Was The Messenger Of The Qur'aan An Orphan?
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Hello Oben and Pazuzu
I have about 15 alleged gramatical errors in the arabic Quran
Let me put both of you "if you don't mind" to the test, here is an alleged grammatical error in the Quran
In verse 1215, we read
(15)
Translated in English by as follow
So they did take him away, and they all agreed to throw him down to the bottom of the well and We put into his heart (this Message) 'Of a surety thou shalt (one day) tell them the truth of this their affair while they know (thee) not'
The enemy of Islam suggest that the above verse has a severe gramatical error.
The Arabic word ?Lamma? ? ?appears in red above, requires two elements, an action & an explanation to the action called ?Gawab Lamma?, "The Answer of Lamma"
In 1215, the action ofLamma is clear ? ?, i.e. "did take him away", appears in the Arabic verse in blue
What should follow next MUST be Gawab Lamma, but because a Waw ? ? appears in green, came straight after the action of Lamma, it is considered a new sentence, therefore the Author of the Quran forgot Gawab Lamma
Can you please explain to me if the above is a mistake in the Fusha Arabic Language or not?
You can also seek the help of as many average Arabic speakers as you can, I bet all will have no idea
Cheers
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OH.. you are issuing a clear invitation to the dance.... twisted
Ok fine... just give me a few hours till I get home...
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AhmedBahgat wrote
Where you got this info from, that the lugha Arabia Masria is not the same as lugha Arabia fusha?, this is a clear cut mistake because I never heard of such thing called lugha Arabia Masria, the following info is from wikipedia
You want proof that the so called "lughatul arabia al fusha" is not the same as the language of the Koran??
Of course, but not made up please
Boy are you asking for it... wink
You sound very confident to me, wink
I can state over 20 examples - impromptu- of how the meanings of certain words in our "Fusha" arabic have no basis in the the Reading whatsoever.
Excuse me bro, you started to confuse me here, firstly, you just told the following ? You want proof that the so called "lughatul arabia al fusha" is not the same as the language of the Koran???
Then you said this ?I can state over 20 examples - impromptu- of how the meanings of certain words in our "Fusha" arabic have no basis in the the Reading whatsoever.?
Now I may ask, what is the reading?, if you mean the Quran ?you know I?m not that dumb? then why you used two different names to refer to it, one that is the real name of it ?The Koran? and confirmed by the Quran, and the other is a very vague name that you made up and never confirmed by the Quran
Is it the reading or is it The Quran?
If it is the reading, why you referred to it as The Quran first?
And if it is The Quran, then why you called it a vague name the reading second?
Are you confident what the name of that book should be?
Example 1
Ask ANY Egyptian about the meaning of the word "walad" and he will tell you walad = male child.
Why I ask any Egyptian?, I will definitely ask myself, I?m a bloody Egyptian
Ahmed asked himself then responded as follow,
Ahmed said
Walad = Male child, or a Female child, depends on the context of the sentence
Ask an Egyptian teacher of "Fusha" Arabic about the meaning of "walad" and he will tell you walad = male child. ( whereas "bint" = female child )
Bad luck, I?m not in Egypt now, but I promise you in my next trip to Egypt I will ask an Egyptian Arabic teacher about your question, and I will get back to you, possibly next June
Ask SHEIKH AL-AZHAR about the meaning of the word "walad" and he wil tell you walad = male child.
Not sure if they will allow me to ask him face to face, however, note is taken and added to the previous note as a task to be done in my next trip to Egypt
( In fact all of the so-called "fiqh" of the Azhar sunnis dealing with inheritance laws is based on the understanding that "walad" = male child. This is why 99% of the time, lone female girls are deprived of their inheritance rights in Sunni fiqh.)
firstly why you chose Egyptian Arabic teacher, can I ask a Lebanese one? Or Saudi one?, does it have to be Egyptian?
If you read the Koran thouroughly you will notice that "walad" can mean both male AND female. This alone is enough to condemn all of the Sunni inheritance fiqh to the trash can.
