MANY DISCREPENCIES ON THE FREE MIND FRONT PAGE
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Salam sister "PM",
Oh, u think the current bible contains perfect message? Jesus, a human being is God??????? Perfect truth??? Jesus died for our sins??? God died for man's sins???? Perfect Message??? Not according to my understanding. And that is why I dont believe the present bible is the word of God. And not becoz it doesnt have a mathematical miracle in it. wink
JK- And again you dont read my post carefully. Im talking about CERTAIN SCRIPTURES in the Bible. The Bible is a collection of scriptures, you know. The psalms for example contains much truth.
Well, Well ! Let me correct u here. And please dont take the liberty of telling me what I believe, without any knowledge of it. I believe the entire Quran is from God. All verses.
JK- May i ask on what premise. Without code-19 the boundaries of the Quran are undefined as mentioned and explained in my article "The difference between Quran and Mushaf" which i sent to you before.
My understanding of Quran and God, is that God says what he does in Quran, with & for a just reason always. There are no rules in the Quran for the heck of it. God doesnt have rules in Quran without a reason/sense/purpose. While some focus on the rules itself, I try to focus also on the fulfillment of the reason/purpose also. Anyways, This is one's approach towards understanding Quran and God. God tells me to use my reason and understanding, and so I will.
And never did I say I believe in only certain verses from Quran. So, Please dont speak for me.JK- Ok sorry. But this means you take certain verses to be for a particular time only while GOD is calling upon the believers in general in those verses where pounihsment for theft or 100 lashes is mentioned. Thus those laws cannot be time bound logically speaking.
U should. Everyone should and many do !
Who says bible, geeta or vedas dont have good parts? Ofcourse we can follow, wisdoM and truth from anywhere.JK- Yes BUT NOT AS THE WORD/LAW OF GOD and thats the point. Even if a law/word seems perfectly Divine to you in the Bible or any other book you can still not claim it to be from GOD or even that it is universally good FOR ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT IS GOOD FOR ALL OF US IN ALL TIMES. That's why we cannot rely on mere good words in a scripture. Do you get it now?
God is the source of all wisdom, truth and goodness, be it from bible, geeta or veda or anywhere else. Dont we take meditation and Yoga from hindu teachings????????
JK- GOD has put and encoded all those of His Wise Sayings and Laws relevant to us in the Quran. And we dont follow meditation and yoga from hindu teachings. Who told you that?
Thats crap! The message of Quran is whats important. Not some number.
Why 19? Why not 3 or 8 or 11 or 13 ????????
U r basing ur whole belief on God on a number.JK- The above phrase youve just asked makes you part of those mentioned in 7431
We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) ... (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
This is exactly what youve done. You are asking why 19, why not anything else. It is GOD's decision that He chose code-19 and theres no one NO ONE to question GOD why He did so. We see the proof and we gladly accept it. And for your information my belief in GOD is dependant NEITHER on Quran nor code-19.There is nothing 'God' about ur code 19. U r basing ur belief of God on a number.
U want to see God's miracles? Go watch a bird fly. Go watch a child talk. Go watch the snow, the rain. Look all around u. U will find miracles of God everywhere.JK- I know and i appreciate all of them. But you dont seem to appreciate code-19 miracle which is according to 7435 one of the greatest.
U dont? Then why do u need code 19 to believe in Quran?
JK- GOD has sent It and He wanted it to be so. I accepted His sogn and obeyed. Henceforth i see no other way.
Becoz the belief is blind and crude. Sensible people dont believe in any book, becoz it has stuctural pattern in it, but becoz of the truth in the message.
JK- THIS IS NOT TRUE! Both bros Edip and Bahman are very sensible people, you know. Edip is a philosopher, jurist, skepic, reseacher and was an ex-sunni scholar who has written and published many books. Brother Bahman is an electrical engineer. Dr . Richard Voss is a PHd in matjematics and has shown the Quran's code to be true also at http//19.org/index.php?id=26,57,0,0,1,0
Will u believe in a book of medicine, if it has the correct facts and truth, or if it has a structual pattern in it?
