restrict them in the homes until death
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Salaams all,
never gave much thoughts to this ayah before can you/anyone enlighten me.
415
And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.are they really left to die in their homes?
Gods Blessings.
Hello
The translation above is wrong
(15)
" ", is a plural and not for doubles, it means if any of the women commit adultry
for me, if my wife commits adultry, I dont have to lock her home, i will just lock her in the highway and I will bring home a better wife who fears Allah for real
peace
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Salam,
Forgive my ignorance, is this talking about female homosexuality?Salam
I don't think so, I believe it is talking in general of any sexual act outside the wedlock
Peace
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Salaams all,
never gave much thoughts to this ayah before can you/anyone enlighten me.
415
And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.are they really left to die in their homes?
Gods Blessings.
Hello
The translation above is wrong
(15)
" ", is a plural and not for doubles, it means if any of the women commit adultry
salam Ahmed and all .
adultery/zina is not mentioned in the verse . its about lewdness/fahesha among women . and 416 about lewdness among men . correct me if i m wrong . -
Salaams all,
never gave much thoughts to this ayah before can you/anyone enlighten me.
415
And the two women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.are they really left to die in their homes?
Gods Blessings.
Hello
The translation above is wrong
(15)
" ", is a plural and not for doubles, it means if any of the women commit adultry
salam Ahmed and all .
adultery/zina is not mentioned in the verse . its about lewdness/fahesha among women . and 416 about lewdness among men . correct me if i m wrong .Peace brother Salahdin
I acceot your point bro, because 416 says "Alazan" which means a couple of males, this incline a homsexual act of course between two males
and based on 416, 415 should be understood as a homosexual act between women,
my point though that "Allati" is a female plural, therefore the verse should be understood as an orgi between more than two females
Not sure bro, I guess it is safer to say i don't know, but sure the verse may not be talking about adultry, I accept that
peace be with you
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Ahmed,
So basically, if a woman commits lewdness she is to be locked in her home until her death or until God finds some other way.....even if she was to repent?
But the men who commits lewdness, if he repents, he's to be left alone?
salaam
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Salam,
If we look at the verses collectively it could be about homosexuality. If we look at them individually it could be understood to mean adultry with women and homosexuality with men.
I tried going to openburhan but was unable to pull up the verse and look at the root and where the word fahishata is used elsewhere in the Quran to get a better understanding. I didn't have any luck (yet) on yaqb.org either.
Any info anyone else has will be helpful.
Shukron -
4.015 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
is it fair to keep women confined to their houses for their entire life for the sin they committed? wht if they repent to Allah later on then????
4.016 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
if men repent so is Allah ordering is to leave them alone that is do not punish them for their sin since they have repented ,
does the same apply for women as well ???4.017 Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
4.018 Of no effect is the repentance of those who
continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievousafter reading these verses does it mean tht if any one commits adultery but repents later on should be forgiven and his or her punishment should be forgotten
24.2The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
should women be flogged 100 times or should they be confined to their houses ?
pls help with these verses i am really disturbed
i want to understand these verses in a better n in a positive way, pls do help me with this
i am not questioning Allah almighty , i just prayed to Him askin him to guide me to the right path , clear off all the doubts in my mind , ease my difficulties and make my heart be in peace
i am in doubt my heart is not in peace i am distured ple try understanding my situation n help me , this is related to my faith the most important thing in this world for me , it is not a joke, pls help -
Peace samina. Dont worry too much,if you believe in your ability to understand, then you might solve this matter. I will state a few ideas of my own understanding of these verses;
The verses are dealing with indecency/injustice commited by men or women or both.(zina and fashaa are both indecent,but not necessarily the same exact thing) I believe the verses are talking about letting other people know if people are committing indecency without repenting.(the word for 100 strikes(jild) can also mean show or witness in arabic) As for the women,it could mean if they repent keep them in the system(bayt/house) and if they want to keep to indecency then another way can be made apparent. Do you think it means if a woman commits indecency once that she would be kept in her house till death? That is not just if she repents,is it? Follow your conscience samina and you will realise the truth you need. No one person or force can know everything. Peace. Take it easy. -
Ahmed,
So basically, if a woman commits lewdness she is to be locked in her home until her death or until God finds some other way.....even if she was to repent?
But the men who commits lewdness, if he repents, he's to be left alone?
salaam
Peace sister
it seems to me that the males will have a harsher punishment, the word used for the males is " ", which means hurt them, or harm them, we dont see this word in the women case, we only read that they should be locked but not to harm them right?
anyway i guess these two verses are mutashabihat and for me as a submitter I will not chase the meanings as per 37 and will accept it from Allah exactly as the Muhkamat verses
whatever laws in these 2 verses, it won't consern me as I know neither me nor my wife will commit fahisha inshallah
peace
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Salam,
If we look at the verses collectively it could be about homosexuality. If we look at them individually it could be understood to mean adultry with women and homosexuality with men.
I tried going to openburhan but was unable to pull up the verse and look at the root and where the word fahishata is used elsewhere in the Quran to get a better understanding.salam.