Here we go again, back to naming it Koran and not reading, can I ask why you do that?
Also it seems you have totally missed the plot, who is talking about sunni here, excuse me?
What on earth the sunni has to do with our discussion?
How can you explain this?
I guess it was explained as you totally missed the plot and me, as an Egyptian know the meaning of Walad better than those so called sunni which till now I can?t work out their relevance to the subject in hand
Let?s cut it short
Was Mohammad an orphan ?Yatim? or
Was Mohammad alone ?Yatim??
Very simple bro, I need you to tackle this subject not bloody talk to me about the sunni, thanks
Example 2
The word "sana" in 'Fusha' Arabic means one year. ( 365 days ).
Ask ANY one of those Sunni "Ulamas" the following questionNow, in your second example you are asking me to ask a fourth entity that you never asked me to ask them in your first example, remember you asked me to ask the followings in your first failed example
- An Egyptian
- An Egyptian Arabic Teacher
- Sheikh Al Azhar
Now I need to ask any of those sunni Ulamas, is Pakistani Ulamas will fit here?
How long did Noah live among his people???
I don?t need to ask them, the answer is in the Quran, it is 1000 Sana ? 50 Sana
They will tell you He lived around 1,000 years ( meaning 1000 x 365 days ), because the Koran says so!!
Really, they told you as such?, I don?t know as I didn?t need to ask an Ullmah that simple question
well the quran never said it is a luner or sun year, therefore it can be both, but how cares, the lesson that he lived long enough to warn a very dumb humans
Well I have news for you The word "sana" in the Koran is related to "sunnah" ( same spelling for both words - hence SAME ROOT ). Meaning way, or law.
Really?, so he stayed 950 way of laws with his people?, makes no sense to me
-So the "sunna" of the Earth is to revolve around the sun once every 365 days .
that is one type of sana, there is also another type called Lunar year, and there is 11 days difference between the two
-The "sunna" of the Earth is to rotate around it's axis once every 24 hours ( minus a few minutes ).
LOL, I though that is called ?Yawm? not ?suna? unless you mean ?sunna? which sound like way of laws, but what that has to do with the earth rotation?
-The "sunna" of God in dealing with past nations that corrupted the Earth is to wipe them out and establish new nations atop their ruins.
etc...I guess you are mixed up between two different Arabic words that happen to have the same letters, LOL
So we see that "sunna" (or "sana" if you wish) can mean a cycle of the Earth, moon OR sun.
What?
hence 900 sanas can mean 900 lunar months or even 900 days
sorry, what 900 has to do with it? I thought it is 950
Do you accept this possibility? ?
Absolutely not because you provided no evidence whatsoever, and what you provided made no sense whatsoever as well
one that the so-called "fusha" language - doesn't recognize???
Well, it seems your fusha is different to the ones I learned at school, but I can see easily where you got things wrong, it is two different words that have the same letters, LOL
there's more.. much more...enough to fill pages...
Oh yeh, bring it on please
but I'm tired.
I?m not, so I advice you to have a rest and come back with more
Peace...
Cheers
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OH.. you are issuing a clear invitation to the dance.... twisted
Ok fine... just give me a few hours till I get home...
Let's dance mate, I like your style, I hope non of us gets offended
Peace twisted
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Now I may ask, what is the reading?, if you mean the Quran ?you know I?m not that dumb? then why you used two different names to refer to it, one that is the real name of it ?The Koran? and confirmed by the Quran, and the other is a very vague name that you made up and never confirmed by the Quran
A vague name??? ??
WE ARE POSTING IN ENGLISH AREN'T WE???
Sorry..I don't understand your critisism of me using the word "Koran" (Or Quran)or "Reading".. To me, Koran=Reading... You know it's like sometimes we use the word "Allah" , and sometimes we use the word "God", when in context they mean the same.
"Quran" comes from "Qara'a" ( to read )..hence "Reading".. Get it??
