Was The Messenger Of The Qur'aan An Orphan?
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Peace to you,
Peace Anwar
I'm sorry bro the Arabic that is taught at all arabic countries at all stages is the Leterary Arabic which is the same as the Arabic Quran, there is no difference whatsoever as far as the Arab language proffessional are concerned
This is where you are wrong. Unfortunately the fact that al-lughatul-arabiyatul-mu'aasirah is commonly mislabeled as al-lughatul-arabeeyatul-fus-haa has misled you to think that they are the same. Until you can recognize that they are different you will continue to be misguided. But I'm sure this will go against certain cultural ideas that you have, so you can choose to agree with me or not, but read up more on your language and you will start to see the light. This a fallacy of many Arabs, you are not the only one, that will definitely impede your religious understanding. I'm glad to be blessed with a group of Arab Arabic teachers who would plainly disagree with you. Some of which are beyond qualified in the ancient classical Arabic and the modern Arabic. I have had these converstions with some of them also, so don't think I am just a poor, ignorant and misguided non-Arabic speaker.
You fluent Arab speakers here could be of a great aid to the Quran if you could recognize this truth. Layth suffers from this belief too which is based in some cultural misconceptions that have sprung out of Arab Nationalism and its interrelation with Islam. Recognizing the Classical Arabic itself has had different eras of development and change, which have affected the language enough so that old and ancient phrases seem awkward or unintelligible to the modern Arabic speaker is necessary to be able to really understand and promote the message of the Koran. The eras or epochs have also been minimal but substantial enough so that Classical Arabic can, should and (is by certain educated individuals) classified into different eras Pre-Islamic or Quranic Classical Arabic, Islamic Classical Arabic and Modern Classical Arabic. The last change however has been the most drastic because it has been a systematic (although not absolute) reduction of the Classical Arabic rules, grammar and vocabulary which have been accepted as valid since the Pre-Islamic Classical Arabic period.
Modern Literary Arabic is close to, and pulls from, the ancient classical Arabic of the Quran but they are not the same, and Modern literary Arabic lacks much of ancient classical Arabic and at the same time uses those modern and post-quranic meanings that the language of the Quran would not and cannot discuss because it's topics are limited to the capacity of the language of the time of the Quran. So it will not talk of dabbaabaat (tanks) or taa'iraat (Airplants), sayyaraat (cars or vehicles) or qita&a ghiyaar (spare parts) or many of the topics which use ancient Classical Arabic words but which go beyond the Quran's circle of expressions.
Secondly, I looked up the word in Wehr's dictionar and dictionary that encompasses both modern Arabic and older school arabic and the word yateem can mean 'alone or solitary'. So I'm definitely taking the side of those who proclaimed that yateem can mean that because it is in the dictionary of al-lughatul-arabiyatul-fushaa. Because this word can mean that there is no reason to exlude it. That would be unjust.
If you disagreed with everything I have said here we might as well sum up our talks here. If that is the case, go ahead and make your rebuttal, but I'm sure I'll have nothing to say to you after that. Let's see.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace to you,
Peace Anwar
I'm sorry bro the Arabic that is taught at all arabic countries at all stages is the Leterary Arabic which is the same as the Arabic Quran, there is no difference whatsoever as far as the Arab language proffessional are concerned
This is where you are wrong. Unfortunately the fact that a al-lughatul-arabiyatul-mu'aasirah is commonly mislabeled as al-lughatul-arabeeyatul-fus-haa has misled you to think that they are the same.
Salam Anwar
Where you got this info from, that the lugha Arabia Masria is not the same as lugha Arabia fusha?, this is a clear cut mistake because I never heard of such thing called lugha Arabia Masria, the following info is from wikipedia
The term "Arabic" may refer either to literary Arabic or Modern Standard Arabic or to the many localized varieties of Arabic commonly called "colloquial Arabic." Arabs consider literary Arabic as the standard language and tend to view everything else as mere dialects. Literary Arabic, al-luatu-l-arabiyyatu-l-fu (Literally "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? ى refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more articulate language of the Qur'an. (The expression media here includes most television and radio, and all written matter, including all books, newspapers, magazines, documents of every kind, and reading primers for small children.) "Colloquial" or "dialectal" Arabic refers to the many national or regional varieties derived from Classical Arabic, spoken daily across North Africa and the Middle East, which constitute the everyday spoken language. These sometimes differ enough to be mutually incomprehensible. These dialects are not typically written, although a certain amount of literature (particularly plays and poetry) exists in many of them. They are often used to varying degrees in informal spoken media, such as soap operas and talk shows. Literary Arabic or classical Arabic is the official language of all Arab countries and is the only form of Arabic taught in schools at all stages.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArabicUntil you can recognize that they are different you will continue to be misguided.
sure I recognised that your statement above does not exist in the real world, I guess you also have lugha Arabia Tunisia, lugha Arabia Maghrabia, etc etc, LOL bro, there is no such thing, I guess you mean the public language not the language taught at schools, in this case I believe you are the misinformed one, being guided or not I will leave this to Allah to judge between the Muslims
But I'm sure this will go against certain cultural ideas that you have,
same wrong assumption again, come on bro, I have no specific culture, I?m a multi cultural sort of guy, I lived abroad most of my life and in different countries, where you got this assumption from?, do you know me well?
so you can choose to agree with me or not,
of course I have to disagree with you, that is what I said all along and provided supporting verse from the Quran regarding the word Alone, you supplied nothing other than you personal opinion
but read up more on your language and you will start to see the light.