"fahesha" includes homosexuality . "fahesha" is what Lut's people used to commit i.e gay sex ., the Quran tells us . -
anyway i guess these two verses are mutashabihat and for me as a submitter I will not chase the meanings as per 37 and will accept it from Allah exactly as the Muhkamat verses
salam bro Ahmed .
how are these verse mutashabihat ? how do u distinguish between muhkamat and mutashabehat ? -
Peace all. Just a few ideas regarding these verses on indecency.
Bayt can mean system or house or a way of dealing. masaka can mean keep or retain. yatawaffa can mean they are continually following something. mawt can mean physical or spiritual 'death'.
These verses could be saying if a woman(or man) are committing indecency and four witnesses(including those involved) do witness that they have commited indecency and then repent(confessing can be part of repenting) then keep them in the system of peace(ie dont harm them). However if they continue with this indecency and die(spiritually) then strive against their injustice in a decent and proportional manner(quisas) which does not cause/lead to more harm.(ie advising them as to the potential consequences of their behaviour,peer pressure,non-cooperation towards the harm they can do etc.) Its about damage limitation,not fighting evil with more evil. we can Fight evil with what is better,more suitable and just.
Peace. -
anyway i guess these two verses are mutashabihat and for me as a submitter I will not chase the meanings as per 37 and will accept it from Allah exactly as the Muhkamat verses
salam bro Ahmed .
how are these verse mutashabihat ? how do u distinguish between muhkamat and mutashabehat ?Peace mate
I use a simple logic bro, if the arabic verse can be understood in many ways, then it is Mutashabihat, if there is only one understanding to the verse then it is Muhkamat
and because 415 and 416 have a few issues that can be undersood in different ways
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Allati in 415 is for a group of women, but it can also be used for a couple of women
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The action described "Fahisha" can be understood in many ways as well
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In verse 416 where it says "Alazan", the word is for a couple of males but it can also be used for a mix between males and females, like "Alazin" which can refer to a group of males and females together, this will lead to another couple of understanding in here, is Male and Female, or two males?
therefore I concluded the two verses are mutshabihat and any true submitter and a knowledgable human )knwldge about Allah) must abide by 37 and don't chase the meanings of these verses UNLESS it happens that my partner commit Fahisha, I guess I will not be able to excute the law in the verse because it is Mutshabihat therefore I will let her go, no locking, no bashing, no crying, just the highway
Peace be with you mate
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Peace all. the word jild in arabic can apply to what is brought to witness.(jild also means skin,which is something that can be hidden or witnessed)
100 witnesses(jild) is a phrase which can be used to signify a literal amount or a large amount. In arabic numbers can sometimes be used metaphorically,just like in english several can mean an indeterminate amount like many. An example is in the quran; 'if you ask for their forgiveness 70(sabaeyn) times allah wont forgive the continual wrong-doers'. Now this does not mean literally 70 or that would mean they would be forgiven if i asked 71 times. This shows to me that this 70 just represents a numerous amount of times. Applying this to 100 witnesses would just mean a large amount of people would witness that these people are people who indulge in zina knowingly. This is backed up by the verse stating later that a party of the believers should witness the 'punishment. This is a an example of constructive peer pressure. The verse about the prophets wives and the women from the right hand(for want of a better term) having double or half the punishment(200 or 50 witnesses, if they commit indecency without repenting) reflects the fact that the prophets wives should have more access to the truth while the others have a lesser access to the truth or have other factors relating to there background that demands a lesser peer-pressure. -
Peace. Bayt in arabic can mean house,or system, or a way of doing/dealing with something/someone. If you deal with someone who is being decent with you(ie peaceful or islamic) then your 'bayt' or way of dealing with them would be what a muslim should do.(ie be peaceful back). If somebody behaved unjustly to you then your 'bayt'(way of dealing with them) would either be making their unjust behaviour not affect you(by overlooking it) or if you are compelled then you would repel their behaviour by appropriate,equivelant behaviour(quisas). Now this behaviour or way of dealing(bayt) would normally be harmful(haram) but in this instance the need to neutralise the greater harm may require a small harm. Thus we have an explanation for the verse mentioning 'bayt-al-haram. If we apply this to the verse about the women in the bayt,then it could be that if the women witness against themselves(ie repent and acknowledge the sin) then i deal with them in the normal way(peacefully) until(or unless) they 'die' spiritually(mawt) and keep commiting injustisce without acknowledging/repenting,then they can be dealt with by methods which are normally not needed.(eg mass peer pressure). The other way that allah could make a change,is if something new arises in circumstances/evidences which requires a new way of dealing.(bayt).
Peace. -
I think we're blinded by the verse change. If you ignore the change of verse, you will realise quickly that leaving them alone after repentance should apply to both women and men. I think the same can be said for the punishment. If you read the two verses together, it would seem that the punishment would apply for both men and women, as there is no specific mention of the men's punishment, but it does come right after the punishment of detaining. So, would it not make sense that both be detained until they repent (or death if they choose not to repent)?