I see no point in differentiating the two.
Actually, if we want to observe rules of precision when WE POST IN ENGLISH, we shouldn't use the words "Allah", "Quran" or even "Islam".. We should substitute them with "God", "Reading", and "Submission"- And stick to those.
Pardon my slip of the tongue... It was harmless really...
Anyway, as I was saying.. "Koran"....oops."Quran"= "Reading".
Also it seems you have totally missed the plot, who is talking about sunni here, excuse me?
What on earth the sunni has to do with our discussion?
It has everything to do with it. You see, the Sunni scholars believe that they are qualified to interpret the Reading because they are well versed in the Arabic Fusha.. My point was to prove that even this Arabic Fusha that our teachers and scholars are learned in, is very
different from the language of the Reading..firstly why you chose Egyptian Arabic teacher, can I ask a Lebanese one? Or Saudi one?, does it have to be Egyptian?
Because it's generally accepted in Egypt that whenever the word "walad" is used , it always means "male child". This may be the case in other Arab countries as well ; but incidently, I mentioned Egypt because many of my work associates happen to be Egyptians.
I don?t need to ask them, the answer is in the Quran, it is 1000 Sana ? 50 Sana
My point was clear I was proving that the word "sana" in the "Fusha" language is not the same as "sana" in the Reading.
I only stated the number 1000 as an example.. 900, 950, or 1000, it makes no difference really.
I guess you are mixed up between two different Arabic words that happen to have the same letters, LOL
Nope. I'm not mixed up. I clearly said that both words have the same root SIN,NOON,TA'.
The following statement you made is what caused me to "snap", and started this whole conversation to begin with.
." Arabs consider literary Arabic as the standard language and tend to view everything else as mere dialects. Literary Arabic, al-luatu-l-arabiyyatu-l-fu (Literally "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? ى refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more articulate language of the Qur'an.
The whole point of my post was to show you that the "Fusha" language of today, ( The most eloquent Arabic language ) is as far from the language of the Reading as the sky is to the Earth. And just because one has a good grasp of this "Fusha", that doesn't mean that one is qualified to explain the meaning of words or phrases in the Reading.
There is a post I made in this same section entitled "Especially for member progod". I suggest you take a look at it. ( it's on page 3 of this same section ). The post is about the differences between Hadith language ( which is in Fusha) and the language of the Reading
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Pzuzu
I will try to find that look
Just a quick question
the root method means nothing to me bro and I prove it to you
S L M is the root of Silm= Peace, the arabic word look like this ""
S L M is the root of Sillem = Ladder, the arabic word look like this ""
now both two words "Peace" and "Ladder" are identical and = "", they also have the same root and both words were used in the Quran to express both meanings
now please explain to me why the words don't have the same meaning while they have the same root and they also have the same identical letters?
cheers
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Ahamad,
You misread my post. I had al-lughatul-Arabiatul-mu'aasirah, not masriya. You should know that mu'aasirah means 'modern.' But that is an honest mistake, know re-read my post.
You are right that the root method does not always work. Because Arabic mainly uses roots and builds off of one single concept with different forms, but it doesn't always do that, and as you pointed out a root can carry serveral different meanings. Just like the word wuqoo' can mean 'happening, fallling or location.'
Like I said Modern Standard Arabic pulls from Old Classical Arabic but doesn't follow all of the same rules. For instance it is not allowable in Modern Standard Arabic to say 'maa a'rif' for I don't know, but it is allowable in the colloquials and in Old Classical Arabic. It is not allowed to say 'laa ariftu' in Modern Standard Arabic (I don't know about colloquials) but it is allowed in Old Classical Arabic.
Phrases like 'laisa bimugrimin or maa huwa bimujrimin' are not allowed in Modern Arabics but they are allow in Old Classical Arabic. As well as a number of other incidences.