LOL, I don?t read about my language, I studied my language since I was 5 years old and what I studied is the same Arabic as the Arabic Quran that is taught in all Arabic countries at all schools and at all stages
This a fallacy of many Arabs,
This is indeed a jealousy over the Arabs, LOL, bad luck mate
you are not the only one, that will definitely impede your religious understanding.
come on, stop making accusations and assumptions, you are the one who lacks Arabic hence most of the things you will try to say should not be taken seriously by a native Arabic speaker like me UNLESS IT HAS MERIT and so far you provided no merit, make sense to you?
I'm glad to be blessed with a group of Arab Arabic teachers who would plainly disagree with you. Some of which are beyond qualified in the ancient classical Arabic and the modern Arabic. I have had these converstions with some of them also, so don't think I am just a poor, ignorant and misguided non-Arabic speaker.
ok
You fluent Arab speakers here could be of a great aid to the Quran if you could recognize this truth. Layth suffers from this belief too which is based in some cultural misconceptions that have sprung out of Arab Nationalism and its interrelation with Islam.
sorry, what Layth has to do with it?
Recognizing the Classical Arabic itself has had different eras of development and change, which have affected the language enough so that old and ancient phrases seem awkward or unintelligible to the modern Arabic speaker is necessary to be able to really understand and promote the message of the Koran.
oh yeh, the same old used by date things that I only hear here. if this is what you think, then what is my problem sir?, it is not of my business really, you do what you do, and I do what I do and Layth does what he does and also the public choose what they choose, fair enough to you? But please don?t accuse me of being misguided and impeding my religion understanding
The eras or epochs have also been minimal but substantial enough so that Classical Arabic can, should and (is by certain educated individuals) classified into different eras Pre-Islamic or Quranic Classical Arabic, Islamic Classical Arabic and Modern Classical Arabic. The last change however has been the most drastic because it has been a systematic (although not absolute) reduction of the Classical Arabic rules, grammar and vocabulary which have been accepted as valid since the Pre-Islamic Classical Arabic period.
excuse me, the Quran is based on the common Arabic language, not an Arabic from a different planet
Modern Literary Arabic is close to, and pulls from, the ancient classical Arabic of the Quran but they are not the same, and Modern literary Arabic lacks much of ancient classical Arabic and at the same time uses those modern and post-quranic meanings that the language of the Quran would not and cannot discuss because it's topics are limited to the capacity of the language of the time of the Quran. So it will not talk of dabbaabaat (tanks) or taa'iraat (Airplants), sayyaraat (cars or vehicles) or qita&a ghiyaar (spare parts) or many of the topics which use ancient Classical Arabic words but which go beyond the Quran's circle of expressions.
I guess the above is irrelevant, but thanks for the insight, sure you know a lot about Arabic, I?m very impressed
Secondly, I looked up the word in Wehr's dictionar and dictionary that encompasses both modern Arabic and older school arabic and the word yateem can mean 'alone or solitary'. So I'm definitely taking the side of those who proclaimed that yateem can mean that because it is in the dictionary of al-lughatul-arabiyatul-fushaa. Because this word can mean that there is no reason to exlude it. That would be unjust.
bad luck, I don?t look up words from any dictionary because they are very clear to me as being a native Arabic speaker, possibly very few Arabic words that I looked up about 20 years ago, but surely not Yatim as in the context of the Quran it only meant orphan all along and in every single location a variation of the word used, alos the history confirm 100% that the prophet was orphaned by the age of 6
and surely HE WAS NEVER ALONE but always had family members and friends to support him till the day he died, your problem is, your argument has to be supported by either the history or the Quran, and you provided zero evidences other than your Wehr's dictionary which is irrelevant here, sure I agree that many Arabic words may mean many meanings but only if a strong argument support it not the already known fact that a word can mean two meanings, got my point?
If you disagreed with everything I have said here we might as well sum up our talks here. If that is the case, go ahead and make your rebuttal, but I'm sure I'll have nothing to say to you after that. Let's see.
Of course I have to disagree, and I explained to you why, simply and again, you provided no evidence to say the word Yatim in that verse meant alone
I provided a compelling evidence in the Quran that the word alone is something else and was used once in the whole Quran, also the very well known history records about Mohammad by the majority of the Muslims and non Muslims regardless they are arabs or not is Mohammad was an orphan by the age of 6
So where exactly I got it wrong sir?
