4 witness
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Hi sawtooth,
I read a story a while back about a case involving a brother that raped a sister and produced a child from it. the girl was hanged and the boy recieved a briefe caning. why would that be?
In most societies which are bound to traditional practices and beliefs, what u described may be practised so. Men are considered quite superior to women. And its more like woman's role is to serve men. So, yeah, in those cases, U cant expect fair treatment or trials for women.
Peace!
See now it's THAT kind of inequality I support fighting to change. I can respect others wanting to keep a certain dichotomy between men and women that has all but disappeared in the US and other western countries, (It sure hasn't worked very well) but when a woman can be KILLED by LAW for being RAPED, while her rapists gets a slap on the wrist, something needs to be done. There is NO way to justify that.
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I have not read the koran nor am I referring to it here. i am only referring to the laws referred to as "Islamic law" that uses such unequal punishmants
Off topic-But what exactly is the point of doing that? I think everyone would agree with you that such inequality is wrong, and very unislamic...making your general point a bit moot. Which is why others are asking you specifically about the Quran.
On topic- I think the 4 witnesses speaks about those who know of what happened, not necessarily those who saw it. If a person commits adultery and tells their best friend, then the BF becomes a witness. I think anyone that has information about the adultery can be a witness, even let's say the staff at a motel where a couple commits the act. There are also those who see how the couple interacts, so if you are there when a couple is flirting with each other indecently, then I think you could be a witness in a case for adultery. Of course, there are strong witnesses and weak witnesses. That is why 4 are mandated, so even if one person lies or forgets, with all the testimony of the 4 people, it is hard to convict someone who is actually innocent. Keep in mind that the witnesses must be good muslims and the testimony of known liars is not taken anyway, so this also helps.
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It's just that I have come up against people that use islam to justify such punishments. I have never figured out exactly how they rationalise that. Same for this four witness thing. It just seems to me that so much of it is made to let men off the hook and women under their thumbs. I ask questions because I have yet to really get a plausible answer that's all. I understand completely the difference between the koran and Islamic law, which is why I did not bring the Koran into it. But I also don't know who to ask other than Muslims.
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Peace Sawtooth- The usual rendering of the 4 witnesses verse against women is in cases of rape. The shariah applies the use of 4 witnesses in order to prove rape. This is obviously stupid as there probably will not be many witnesses for a rape, at least not if the rape is done discreetly. Most rapes are done by people the victim knows, so it is most likely discreet and unexpected, making the 4 witnesses rule quite useless I think. So, when the shariah followers use this rule, the only person left standing is the woman who is pregnant and unmarried, so they punish her. Simply put, people who follow this law are irrational and mysognistic. It is their aim to punish women as they feel as if women are evil. After all is said and done, their laws are unquranic. The Quran allows for a woman who is accused of such a wrongdoing to swear on God(a very good example of this was Aisha who was accused of adultery) that she did not do this crime. If she does swear, then it is assumed that if she is lying, she will be amply punished in the next life. Also, there is a verse that says that those who harass women can be exiled or killed depending on the severity of the harassment. So, I think the Quran is very pro-woman in this area. Leave the shariah followers to themselves. I hope that helps...and others please correct me if I am wrong.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth and all,
In many cultures, as well all know, men are held at a higher status than women, which is incorrect and is caused by people being in charge of the world who have not grown spiritually.
Now, regarding the message of "Koran", it is my opinion that many of the stories are told in a manner that is in accordance with the "yin and yang" of the event. For example, all of the prophets and messengers are explained as MALE, but that is because delivering the message is a YANG event, meaning it is expressed outwardly to others, it is the light rather than darkness, etc.
Then we have another view in the stroy of Mariam, she is the one who recieved the divine seed of The God, it is symbolic of the Nafs(feminine) which is a YIN principle (incoming, recieving, darkness, etc)