I don't have a problem with Arabs. Don't get me wrong so don't think that I am trying to attack Arabs. I am talking about Arabism and the wrong ideas it has spread about the language that you speak.
Roots of words (though not absolutely important) were much more important in Old Arabic. And I can't speak on the root of sanat because it could have two different root because of its two different plurals 'sineen' and 'sanawaat.'
But with all that said, just take into account that there is a difference between Quranic era Arabic and Modern Arabic. And just because you are an Arabic speaker doesn't mean that you know all of the meanings of all of the words in the Arabic language. If you are a good speaker or Modern Standard Arabic it just means that you know most of the COMMON meanings of the Arabic words that you use. There are alot of meanings of words and words for that matter that were used 100-1000 years ago that people aren't using anymore but that are still in the dictionaries. That is why it is important to get these meanings out of the dictionaries and to consider phrases that may not be popular in 19-20th century Modern Standard Arabic . . .because it is very likely that people in the times before you who, and during the era where Quranic style Arabic was spoken used words differently than Arabs do now.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Ahamad,
You misread my post. I had al-lughatul-Arabiatul-mu'aasirah, not masriya. You should know that mu'aasirah means 'modern.' But that is an honest mistake, know re-read my post.
Hello mate
Sure, I always find it confusing to write Arabic words using English letters, but I know what you mean now, but we didn?t learn that one in schoold, what we learn is the Classic Fusha one
You are right that the root method does not always work. Because Arabic mainly uses roots and builds off of one single concept with different forms, but it doesn't always do that, and as you pointed out a root can carry serveral different meanings. Just like the word wuqoo' can mean 'happening, fallling or location.'
exactly right bro, but it is still ok for the non Arabic speakers to get some sort of idea about the language, but they can?t use it to confirm a meaning of any word, only the context will confirm the meaning
Like I said Modern Standard Arabic pulls from Old Classical Arabic but doesn't follow all of the same rules. For instance it is not allowable in Modern Standard Arabic to say 'maa a'rif' for I don't know, but it is allowable in the colloquials and in Old Classical Arabic. It is not allowed to say 'laa ariftu' in Modern Standard Arabic (I don't know about colloquials) but it is allowed in Old Classical Arabic.
not sure about the above bro, Ma A?rif is actually common in Arabic, as well Laa ariftu, it does not sound foreign to me rather very common and also it is grammatically correct
Phrases like 'laisa bimugrimin or maa huwa bimujrimin' are not allowed in Modern Arabics but they are allow in Old Classical Arabic. As well as a number of other incidences.
you are talking about grammars rules here, not meanings, and what I mean all along is the meaning of the words is the same between all Arabic countries according to the fusha Arabic, but I got your point
what you are talking about is called Balagha, and Balagha is used to make up short sentences with the plenty of information, and can overwrite the grammar rules, please ask any strong Arabic speaker ?you know? about what I just told you
I don't have a problem with Arabs. Don't get me wrong so don't think that I am trying to attack Arabs. I am talking about Arabism and the wrong ideas it has spread about the language that you speak.
I never though of you as such, but I sensed that this is the theme on this web site, sorry for any thing I said that caused a wrong understanding
Roots of words (though not absolutely important) were much more important in Old Arabic. And I can't speak on the root of sanat because it could have two different root because of its two different plurals 'sineen' and 'sanawaat.'
it actually can have two roots ?S N A? or ?S N?, I hope I?m right
But with all that said, just take into account that there is a difference between Quranic era Arabic and Modern Arabic.
of course Ii know that, but the Quran is the standard not what the human invented should be the standard any fallacy in the language will come from us not from Allah for sure
And just because you are an Arabic speaker doesn't mean that you know all of the meanings of all of the words in the Arabic language.
of course, but I can find the proper meaning far easier than the non Arabic speakers, as well can confirm the info I get from others, I hardly open any dictionary to find a meaning of an Arabic word
If you are a good speaker or Modern Standard Arabic it just means that you know most of the COMMON meanings of the Arabic words that you use.