Godbless,
AnwarCheers
Ahmed
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Peace
I don?t look up words from any dictionary because they are very clear to me as being a native Arabic speaker
Even english speaking people look up english words in the dictionary to recheck a meaning. I'm a native English speaker and look up words in the dictionary all the time.
Joe
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Peace
I don?t look up words from any dictionary because they are very clear to me as being a native Arabic speaker
Even english speaking people look up english words in the dictionary to recheck a meaning. I'm a native English speaker and look up words in the dictionary all the time.
Joe
Peace
sure, but how often you do it?, and if you do it a lot, I'm sure there are others who do it very rare, and as I steted above, I did it very rare many years ago then didn't need to do it any more because the Quran was fully read and all the hard words were identified and their meannings were searched for, theough arabic dictionaries and asking the people with knwledge, I didn't deny the action fully, but I guess if you face a tough word you only need to look it up once, not every time you read the Quran and that is what i did ages ago, there is no new arabic words in te Quran for me since years ago, every tough word was looked up
Ahmed
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Peace,
Such flagrant Arabism... because that's what we are experiencing here. If you took the reading (quran) away then the Arabists would truly account for nothing.
The other aspect that Arabists seem to not understand is that rather than an honour to their language the fact that this warning was revealed to this nation is a great black mark on them. They were chosen for their heights of hypocrisy and paganism. Specially selected to receive guidance because of the depths of their evil practises and customs.
The fact is that they remain among the most misguided souls on the earth; that their backwardness and 'jahiliya' persists to this very day with no signs of enlightenment on the horizon.
997 The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
So when the Arabists become excited by the fact that the reading is in their tongue let them also reflect on the reasons why that is so - and on the verse above so that they may be humbled to know that they, like their predecessors are being spoken to.
Peace.
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Oben
what on earth you are goin g on about?
another case of degarding the arabs? hey, that is what you can only do but you will always fail
nice try bro, but listen mate, what you said regarding the verse you posted is nothing but a clear cut mistake
The verse never mentioned the Quran mister smart, but Hey I know that this is your habit, to add further words "that does npot exist) to the english translation, to make up a point lol lol lol
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AhmedBahgat wrote
Where you got this info from, that the lugha Arabia Masria is not the same as lugha Arabia fusha?, this is a clear cut mistake because I never heard of such thing called lugha Arabia Masria, the following info is from wikipedia
You want proof that the so called "lughatul arabia al fusha" is not the same as the language of the Koran??
Boy are you asking for it... wink
I can state over 20 examples - impromptu- of how the meanings of certain words in our "Fusha" arabic have no basis in the the Reading whatsoever.
Example 1
Ask ANY Egyptian about the meaning of the word "walad" and he will tell you walad = male child.
Ask an Egyptian teacher of "Fusha" Arabic about the meaning of "walad" and he will tell you walad = male child. ( whereas "bint" = female child )
Ask SHEIKH AL-AZHAR about the meaning of the word "walad" and he wil tell you walad = male child. ( In fact all of the so-called "fiqh" of the Azhar sunnis dealing with inheritance laws is based on the understanding that "walad" = male child. This is why 99% of the time, lone female girls are deprived of their inheritance rights in Sunni fiqh.)
If you read the Koran thouroughly you will notice that "walad" can mean both male AND female. This alone is enough to condemn all of the Sunni inheritance fiqh to the trash can.
How can you explain this?
Example 2
The word "sana" in 'Fusha' Arabic means one year. ( 365 days ).
Ask ANY one of those Sunni "Ulamas" the following questionHow long did Noah live among his people???
They will tell you He lived around 1,000 years ( meaning 1000 x 365 days ), because the Koran says so!!
Well I have news for you The word "sana" in the Koran is related to "sunnah" ( same spelling for both words - hence SAME ROOT ). Meaning way, or law.
-So the "sunna" of the Earth is to revolve around the sun once every 365 days .
-The "sunna" of the Earth is to rotate around it's axis once every 24 hours ( minus a few minutes ).
-The "sunna" of God in dealing with past nations that corrupted the Earth is to wipe them out and establish new nations atop their ruins.
etc...So we see that "sunna" (or "sana" if you wish) can mean a cycle of the Earth, moon OR sun.
hence 900 sanas can mean 900 lunar months or even 900 days
Do you accept this possibility? - one that the so-called "fusha" language - doesn't recognize???there's more.. much more...enough to fill pages...
but I'm tired.
Peace...
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Hello Oben and Pazuzu
I have about 15 alleged gramatical errors in the arabic Quran
Let me put both of you "if you don't mind" to the test, here is an alleged grammatical error in the Quran
In verse 1215, we read
(15)
Translated in English by as follow
So they did take him away, and they all agreed to throw him down to the bottom of the well and We put into his heart (this Message) 'Of a surety thou shalt (one day) tell them the truth of this their affair while they know (thee) not'
The enemy of Islam suggest that the above verse has a severe gramatical error.