JK- Ill first have to see practical aspects in order to confirm whether the things written in that book are correct. Just believing in a book of medicine without confirmation would be stupid and hazardous. And there's a differnce between a medical book which is time bound and the Quran WHICH IS FOR ALL TIME as you claim to believe yourself. Hence we may find things unacceptable to us in the Quran so we have to have an alternative method to believe in those. Code-19 gives us jst that. It seems that you are very short sighted.
I dont know what is with bahman or any other code 19 person. All I can say is its a very blind belief, just like people in the olden days believed blindly.
JK- ITS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE!! EXACTLY THE OPPSITE. YOUR THE ONE WHOS BELIEVING BLINDLY. WE HABE DONE OUR THOROUGH ANALYSIS AND NEVER EVER FOLLOW ANYTHING BLINDLY. WE USED THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND FOUND A CONSISTENT INTERLOCKING PATTERN IN THE QURAN BASED ON NO.19 WHICH YOU DONT BOTHER TO STUDY.
Yeah, I skimmed through ur article. Didnt find anything intelligent about it though. It was quite the contrary. No offence meant.
Peace!
JK- You must have read part 0 only. If thats the case then know that that part was just a repetetion of a code-19 REJECTOR. The real article begins in part 1 through 28. You should not only skim through it BUT read it very carefully and read everything, the whole article without prejudice. Then come back and well discuss the points you dont find intelligent right here. If your intellectuially honest youll do that. GOD Bless!
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JKRead the article "Intelligent people's guide to code-19" and then come back here and we'll discuss it. GOD Bless!
Johnny, i've read it and as I told you, 19 doesn't pass the Quranic criteria for me. I don't mind if you think im a kafir, munaafiq or whatever. However, I'd appreciate it if in the spirit of efficiency, you don't assume that everyone who doens't agree with you hasn't read the works you recomended.
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Salam "mquran",
Johnny, i've read it
JK- You read the whole article from part 1-28, really?
and as I told you, 19 doesn't pass the Quranic criteria for me. I don't mind if you think im a kafir, munaafiq or whatever. However, I'd appreciate it if in the spirit of efficiency, you don't assume that everyone who doens't agree with you hasn't read the works you recomended.
JK- No if youve really read the article and you find something is not right then your welcome to present it here so we can discuss it. Thats what i expect from intellectually honest persons. If then, after all that peaceful and intellectual discussion, you still dont agree then to you is your way and to me is mine. Peace. GOD Bless!
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JK- No if youve really read the article and you find something is not right then your welcome to present it here so we can discuss it. Thats what i expect from intellectually honest persons. If then, after all that peaceful and intellectual discussion, you still dont agree then to you is your way and to me is mine. Peace. GOD Bless
'lakum deenukum waliya deeni' is something you say to AL-KAFIROON (109/6). So am i kafir for rejecting code 19?
Sunnis if you don't believe in sahih hadith (authenticated and criteria set by our scholars) ur kafir
19ers if you dont believe in the code 19 (authenticated and criteria set by RK), ur a kafir.Similarities all over , arent there!
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'lakum deenukum waliya deeni' is something you say to AL-KAFIROON (109/6). So am i kafir for rejecting code 19?
Sunnis if you don't believe in sahih hadith (authenticated and criteria set by our scholars) ur kafir
19ers if you dont believe in the code 19 (authenticated and criteria set by RK), ur a kafir.Similarities all over , arent there!
JK- Comparing code-19 to hadith is the most stupid thing one can do for one is part of the Quran while the other is not. 2ndly hadith are sayings wheras code-19 is a code, a pattern integrated in the Quran. And yes in my view those who have received the sign of code-19, thereafter reject it are unbelievers. So i may well say what i said and what else should i say. Should i start slaughtering those who dont believe like myself like most sunnis and shias do to those who are spostates of their corrupt teachings? NO, i wont do that. You are free to believe in what you want and to reject what you want and so after discussions each goes his own way. Simple. GOD Bless!
PS Im very skeptical of those who claim to believe in Quran Alone but dont believe in code-19 which is part of it. I sometimes think if they are somehow paid by sunnis in order to lead the people away from code-19 and finally from the Quran Alone too by claiming "see, now you guys dont have any proof for Quran, hence you require hadith for Quran". Bro Bahman also shares my view regarding this. I wont for another trick of the hadithis.