sure, but I also know the grammar rules very well, I just bought three grammar books in Arabic from Egypt to revive my grammar experience and will start going through them from today, one of the books is Quran based
There are alot of meanings of words and words for that matter that were used 100-1000 years ago that people aren't using anymore but that are still in the dictionaries.
yes but Allah is the author of the Quran and He is aware what the people 1400 years use of Arabic words as well He also know all the Arabic vocabularies that the arabs will use in 2006, therefore I don?t think Allah will confuse us rather He selected the most suited and common Arabic words to talk to humanity in all generations, I guess that is easy for Him especially He is the One who created all languages
That is why it is important to get these meanings out of the dictionaries and to consider phrases that may not be popular in 19-20th century Modern Standard Arabic . . .because it is very likely that people in the times before you who, and during the era where Quranic style Arabic was spoken used words differently than Arabs do now.
Godbless,
AnwarOnly with tough and uncommon Arabic words, not the very common ones that were used 1400 years ago and now, like Yatim and many other common words
Peace be with you
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Godbless,
You tried to fight me in the above post. But I can see that you see my point pretty clearly.consider what I say towards the end of my post about Modern Arabic and Old Classical Arabic. Yes God knows what languages people will use at all times but if it were that simple he would have made it in a language that all humans no matter what our separate languages would understand without having to analyze, study, search or critique meanings. That would be easy for him too, wouldn't it?
Godbless,
AnwarI will ask about the balagha matter.
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Godbless,
You tried to fight me in the above post.
Salam bro
bro no fight intended, I only fight the enemy and you are not one of my enemies, in fact I consider you a brother in faith, I'm just a person with very strong beliefs and all logical
But I can see that you see my point pretty clearly.consider what I say towards the end of my post about Modern Arabic and Old Classical Arabic. Yes God knows what languages people will use at all times but if it were that simple he would have made it in a language that all humans no matter what our separate languages would understand without having to analyze, study, search or critique meanings. That would be easy for him too, wouldn't it?
Godbless,
AnwarI will ask about the balagha matter.
ok what I meant that for any langugae native speakers, most common words will be known, common and popular, and a few will not be known, therefore to translate the clearly founded words into totally differnt meanings that will contradict the Quran and the common sense can not be accpeted, very simple equation bro
if I'm not a native arabic speaker I would have been slamming my head in walls right now trying to figure every word in the Quran, but because I'm a native arabic speaker, I don;t need to do that with every word especially the common, well known, well established, clear words
Salam mate
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But with that said, again the Arabic you speak is not the Arabic of 1000 years ago. And what you consider a common meaning is a common meaning in the era, not a common mean 100 years ago.
One of my main points is that as with all languages, common uses and commonly used meanings come and go. I'm sure that you can even admit that Arabic colloquials and their meanings have impacts on the ways that modern educated Arabs use their words.
So just like in English I can read an old text and think I understand it (generally) if I don't understand that fact that some of those words have more than one meaning and the common meaning now was not the common meaning then then I will not be able to understand the word fully.
Yateem has always had the meaning of orphan but it has also always had the meaning of lonely. Just because no-one uses it in the sense of lonely anymore (or it is not common) doens't mean that that meaning wasn't used commonly back 1000 years ago.
There are plenty of obscure vocabulary in the Quran that is not used commonly today in Modern Arabic but they were used commonly during the age of the Quran.
Look in a dictionary and look at all of those not so understood or obscure meanings and understand that the language is bigger than the 20 and 21st century. That is the Arabic that you are experiencing. You are not experiencing the Arabic of 1000 years ago.