The Arabic word ?Lamma? ? ?appears in red above, requires two elements, an action & an explanation to the action called ?Gawab Lamma?, "The Answer of Lamma"
In 1215, the action ofLamma is clear ? ?, i.e. "did take him away", appears in the Arabic verse in blue
What should follow next MUST be Gawab Lamma, but because a Waw ? ? appears in green, came straight after the action of Lamma, it is considered a new sentence, therefore the Author of the Quran forgot Gawab Lamma
Can you please explain to me if the above is a mistake in the Fusha Arabic Language or not?
You can also seek the help of as many average Arabic speakers as you can, I bet all will have no idea
Cheers
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OH.. you are issuing a clear invitation to the dance.... twisted
Ok fine... just give me a few hours till I get home...
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AhmedBahgat wrote
Where you got this info from, that the lugha Arabia Masria is not the same as lugha Arabia fusha?, this is a clear cut mistake because I never heard of such thing called lugha Arabia Masria, the following info is from wikipedia
You want proof that the so called "lughatul arabia al fusha" is not the same as the language of the Koran??
Of course, but not made up please
Boy are you asking for it... wink
You sound very confident to me, wink
I can state over 20 examples - impromptu- of how the meanings of certain words in our "Fusha" arabic have no basis in the the Reading whatsoever.
Excuse me bro, you started to confuse me here, firstly, you just told the following ? You want proof that the so called "lughatul arabia al fusha" is not the same as the language of the Koran???
Then you said this ?I can state over 20 examples - impromptu- of how the meanings of certain words in our "Fusha" arabic have no basis in the the Reading whatsoever.?
Now I may ask, what is the reading?, if you mean the Quran ?you know I?m not that dumb? then why you used two different names to refer to it, one that is the real name of it ?The Koran? and confirmed by the Quran, and the other is a very vague name that you made up and never confirmed by the Quran
Is it the reading or is it The Quran?
If it is the reading, why you referred to it as The Quran first?
And if it is The Quran, then why you called it a vague name the reading second?
Are you confident what the name of that book should be?
Example 1
Ask ANY Egyptian about the meaning of the word "walad" and he will tell you walad = male child.
Why I ask any Egyptian?, I will definitely ask myself, I?m a bloody Egyptian
Ahmed asked himself then responded as follow,
Ahmed said
Walad = Male child, or a Female child, depends on the context of the sentence
Ask an Egyptian teacher of "Fusha" Arabic about the meaning of "walad" and he will tell you walad = male child. ( whereas "bint" = female child )
Bad luck, I?m not in Egypt now, but I promise you in my next trip to Egypt I will ask an Egyptian Arabic teacher about your question, and I will get back to you, possibly next June
Ask SHEIKH AL-AZHAR about the meaning of the word "walad" and he wil tell you walad = male child.
Not sure if they will allow me to ask him face to face, however, note is taken and added to the previous note as a task to be done in my next trip to Egypt
( In fact all of the so-called "fiqh" of the Azhar sunnis dealing with inheritance laws is based on the understanding that "walad" = male child. This is why 99% of the time, lone female girls are deprived of their inheritance rights in Sunni fiqh.)
firstly why you chose Egyptian Arabic teacher, can I ask a Lebanese one? Or Saudi one?, does it have to be Egyptian?
If you read the Koran thouroughly you will notice that "walad" can mean both male AND female. This alone is enough to condemn all of the Sunni inheritance fiqh to the trash can.
Here we go again, back to naming it Koran and not reading, can I ask why you do that?
Also it seems you have totally missed the plot, who is talking about sunni here, excuse me?
What on earth the sunni has to do with our discussion?
How can you explain this?
I guess it was explained as you totally missed the plot and me, as an Egyptian know the meaning of Walad better than those so called sunni which till now I can?t work out their relevance to the subject in hand
Let?s cut it short
Was Mohammad an orphan ?Yatim? or
Was Mohammad alone ?Yatim??
Very simple bro, I need you to tackle this subject not bloody talk to me about the sunni, thanks
Example 2
The word "sana" in 'Fusha' Arabic means one year. ( 365 days ).
Ask ANY one of those Sunni "Ulamas" the following questionNow, in your second example you are asking me to ask a fourth entity that you never asked me to ask them in your first example, remember you asked me to ask the followings in your first failed example
- An Egyptian
- An Egyptian Arabic Teacher
- Sheikh Al Azhar
Now I need to ask any of those sunni Ulamas, is Pakistani Ulamas will fit here?
How long did Noah live among his people???
I don?t need to ask them, the answer is in the Quran, it is 1000 Sana ? 50 Sana
They will tell you He lived around 1,000 years ( meaning 1000 x 365 days ), because the Koran says so!!
