat, Manat, and Al3uzza (which we are told are "jinn" in the great reading (and of course its manuscripts) - see Chapter 53 and 3440-41).
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We KNOW for a FACT that sectarians were in the habit of borrowing common nouns in the great reading and turning them into proper names of structures that they themselves built in post-quranic times.
For example, we KNOW for sure that the so-called Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in post-quranic times and no such structure existed prior or during the time when the great reading was descended. Even the staunchest sectarian is forced to acknowledge this fact.
After this there should be absolutely no doubt that sectarian and atheist Sunni claims that The God endorses their pagan structure are bogus.
All the above jinnic agendas of the 21st century hocus pocus will end, if and only if, the following conditions are met
I shall await Ayman's substantial proofs, both pre-quranic and post-quranic as requested, not hocus pocus FITTING ones, on two conditions
- inscription of the word "jinn" on jinn blocks, and
- the word Kaba never means a cuboid structure.
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Peace Danish,
ALL names, whether proper or common, have their significance and none are meaningless. That is just an outcry in disbelief to support the venerated and fantasized "holy book" of an imagined Allah who sent a winged angel named Gabrael to Muhammad in a secret cave in lonesome mode. I like Alladin and his majic lamp, Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, The Swarn Princess, Three Little Pigs, and many other such fantastic bedtime fairy tales to merry-make kids and even adult illiterates and ignorants, to shut them up and put them to sleep.
The fact that proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the reality of what is being named is indisputable. You are obviously ignorant of this simple logical fact. Maybe you think that every guy whose proper name is John is really a "Yahweh is gracious" (which is the meaning of John). I explained this before many times on this thread so ignorance cannot be your only issue but also slooooowness.
Maybe your mind would work faster if you focused on the subject instead of constantly losing your attention to go on your soap box and make your dogmatic missionary speeches.
If you can't get this simple fact about the difference between proper names and common nouns through your head then I doubt that you can get deeper concepts.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Danish,
The fact that proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the reality of what is being named is indisputable. You are obviously ignorant of this simple logical fact. Maybe you think that every guy whose proper name is John is really a "Yahweh is gracious" (which is the meaning of John). I explained this before many times on this thread so ignorance cannot be your only issue but also slooooowness.
Maybe your mind would work faster if you focused on the subject instead of constantly losing your attention to go on your soap box and make your dogmatic missionary speeches.
If you can't get this simple fact about the difference between proper names and common nouns through your head then I doubt that you can get deeper concepts.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
What is your expert opinion of the following aya translated by Free-Minds from this site http//yaqb.org/
Free-Minds The camel and goat heavy with milk are amongst God's decrees. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should partake of them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Do you beleive that the above aya is correctly translated in your expert opinion and if it is not then how would you translate the above aya.
If you agree with the above translation, then a "yes" is sufficient. If you don't then just give your translation as you see fit in your expert opinion.
I am really not looking for a big discussion on how you translated the above aya. Just your expert translation of the above aya only. It is unnecessary for me, for you to explain me how you arrived at your translation of the above aya.
Thanks in advance.
Mohamed
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The fact that proper names are meaningless labels that don't reflect the reality of what is being named is indisputable.
What about
- White House
- United States Constitution
- Statue of Liberty
- Human Rights ?
A proper name does not need to be meaningless.
What makes a name a proper name is that it names a specific person, place, thing or idea.
http//www.mcwdn.org/grammar/nouncomprop.html
http//people.emich.edu/tseely/N&NP.htmSometimes the same word can function as both a common noun and a proper noun, where one such entity is special. For example "There can be many gods, but there is only one God."
http//www.answers.com/topic/nounPeace
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Peace JM,
I think what you are saying is correct.
But the word 'kaaba' isn't the only example. There are several. And facing a cube and bowing down to it makes no sense within the message of the quran and using our own logic.Peace Aladdin (Yar!),
The House of People!
Made of dark rough stones laid in a very simple manner with white chalk filling the fissures, the Kaaba is an empty cube - nothing else. You cannot but shiver and wonder about what you see Here ... There is no one! There is nothing to view! An empty room (cube) is visible. Is that all?!! Is this the center of our faith, prayers, love, life and death?