When I proposed the grammar rules to you like 'laa ariftu' and 'maa a'rif' you said they they are commonly used. You said that they are grammatically correct just to answer me and because they don't sound foreign, but as I said to you before, alot of old fushaa survives in the colloquials(and an Arabic colloquial which is acutally an Arabic creole is your native language) where it was lost in modern fushaa and vice-versa. The fact is that maa a'rif and laa ariftu are not grammatically correct according to modern fushaa. Ask any teacher or try this, write it down. Write a composition of some sort using the negative in this form and give it to an Arabic high school or college teacher and see if they say that you are speaking colloquial or fus-haa (of course they will be evaluating you based on modern fus-haa.) Equally, phrase a sentence like 'The boys went to the park' using the verb first. But instead of saying 'dhahaba al-awlaad ilaa al-muntazah' say 'dhahaboo al-awlaadu ilaa al-muntazah' and see whether they tell you that that is wrong, colloquial or fus-haa.
I'm kind of repeating myself here but I think you understood all this the first time i said it which is why you responded with
yes but Allah is the author of the Quran and He is aware what the people 1400 years use of Arabic words as well He also know all the Arabic vocabularies that the arabs will use in 2006, therefore I don?t think Allah will confuse us rather He selected the most suited and common Arabic words to talk to humanity in all generations, I guess that is easy for Him especially He is the One who created all languages
It seems like what you're saying here is that despite the simple and obvious differences that I pointed out you want to believe that if God didn't keep Arabic the same or put the Koran in a form of Arabic that would defy the changes that humans have been making to the spoken, native Arabic language and its meanings for over 1400 years then its God's fault for wanting to cause confusion.
Notice that I said "spoken, native Arabic language." Because the Arabic of the Quran which was at one time a spoken native language is no-one's native langauge any more and it is learned in school and preserved through books called dictionaries, lexicons and grammatical lexicons.
It is not God that has cause this point of confusion for you but your teachers and mentors who have given you the wrong concept about what exactly is the Arabic language.
ok what I meant that for any langugae native speakers, most common words will be known, common and popular, and a few will not be known, therefore to translate the clearly founded words into totally differnt meanings that will contradict the Quran and the common sense can not be accpeted, very simple equation bro
But what you seem to refuse to understand is that even though it may seem like it, the Quran is not written in your language. There is not such thing as 'one Arabic langauge.' Your native language is an aamiyah or a lah-jah, the Quran is definitely not written in that language. Secondly you were train from a very early age in a langauge that is highly similar to and that pulls from the Quranic style Arabic (which is only preserved really in old scripts, very high level language compositions and the Classical Arabic lexicons and dictionaries.).
To understand classical Arabic you have to go beyond what you were trained in and understand that Classica Arabic even though it uses the same words and shares the same grammatical patterns as Modern Arabic has meanings to those words which are not commonly used or understood by even in a lot of cases very well-educated individuals.
I don't know if you have ever heard creole English, like the English from Jamaica or Creole portugues or spanish. But your natiive language is like these creoles. They are based off of English, or Portugues or Spanish (and in your case old Classical Arabic) but they have grammar and vocabulary from other langauges, usually West African languages in the case of the Spanish and Portugues creoles and in the Levant (Aramaic, some French and other now extinct local non-Arabic languages) and in north Africa, Berber, French, Spanish etc.
People in Jamaica call their creole English, People in Spanish speaking countries call their creole Spanish and peole in Portuguese speaking countries call their creoles Portuguese. So they automatically have a mistaken idea about the languages that they speak.
Then if they go to school they will learn modern English, Spanish or Portuguese.
In school they will most likely read some old text from about 500 to 600 years ago in what was conisdered back then Spanish, English or Portuguese. They will understand most of it but they will not understand alot, and they won't get the full understanding of everything that it can be saying unless they look up the meanings of just about all of the words and consider even the most obscure or weirdest meanings that even they are not familiar with.
If they have the same concept that alot of the Arab world has, that their language hasn't changed a bit since those times then they are screwed. Because alot of the books and old language will go right over their heads.