Really, they told you as such?, I don?t know as I didn?t need to ask an Ullmah that simple question
well the quran never said it is a luner or sun year, therefore it can be both, but how cares, the lesson that he lived long enough to warn a very dumb humans
Well I have news for you The word "sana" in the Koran is related to "sunnah" ( same spelling for both words - hence SAME ROOT ). Meaning way, or law.
Really?, so he stayed 950 way of laws with his people?, makes no sense to me
-So the "sunna" of the Earth is to revolve around the sun once every 365 days .
that is one type of sana, there is also another type called Lunar year, and there is 11 days difference between the two
-The "sunna" of the Earth is to rotate around it's axis once every 24 hours ( minus a few minutes ).
LOL, I though that is called ?Yawm? not ?suna? unless you mean ?sunna? which sound like way of laws, but what that has to do with the earth rotation?
-The "sunna" of God in dealing with past nations that corrupted the Earth is to wipe them out and establish new nations atop their ruins.
etc...I guess you are mixed up between two different Arabic words that happen to have the same letters, LOL
So we see that "sunna" (or "sana" if you wish) can mean a cycle of the Earth, moon OR sun.
What?
hence 900 sanas can mean 900 lunar months or even 900 days
sorry, what 900 has to do with it? I thought it is 950
Do you accept this possibility? ?
Absolutely not because you provided no evidence whatsoever, and what you provided made no sense whatsoever as well
one that the so-called "fusha" language - doesn't recognize???
Well, it seems your fusha is different to the ones I learned at school, but I can see easily where you got things wrong, it is two different words that have the same letters, LOL
there's more.. much more...enough to fill pages...
Oh yeh, bring it on please
but I'm tired.
I?m not, so I advice you to have a rest and come back with more
Peace...
Cheers
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OH.. you are issuing a clear invitation to the dance.... twisted
Ok fine... just give me a few hours till I get home...
Let's dance mate, I like your style, I hope non of us gets offended
Peace twisted
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Now I may ask, what is the reading?, if you mean the Quran ?you know I?m not that dumb? then why you used two different names to refer to it, one that is the real name of it ?The Koran? and confirmed by the Quran, and the other is a very vague name that you made up and never confirmed by the Quran
A vague name??? ??
WE ARE POSTING IN ENGLISH AREN'T WE???
Sorry..I don't understand your critisism of me using the word "Koran" (Or Quran)or "Reading".. To me, Koran=Reading... You know it's like sometimes we use the word "Allah" , and sometimes we use the word "God", when in context they mean the same.
"Quran" comes from "Qara'a" ( to read )..hence "Reading".. Get it??
I see no point in differentiating the two.
Actually, if we want to observe rules of precision when WE POST IN ENGLISH, we shouldn't use the words "Allah", "Quran" or even "Islam".. We should substitute them with "God", "Reading", and "Submission"- And stick to those.
Pardon my slip of the tongue... It was harmless really...
Anyway, as I was saying.. "Koran"....oops."Quran"= "Reading".
Also it seems you have totally missed the plot, who is talking about sunni here, excuse me?
What on earth the sunni has to do with our discussion?
It has everything to do with it. You see, the Sunni scholars believe that they are qualified to interpret the Reading because they are well versed in the Arabic Fusha.. My point was to prove that even this Arabic Fusha that our teachers and scholars are learned in, is very
different from the language of the Reading..firstly why you chose Egyptian Arabic teacher, can I ask a Lebanese one? Or Saudi one?, does it have to be Egyptian?
Because it's generally accepted in Egypt that whenever the word "walad" is used , it always means "male child". This may be the case in other Arab countries as well ; but incidently, I mentioned Egypt because many of my work associates happen to be Egyptians.
I don?t need to ask them, the answer is in the Quran, it is 1000 Sana ? 50 Sana
My point was clear I was proving that the word "sana" in the "Fusha" language is not the same as "sana" in the Reading.
I only stated the number 1000 as an example.. 900, 950, or 1000, it makes no difference really.
I guess you are mixed up between two different Arabic words that happen to have the same letters, LOL
Nope. I'm not mixed up. I clearly said that both words have the same root SIN,NOON,TA'.
The following statement you made is what caused me to "snap", and started this whole conversation to begin with.
." Arabs consider literary Arabic as the standard language and tend to view everything else as mere dialects. Literary Arabic, al-luatu-l-arabiyyatu-l-fu (Literally "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? ى refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more articulate language of the Qur'an.
The whole point of my post was to show you that the "Fusha" language of today, ( The most eloquent Arabic language ) is as far from the language of the Reading as the sky is to the Earth. And just because one has a good grasp of this "Fusha", that doesn't mean that one is qualified to explain the meaning of words or phrases in the Reading.