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JK- Comparing code-19 to hadith is the most stupid thing one can do for one is part of the Quran while the other is not. 2ndly hadith are sayings wheras code-19 is a code, a pattern integrated in the Quran
Code-19 is a pattern which YOU PEOPLE set. Nowhere in al-quraan does it say 'count the multiples of 19'. You people set that criteria, so al-quraan ISN'T al-furqaan for you. It's so simple Im surprised you don't get it. I'll try one last time
RK found that there are 114 suras in al-quraan, 19/6. Al-quraan never told him to count that way. He did it himself and if anyone says 'at-tauba and al-anfaal are one', he'll be ready to kafir-ise them.
So you're comitting takfeer based on your imagined criteria.
. And yes in my view those who have received the sign of code-19, thereafter reject it are unbelievers. So i may well say what i said and what else should i say.
Good stuff. I won't come to your islamic domain then. Where is it again, just for my information?
Should i start slaughtering those who dont believe like myself like most sunnis and shias do to those who are spostates of their corrupt teachings? NO, i wont do that. You are free to believe in what you want and to reject what you want and so after discussions each goes his own way. Simple. GOD Bless!
Ah, thanks for allowing me to live.
PS Im very skeptical of those who claim to believe in Quran Alone but dont believe in code-19 which is part of it. I sometimes think if they are somehow paid by sunnis in order to lead the people away from code-19 and finally from the Quran Alone too by claiming "see, now you guys dont have any proof for Quran, hence you require hadith for Quran". Bro Bahman also shares my view regarding this. I wont for another trick of the hadithis.
Gosh, you're in even deeper that I thought. Oh well, its your life. I'm pretty happy with the even the infinitesimal insights I have and I've never needed any code. al-quraan has deconstructed the world for me and it could only do this without the shackles of hadith.
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Salam "mquran",
Code-19 is a pattern which YOU PEOPLE set. Nowhere in al-quraan does it say 'count the multiples of 19'. You people set that criteria, so al-quraan ISN'T al-furqaan for you. It's so simple Im surprised you don't get it. I'll try one last time
JK- We people didnt set it. RK DISCOVERED IT BY GOD's LEAVE. Thats it. The pattern was already there set by GOD. GOD reveals His signs at the time and place He desires and not where and when ceratin people want it to be.
RK found that there are 114 suras in al-quraan, 19/6. Al-quraan never told him to count that way. He did it himself and if anyone says 'at-tauba and al-anfaal are one', he'll be ready to kafir-ise them.
JK- RK was inspired by GOD to reveal the pattern just like Muhammad was inpired with the Quran. Simple. Did you want GOD to use another method in order to convince you? Sorry dude, this is not how it works.
So you're comitting takfeer based on your imagined criteria.
JK- RK was a scientist and employed the scientific method on the Quran. He did not expect to find anything at first. He was almost always objective. Brother Edip and others have conformed this as they worked with RK. Then in 1974 it was realized by this same method that the Quran indeed had such a pattern. If you deny the code-19 in Quran then you might as well deny all modern scieitifc discoveries including dicoveries of the century and throw them in the garbage bin.
Good stuff. I won't come to your islamic domain then. Where is it again, just for my information?
JK- You dont need to.
Ah, thanks for allowing me to live.
JK- What i meant is that we peacefully go our own ways in the end if we cannot agree.
Gosh, you're in even deeper that I thought. Oh well, its your life. I'm pretty happy with the even the infinitesimal insights I have and I've never needed any code. al-quraan has deconstructed the world for me and it could only do this without the shackles of hadith.
JK- Who was the 1st and foremost one to come up with the Quran Alone ideology in our era? RK. Pervezis although claiming to believe in Quran Alone accept Muhammad as the perfect guide and leader amongst all humanity. Which site do most people come across before they become Quran Aloners? www.submission.org . And then after meeting people like Zlatan, Ayman , etc, who while claiming to believe in Quran Alone reject code-19, they join them calling RK a hypocrite and disregarding code-19. Strange aint it? So either you have fallen into their trap or your one of them. I see no other alternative. GOD Bless!