You speak a creole. You were trained in modern Arabic, and you are attempting to analyze and understand an old Classical Arabic text. Do not be mistaken and think that you speak exactly the same languag that it speaks. Do not be mistaken and think that your language is to hard to be learned by foreigners. I have had these conversations and arguments since I started studying Arabic in college and I am just as much familiar with the misconceptions that Arabs have about the languages that they speak just as much as the misconceptions that non-Arabs have about the Arabic languages. (Not the plural use of languages)
To get back to the original theme, the use of yateem is in the dictionaries and it does not make the Quran contradict itself, it makes the stories about Muhammad that are based on the Hadeeths and rumors contradict the Quran. Which means that you have to make a choice, the Quran or the rumors. Will you continue to try to force the Quran on the side of the rumors when it never said that Muhammad was an orphan? Or will you side with what the Quran can be saying over what the rumors say?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Firstly anwar
beofre you step on your high horse, YOU MUST PROVIDE A COMPELLING PROVE THAT YATIM DID NOT MEAN ORPHAN 1400 YEARS AGO
IF NO EVIDENCE PROVIDED THEN IT HAS TO BE TAKEN AS WHAT IT MEANS LITERALY
YOU CAN PROVIDE A DICTIONARY AS AN EVIDENCE BUT THE DICTIONARY MUST BE ONE THAT WAS PRINTED 1400 YEARS AGO
THEREFOR YOU CAN NOT PROVE IT
NOW IT IS YOUR CHOCE
TO FOLLOW THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN OR TO FOLLOW CONJECTURE
YOUR CALL
Salam
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Peace Ahmed
I'm not sure how well you comprehend english but it seems you are missing clear dialogue here. You asked
YOU MUST PROVIDE A COMPELLING PROVE THAT YATIM DID NOT MEAN ORPHAN 1400 YEARS AGO
In his post Anwar stated
Yateem has always had the meaning of orphan but it has also always had the meaning of lonely.
I hope you can understand things now. You stated
IF NO EVIDENCE PROVIDED THEN IT HAS TO BE TAKEN AS WHAT IT MEANS LITERALY
I would like to see your compelling evidence that proves yatim did not mean lonely.
Joe
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I'm going to give Ahmed an example that may finally make this register.
Ahmed I'm going to talk about the language that I speak best - English and not discuss 'professional Arabic' at all.
Take the word "SCREW" and the sentence...
"Do you want a screw?"
Now if you read that in a text from the 1900's you would understand that the person meant whether you want a small metallic piece of hardware used to fix things together.
But if you heard it today then you would understand it differently depending on what the context was. It can still mean what it did back then but it has developed a newer meaning.
Say that the the use of the word was 80% the metallic object and 20% the other meaning.
In 1000 years say the materials industry had long abandoned the metallic devices many hundreds of years ago - and the word was now used 99% as the other meaning and 1% the metallic object to refer to these older antique devices.
The nature of words changes.
Even today it can mean more than one thing when you say...
"Kathy got screwed..."
it can mean someone swindled her out of money or something else.
Words and their meanings change and evolve. You are like the person 1000 years from now who might read some ancient materials science books and think the people back then were quite a sick bunch of people using screws for all sorts of things because the meaning of "screw" had changed almost entirely to mean the other thing.
Despite all that's been written to you however your understanding is still probably screwed up.
Regards.
Notice the OLD English meaning of screw came from... "Old French escroue ?female screw, nut,? from Latin scrofa, literally ?sow,? later ?screw.? The early sense of the verb was (late 16th cent.)."
Same thing happens in EVERY other language, none is immune, because these things are dependent on the human mind, society, and our active use of language.
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Forgive the spelling mistakes.
I also meant 'note the use of plural' where I said 'not the use of plural' and I mean that there is 'no one Arabic language', not 'there is not one Arabic language.'
Godbless,
Anwarok man
cheers
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Peace Ahmed
peace joe
I'm not sure how well you comprehend english
about 80 to 90%, depening on the vocabulary used, but this is irrlevent when I read the Quran because i read it in English
but it seems you are missing clear dialogue here. You asked
sure let's see what 1'm missing
YOU MUST PROVIDE A COMPELLING PROVE THAT YATIM DID NOT MEAN ORPHAN 1400 YEARS AGO
In his post Anwar stated
Yateem has always had the meaning of orphan but it has also always had the meaning of lonely.