There is a post I made in this same section entitled "Especially for member progod". I suggest you take a look at it. ( it's on page 3 of this same section ). The post is about the differences between Hadith language ( which is in Fusha) and the language of the Reading
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Pzuzu
I will try to find that look
Just a quick question
the root method means nothing to me bro and I prove it to you
S L M is the root of Silm= Peace, the arabic word look like this ""
S L M is the root of Sillem = Ladder, the arabic word look like this ""
now both two words "Peace" and "Ladder" are identical and = "", they also have the same root and both words were used in the Quran to express both meanings
now please explain to me why the words don't have the same meaning while they have the same root and they also have the same identical letters?
cheers
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Ahamad,
You misread my post. I had al-lughatul-Arabiatul-mu'aasirah, not masriya. You should know that mu'aasirah means 'modern.' But that is an honest mistake, know re-read my post.
You are right that the root method does not always work. Because Arabic mainly uses roots and builds off of one single concept with different forms, but it doesn't always do that, and as you pointed out a root can carry serveral different meanings. Just like the word wuqoo' can mean 'happening, fallling or location.'
Like I said Modern Standard Arabic pulls from Old Classical Arabic but doesn't follow all of the same rules. For instance it is not allowable in Modern Standard Arabic to say 'maa a'rif' for I don't know, but it is allowable in the colloquials and in Old Classical Arabic. It is not allowed to say 'laa ariftu' in Modern Standard Arabic (I don't know about colloquials) but it is allowed in Old Classical Arabic.
Phrases like 'laisa bimugrimin or maa huwa bimujrimin' are not allowed in Modern Arabics but they are allow in Old Classical Arabic. As well as a number of other incidences.
I don't have a problem with Arabs. Don't get me wrong so don't think that I am trying to attack Arabs. I am talking about Arabism and the wrong ideas it has spread about the language that you speak.
Roots of words (though not absolutely important) were much more important in Old Arabic. And I can't speak on the root of sanat because it could have two different root because of its two different plurals 'sineen' and 'sanawaat.'
But with all that said, just take into account that there is a difference between Quranic era Arabic and Modern Arabic. And just because you are an Arabic speaker doesn't mean that you know all of the meanings of all of the words in the Arabic language. If you are a good speaker or Modern Standard Arabic it just means that you know most of the COMMON meanings of the Arabic words that you use. There are alot of meanings of words and words for that matter that were used 100-1000 years ago that people aren't using anymore but that are still in the dictionaries. That is why it is important to get these meanings out of the dictionaries and to consider phrases that may not be popular in 19-20th century Modern Standard Arabic . . .because it is very likely that people in the times before you who, and during the era where Quranic style Arabic was spoken used words differently than Arabs do now.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Ahamad,
You misread my post. I had al-lughatul-Arabiatul-mu'aasirah, not masriya. You should know that mu'aasirah means 'modern.' But that is an honest mistake, know re-read my post.
Hello mate
Sure, I always find it confusing to write Arabic words using English letters, but I know what you mean now, but we didn?t learn that one in schoold, what we learn is the Classic Fusha one
You are right that the root method does not always work. Because Arabic mainly uses roots and builds off of one single concept with different forms, but it doesn't always do that, and as you pointed out a root can carry serveral different meanings. Just like the word wuqoo' can mean 'happening, fallling or location.'
exactly right bro, but it is still ok for the non Arabic speakers to get some sort of idea about the language, but they can?t use it to confirm a meaning of any word, only the context will confirm the meaning
Like I said Modern Standard Arabic pulls from Old Classical Arabic but doesn't follow all of the same rules. For instance it is not allowable in Modern Standard Arabic to say 'maa a'rif' for I don't know, but it is allowable in the colloquials and in Old Classical Arabic. It is not allowed to say 'laa ariftu' in Modern Standard Arabic (I don't know about colloquials) but it is allowed in Old Classical Arabic.
not sure about the above bro, Ma A?rif is actually common in Arabic, as well Laa ariftu, it does not sound foreign to me rather very common and also it is grammatically correct
Phrases like 'laisa bimugrimin or maa huwa bimujrimin' are not allowed in Modern Arabics but they are allow in Old Classical Arabic. As well as a number of other incidences.
you are talking about grammars rules here, not meanings, and what I mean all along is the meaning of the words is the same between all Arabic countries according to the fusha Arabic, but I got your point
what you are talking about is called Balagha, and Balagha is used to make up short sentences with the plenty of information, and can overwrite the grammar rules, please ask any strong Arabic speaker ?you know? about what I just told you
I don't have a problem with Arabs. Don't get me wrong so don't think that I am trying to attack Arabs. I am talking about Arabism and the wrong ideas it has spread about the language that you speak.