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Salam "mquran",
Man, do you ever read the Quran for yourself?
Look at 74/4 Wa L Tamnun Tastakthir/And You don't expect gain'
You're telling me a CODE expects gain ? Oh boy, please.Then look at 74/5Wa Lirabbika Fbir /And for your Lord REMAIN PATIENT.
A code needs to be told this? Sorry dude, unacceptable.
JK- Yes i do read the Quran myself. Have read it many times. Where did you get this translation from. It is wrong. Heres the correct one
Purify your garment.*
*744 Quran is the garment containing the secret code. This refers to removing 9128-129.
Forsake what is wrong.
Also compare this to Y. Ali's and Pickthaal's if you doubt RK's
744
Yusuf Ali
And thy garments keep free from stain!
Pickthal
Thy raiment purify,
745
Yusuf Ali
And all abomination shun!
Pickthal
Pollution shun!
GOD Bless! -
Salam "mquran",
74/4 Wa L Tamnun Tastakthir
JK- Wait a min mquran. You are quoting 746&7 perhaps
Be content with your lot.
This may refer to GOD having limited code-19 in the sense that people would still have an excuse to deny it as we can clearly see in your case.
Steadfastly commemorate your Lord.
In the context these can also refer to 19 while i do agree that they may have referred to Muhammad in his time. Verses in the Quran can have different meanings in different times. Many a times GOD hides multiple messages in various verses for future generations. Everything glorifies GOD. GOD even swears in parts of the Quran by the mountains and other non material things. Youll find a lot of this poetic style in the last suras following sura 74. He even states that the sun and the moon prostrate to him. So i dont see any problem here. GOD Bless! -
In the context these can also refer to 19 while i do agree that they may have referred to Muhammad in his time. Verses in the Quran can have different meanings in different times. Many a times GOD hides multiple messages in various verses for future generations. Everything glorifies GOD. GOD even swears in parts of the Quran by the mountains and other non material things. Youll find a lot of this poetic style in the last suras following sura 74. He even states that the sun and the moon prostrate to him. So i dont see any problem here. GOD Bless!
So it only could be referring to the code or to Muhammad ibn Abdullah?
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If it refers to the code
Are you saying Allah is telling the code to ASBIR (command form of SABR). So is the code alive and needing to sabr ? -
If refers to Muhammad ibn Abdullah
I guess its not needed now. Al-quraan is hudan linnaas not hudan li Muhammad.
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Salam "mquran",
So it only could be referring to the code or to Muhammad ibn Abdullah?
- If it refers to the code
Are you saying Allah is telling the code to ASBIR (command form of SABR). So is the code alive and needing to sabr ?
JK- As i said GOD uses these type of metaphors frequently in the last suras 74 and after. I understand that code-19 will be revealed gradually more and more which i see is true since bro bahman and especially brother Asad(see his discoveries at www.y19.net) are unravelling more and more penomenal parts of the patern of 19 each day. It started with RK, who was a messenger of GOD BUT it didnt stop with him. Code-19 wanted to rush itself with Rashad(through the humans) but GOD commaded to wait and so it did. This is exactly what happened so i really dont understand how you or anyone else can deny this?
- If refers to Muhammad ibn Abdullah
I guess its not needed now. Al-quraan is hudan linnaas not hudan li Muhammad.
JK- It probably did in his time. Now it doesnt ansd your right the Quran is onhoing guidance for all mankind. Therefore the verses are now clearly understood to refer to code-19. GOD Bless!
- If it refers to the code
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peace all, and let's not resort to calling names okay?
first of all I believe in the code 19, but the 19 to me only signifies how amazing the Quran is, and thats the only thing code 19 proves, yes I do believe RK really went out of his way and made a lot calculation mistakes, BUT there are TOO many BASIC things about 19 are too miraculous to ignore. The ONLY purpose of 19 is to prove how Amazing the Quran is, and thus makes it easier to accept for the future generations. It's also insane to call RK an idiot. You can have your opinion, but you need to investigate first before you arrive at that opinion IMO. All he promoted was the worship of One God. And thats what I adhere to. His message from the Quran which is God's message thru him to worship GOD alone. Now i don't believe in his appendices, footnotes, wrong calculations, forced claculations, etc..... But his overall message was to worship God alone, and your going to condemn him for that? Is this about your ego? Or what the overall message should be?