I hope you can understand things now.
sorry, i could not find that I misunderstood brother anwar, the point is regardless how many meanings the word yatim means it was always and consistantly used in the Quran to refer to the Orphan(s)
therefore in brother anwar thinks it means in the verse as Alone then I would like to see another verse that support the idea and if confirmed, I will accept the idea, very simple
You stated
IF NO EVIDENCE PROVIDED THEN IT HAS TO BE TAKEN AS WHAT IT MEANS LITERALY
I would like to see your compelling evidence that proves yatim did not mean lonely.
Joe
well I never said it does not mean Lonely, it seems here that you are the one that is missing the point indeed, here we go I concede that it can mean alone, but in the Quran, it was cosistantly used as Orphan(s)
that is why I don't need to provide evidences that it means alone, because in the context of the Quran Yatim or Yatama always meant Orphans, I guess being alone does not warrant to care for that person, as well Mohammad was never alone
good night Joe
for truth, I saw your comment addressed to me and I will respond tomorrow ti it inshallah
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Joe
are you a private invistigator? lol
well, I accepted it means that BUT NOT IN THE VERSE OF THE QURAN IT WAS MENTIONED
got it mister PI?
cheers
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I'm going to give Ahmed an example that may finally make this register.
Let?s keep the faith bro
Ahmed I'm going to talk about the language that I speak best - English and not discuss 'professional Arabic' at all.
like a case study you mean, fine, let?s look at your case study
Take the word "SCREW" and the sentence...
"Do you want a screw?"
Now if you read that in a text from the 1900's you would understand that the person meant whether you want a small metallic piece of hardware used to fix things together.
But if you heard it today then you would understand it differently depending on what the context was. It can still mean what it did back then but it has developed a newer meaning.
Say that the the use of the word was 80% the metallic object and 20% the other meaning.
You are missing the following really
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it is not humans who are talking in the Quran, it is the words of a non human, therefore, whatever logic you bring, must be a divine logic, I don?t accept humans flaws in the languages as an evidences
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secondly, forget what the arab used to say 1400 years ago and now, let?s look at the Quran alone context, if you can get me another verse where the word ?Yatim? that is "beyond doubt" meant alone, you will give your case an integrity, other than that, you really bro wasting your time and mine
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The English example you brought in was a bit misleading because you brought in two indentical letters words, but the case we have in hand is different
Alone in Arabic means ?Wahid? and was used in the Quran ONLY ONCE
Yatama as used in the Quran in all ?Plural? locations, meant Orphans, therefore when it was used singular it has to mean an orphan, but what makes me raise an eyebrow that Wahid does not sound like Yatim as Screw sounded liked Screw, see your example is flawed and not accurate
In 1000 years say the materials industry had long abandoned the metallic devices many hundreds of years ago - and the word was now used 99% as the other meaning and 1% the metallic object to refer to these older antique devices.
mate, I careless about all that human stuff, the quran is not human if you don?t mind, therefore you can only explain the quran using the quran, i.e. your only shot is to bring another verse in the Quran where Yatim was used and clealy meant Alone
The nature of words changes.
yeh with humans yes, but not with Allah words, I?m sorry
Even today it can mean more than one thing when you say...
"Kathy got screwed..."
LOL, sure and also Punk and Queer, were not used 1900 years ago
it can mean someone swindled her out of money or something else.
I guess most will think something else, LOL
Words and their meanings change and evolve. You are like the person 1000 years from now who might read some ancient materials science books and think the people back then were quite a sick bunch of people using screws for all sorts of things because the meaning of "screw" had changed almost entirely to mean the other thing.
Despite all that's been written to you however your understanding is still probably screwed up.
Regards.
Alright bro
cheers
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