I never though of you as such, but I sensed that this is the theme on this web site, sorry for any thing I said that caused a wrong understanding
Roots of words (though not absolutely important) were much more important in Old Arabic. And I can't speak on the root of sanat because it could have two different root because of its two different plurals 'sineen' and 'sanawaat.'
it actually can have two roots ?S N A? or ?S N?, I hope I?m right
But with all that said, just take into account that there is a difference between Quranic era Arabic and Modern Arabic.
of course Ii know that, but the Quran is the standard not what the human invented should be the standard any fallacy in the language will come from us not from Allah for sure
And just because you are an Arabic speaker doesn't mean that you know all of the meanings of all of the words in the Arabic language.
of course, but I can find the proper meaning far easier than the non Arabic speakers, as well can confirm the info I get from others, I hardly open any dictionary to find a meaning of an Arabic word
If you are a good speaker or Modern Standard Arabic it just means that you know most of the COMMON meanings of the Arabic words that you use.
sure, but I also know the grammar rules very well, I just bought three grammar books in Arabic from Egypt to revive my grammar experience and will start going through them from today, one of the books is Quran based
There are alot of meanings of words and words for that matter that were used 100-1000 years ago that people aren't using anymore but that are still in the dictionaries.
yes but Allah is the author of the Quran and He is aware what the people 1400 years use of Arabic words as well He also know all the Arabic vocabularies that the arabs will use in 2006, therefore I don?t think Allah will confuse us rather He selected the most suited and common Arabic words to talk to humanity in all generations, I guess that is easy for Him especially He is the One who created all languages
That is why it is important to get these meanings out of the dictionaries and to consider phrases that may not be popular in 19-20th century Modern Standard Arabic . . .because it is very likely that people in the times before you who, and during the era where Quranic style Arabic was spoken used words differently than Arabs do now.
Godbless,
AnwarOnly with tough and uncommon Arabic words, not the very common ones that were used 1400 years ago and now, like Yatim and many other common words
Peace be with you
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Godbless,
You tried to fight me in the above post. But I can see that you see my point pretty clearly.consider what I say towards the end of my post about Modern Arabic and Old Classical Arabic. Yes God knows what languages people will use at all times but if it were that simple he would have made it in a language that all humans no matter what our separate languages would understand without having to analyze, study, search or critique meanings. That would be easy for him too, wouldn't it?
Godbless,
AnwarI will ask about the balagha matter.
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Godbless,
You tried to fight me in the above post.
Salam bro
bro no fight intended, I only fight the enemy and you are not one of my enemies, in fact I consider you a brother in faith, I'm just a person with very strong beliefs and all logical
But I can see that you see my point pretty clearly.consider what I say towards the end of my post about Modern Arabic and Old Classical Arabic. Yes God knows what languages people will use at all times but if it were that simple he would have made it in a language that all humans no matter what our separate languages would understand without having to analyze, study, search or critique meanings. That would be easy for him too, wouldn't it?
Godbless,
AnwarI will ask about the balagha matter.
ok what I meant that for any langugae native speakers, most common words will be known, common and popular, and a few will not be known, therefore to translate the clearly founded words into totally differnt meanings that will contradict the Quran and the common sense can not be accpeted, very simple equation bro
if I'm not a native arabic speaker I would have been slamming my head in walls right now trying to figure every word in the Quran, but because I'm a native arabic speaker, I don;t need to do that with every word especially the common, well known, well established, clear words
Salam mate
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But with that said, again the Arabic you speak is not the Arabic of 1000 years ago. And what you consider a common meaning is a common meaning in the era, not a common mean 100 years ago.
One of my main points is that as with all languages, common uses and commonly used meanings come and go. I'm sure that you can even admit that Arabic colloquials and their meanings have impacts on the ways that modern educated Arabs use their words.
So just like in English I can read an old text and think I understand it (generally) if I don't understand that fact that some of those words have more than one meaning and the common meaning now was not the common meaning then then I will not be able to understand the word fully.
Yateem has always had the meaning of orphan but it has also always had the meaning of lonely. Just because no-one uses it in the sense of lonely anymore (or it is not common) doens't mean that that meaning wasn't used commonly back 1000 years ago.
There are plenty of obscure vocabulary in the Quran that is not used commonly today in Modern Arabic but they were used commonly during the age of the Quran.
Look in a dictionary and look at all of those not so understood or obscure meanings and understand that the language is bigger than the 20 and 21st century. That is the Arabic that you are experiencing. You are not experiencing the Arabic of 1000 years ago.
When I proposed the grammar rules to you like 'laa ariftu' and 'maa a'rif' you said they they are commonly used. You said that they are grammatically correct just to answer me and because they don't sound foreign, but as I said to you before, alot of old fushaa survives in the colloquials(and an Arabic colloquial which is acutally an Arabic creole is your native language) where it was lost in modern fushaa and vice-versa. The fact is that maa a'rif and laa ariftu are not grammatically correct according to modern fushaa. Ask any teacher or try this, write it down. Write a composition of some sort using the negative in this form and give it to an Arabic high school or college teacher and see if they say that you are speaking colloquial or fus-haa (of course they will be evaluating you based on modern fus-haa.) Equally, phrase a sentence like 'The boys went to the park' using the verb first. But instead of saying 'dhahaba al-awlaad ilaa al-muntazah' say 'dhahaboo al-awlaadu ilaa al-muntazah' and see whether they tell you that that is wrong, colloquial or fus-haa.