Questions and doubts arise in your mind. Where am I? What is here? What you see is the antithesis of your visual imaginations of the Kaaba. You might have perceived it as an architectural beauty (like a palace) whose ceilings covered a spiritual silence. Another possible portrayal was that of a high tomb housing the grave of an important human being - a hero, genius, imam or prophet! No - instead it is an open square, an empty room. It reflects no architectural skill, beauty, art, inscription, nor quality; and no graves are found there. There is nothing and nobody there to whom you can direct your attention, feelings and memories.
You will realize that there is nothing and nobody there to disturb your thoughts and feelings about God. The Kaaba, which you want to fly over to come into contact with the "absolute" and "eternal", is the roof for your feelings. This is something you were unable to achieve in your world of fragmentation and relativity. You could only be philosophical, but now you can see the "absolute", the one who has no direction - Allah! He is every where.
How good it is to see the Kaaba empty! It reminds you that your presence is for the sake of performing Hajj. It is not your destination. Moreover, it is a guide to show the direction.
Kaaba is only a cornerstone, a sign to show the road.
Having decided to move toward eternity, you begin the Hajj. It is an eternal movement toward Allah not toward the Kaaba. The Kaaba is the beginning and not the end - when no more can be done. It is the place where Allah, Ibrahim, Mohammed and people will meet. You will be present there only if your mind is not preoccupied with self-centered thoughts. You must be one of the people! Everyone is dressed in special garments. Being Allah's chastity and family you are honored by him . He has more enthusiasm toward this family than any one else. However, the Kaaba, His property and His house is called the "house of people".
This article is contradicting itself.
Moreover, it does not explain any of what it's saying. Why is kaaba a guide? why does God have to have a house in the first place if it's only purpose is to be ignored? If hajj is a movement toward Allah, then why spend all that money, risk your dear life and the lives of loved ones, and travel all the way to Mecca?
How is the kaaba the beginning and not the end?
All this fake philosophizing does nothing to support the cube.
On the other hand, I can post a few verses that completely contradict the idea of a sacred shrine that God wants us to pray toward. -
Peace JM,
- White House
It is a meaningless label. My neighbour has a house that is whiter than the white house. Does this mean that his house is the real White House? If the White House was painted orange for Halloween, it can still be referred to as the White House. Why? Because it is a meaningless label.
- United States Constitution
The word constitution is NOT a proper name. If it were a proper name like in say Constitution Avenue, then it would be meaningless. When you drive down Constitution Avenue you don't really drive on the constitution.
- Statue of Liberty
Meaningless. When I visited the Statue of Liberty, I didn't really find liberty inside. I am also certain that if the Statue of Liberty was shipped to Iraq, its people wouldn't suddenly be really liberated.
- Human Rights ?
The term human rights is not a proper name. If it was to be used as a proper name then I am sure that there are some dictators who have established a department of Human Rights in their government while they actually supress rights.
A proper name does not need to be meaningless.
Any meaning is brought about by looking at its common meaning, i.e., transforming it into a common noun. Otherwise, it remains a meaningless label.
People, this is all indisputable. For some people to be still stuck and not be able to understand this most basic of notions about the difference between common nouns and proper names is inexcusable. Com'on people let's progress here.
JM, to be arguing that names like the Statue of Liberty REALLY has anything to do with bringing liberty shows that if in this day and age supposedly educated people are so easily tricked by proper names then it is no wonder that 8th century people were so easily tricked without the need for a large scale conspiracy.
Peace,
Ayman
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Hello Ayman,
Your persistence to claim that proper nouns/names are meaningless, outwardly defies its very existence in which any name of any kind is brought about by its host. Language, by virtue of thought, plays a key role in expressing and defining a subject by a word or combination of words and thus, may differ in meanings of the same word within the same language and as well as in other language usage, be it proper or common. A proper name can also be dignified by choosing a specific meaning from the several meanings of any given word from its language standpoint. Proper names are also chosen and identified to give a ?sense? and ?reference? to any thing so as to distinguish from the rest and/or from the same order of commonality. Most words can be traced out to as far back as humanly possible and some can never be known. The etymology and lexicography of a proper name (including common nouns) in one language can also be found originated from other language/s or combination of languages and can take a drastic orientation in spelling, pronunciation, understanding and eventually its meaning. If everything was based on common names in its strict designations, it would be impossible to communicate and one hell to live.
At this moment, I?d like to ask you if Allah is a proper name?