You ask why 19? why not 20, or 21?
19 is a unique number, it looks the same in arabic and english, 1 is the first and 9 is the last number. Which signifies God HE is the First and The Last.
Number 19 is the numerical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural languages, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. The number 19, therefore proclaims the First commandment in all the scriptures that there is only ONE GOD.
What's wrong with that?
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The 'Bismillah' the first verse consists of 19 arabic letters.
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114 Chapters in the Quran; 19 x 6 (also to my knowledge there are 114 elements in the periodic table)
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From the missing Basmalla of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalla of Sura 27, there are
precisely 19 Suras. -
The famous first revelation (961-5) consists of 19 words.
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This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters, & 76=19X4
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Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of 19 verses.
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This first Chronological sura is placed atop the last 19 suras.
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The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of 19 words.
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The Quran mention 30 different whole numbers throughout,
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,19,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,99,100,200,300,1000,2000,
3000,5000,50,000, & 100,000.
The sum of these numbers is 162146 = 19X8534 -
The Quran's dominant message is that there is only "ONE GOD"
The word 'One", in Arabic "Wahid" in reference to God occurs 19 times
throughout the Quran. -
he word "Quran" occurs in the Quran 58 times, with one of them referring to
"another Quran" in 1015, therefore, if excluded, the frequency of "this Quran" in
the Quran is 57, or 19X3 -
The first Pillar of Islam is stated in 318 as "La Elaaha Ella Hoo".(There is no
other God besides Him). This most important expression occurs in 19 suras.
To me its more than just coincidience if you look at it from an un-biased perspective, but seems to me there's a lot of people with 'i know everything' mentality' and ego issues.
peace
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Peace all,
I have read IN DETAIL the articles referenced by jonny, in addition to articles on code 19 at the submission.org website and many other websites including quran.org and after using logic, reason, intellect, and knowledge have come to the conclusion that code 19 is just a "fitna" for the disbelievers and has nothing to do with proving qur'aan being from Allah.
For example, here is a "mathematical chapter like that unto qur'aan" made by an ordinary person IN JUST 4 HOURS, that meets all the requirements of the code 19 mentioned in a challenge issued by submission.org. This chapter has all the properties of code 19 in it that are supposedly only in the qur'aan, PLUS MORE. This article alone is enough to debunk the so called code 19 miracle. Please see it for yourself at the following link
http//monotheism.faithweb.com/response.html
Also please check out the following link for a comprehensive exposition of the inconsistent and wrong methodology used by RK to invent the code 19 in the qur'aan, along with the miscounts
http//bahai-library.com/essays/nineteen.html
Sometimes we can even learn from the disbelievers ! The article at the following link is an example, which is from an anti-islam website but contains OBJECTIVE and SCIENTIFIC articles at various links that conclusively debunk the code 19
http//answering-islam.org.uk/Religions/Numerics/
Also please check out the following link for numerous articles that debunk code 19
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/code_19.htm
All these articles, along with brother Ayman's excellent article on the idiot's guide to code 19, leave no doubt in any one's mind that the code 19 is nothing but a "fitna" for the disbelievers.
Jonny, before you start asking me to read your referenced articles, I have already read them in great detail, and if you want to discuss things in those articles with me, then I might do that ONLY if you read ALL the articles at ALL the links provided by me and provide your refutations to ALL of them. Good luck !
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Peace "tanveermd",
"monoteistweb(Ian Mcnamara)" has been answred LOOOOOOONG ago by bro Bahman at http//www.y19.net/challenge.html
"bahai library(lomax)" has been answered by bro Edip Yuksel LOOOOOOOOOONG ago at http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htm
"Hardys" and "answring-islams" silly claims only show that theyve not undertsood the code and this would be clear when you, my friend, now go on to read the latest article "Intellgent people's guide to code-19" at http//19.org/?books (Parts 1-2
GOD Bless!