I'm kind of repeating myself here but I think you understood all this the first time i said it which is why you responded with
yes but Allah is the author of the Quran and He is aware what the people 1400 years use of Arabic words as well He also know all the Arabic vocabularies that the arabs will use in 2006, therefore I don?t think Allah will confuse us rather He selected the most suited and common Arabic words to talk to humanity in all generations, I guess that is easy for Him especially He is the One who created all languages
It seems like what you're saying here is that despite the simple and obvious differences that I pointed out you want to believe that if God didn't keep Arabic the same or put the Koran in a form of Arabic that would defy the changes that humans have been making to the spoken, native Arabic language and its meanings for over 1400 years then its God's fault for wanting to cause confusion.
Notice that I said "spoken, native Arabic language." Because the Arabic of the Quran which was at one time a spoken native language is no-one's native langauge any more and it is learned in school and preserved through books called dictionaries, lexicons and grammatical lexicons.
It is not God that has cause this point of confusion for you but your teachers and mentors who have given you the wrong concept about what exactly is the Arabic language.
ok what I meant that for any langugae native speakers, most common words will be known, common and popular, and a few will not be known, therefore to translate the clearly founded words into totally differnt meanings that will contradict the Quran and the common sense can not be accpeted, very simple equation bro
But what you seem to refuse to understand is that even though it may seem like it, the Quran is not written in your language. There is not such thing as 'one Arabic langauge.' Your native language is an aamiyah or a lah-jah, the Quran is definitely not written in that language. Secondly you were train from a very early age in a langauge that is highly similar to and that pulls from the Quranic style Arabic (which is only preserved really in old scripts, very high level language compositions and the Classical Arabic lexicons and dictionaries.).
To understand classical Arabic you have to go beyond what you were trained in and understand that Classica Arabic even though it uses the same words and shares the same grammatical patterns as Modern Arabic has meanings to those words which are not commonly used or understood by even in a lot of cases very well-educated individuals.
I don't know if you have ever heard creole English, like the English from Jamaica or Creole portugues or spanish. But your natiive language is like these creoles. They are based off of English, or Portugues or Spanish (and in your case old Classical Arabic) but they have grammar and vocabulary from other langauges, usually West African languages in the case of the Spanish and Portugues creoles and in the Levant (Aramaic, some French and other now extinct local non-Arabic languages) and in north Africa, Berber, French, Spanish etc.
People in Jamaica call their creole English, People in Spanish speaking countries call their creole Spanish and peole in Portuguese speaking countries call their creoles Portuguese. So they automatically have a mistaken idea about the languages that they speak.
Then if they go to school they will learn modern English, Spanish or Portuguese.
In school they will most likely read some old text from about 500 to 600 years ago in what was conisdered back then Spanish, English or Portuguese. They will understand most of it but they will not understand alot, and they won't get the full understanding of everything that it can be saying unless they look up the meanings of just about all of the words and consider even the most obscure or weirdest meanings that even they are not familiar with.
If they have the same concept that alot of the Arab world has, that their language hasn't changed a bit since those times then they are screwed. Because alot of the books and old language will go right over their heads.
You speak a creole. You were trained in modern Arabic, and you are attempting to analyze and understand an old Classical Arabic text. Do not be mistaken and think that you speak exactly the same languag that it speaks. Do not be mistaken and think that your language is to hard to be learned by foreigners. I have had these conversations and arguments since I started studying Arabic in college and I am just as much familiar with the misconceptions that Arabs have about the languages that they speak just as much as the misconceptions that non-Arabs have about the Arabic languages. (Not the plural use of languages)
To get back to the original theme, the use of yateem is in the dictionaries and it does not make the Quran contradict itself, it makes the stories about Muhammad that are based on the Hadeeths and rumors contradict the Quran. Which means that you have to make a choice, the Quran or the rumors. Will you continue to try to force the Quran on the side of the rumors when it never said that Muhammad was an orphan? Or will you side with what the Quran can be saying over what the rumors say?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Firstly anwar
beofre you step on your high horse, YOU MUST PROVIDE A COMPELLING PROVE THAT YATIM DID NOT MEAN ORPHAN 1400 YEARS AGO
IF NO EVIDENCE PROVIDED THEN IT HAS TO BE TAKEN AS WHAT IT MEANS LITERALY
YOU CAN PROVIDE A DICTIONARY AS AN EVIDENCE BUT THE DICTIONARY MUST BE ONE THAT WAS PRINTED 1400 YEARS AGO
THEREFOR YOU CAN NOT PROVE IT
NOW IT IS YOUR CHOCE
TO FOLLOW THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN OR TO FOLLOW CONJECTURE
YOUR CALL
Salam