sex with the captives?
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Peace agentxxx. How about if those verses on crucifiction and amputations are taken metaphorically. Also the arabic can be translated idiomatically into; restricting their free access and movement.(arms and legs.)Just like the hand cutting verse. This is valid in arabic,i know of one translator that translated it as imprisonment,(muhammed ali of pakistan.)by virtue of one arm and one leg being in binds to restrict movement,as a measure to restrict the spread of crime.
Peace all. -
Peace agentxxx,
See http//www.geocities.com/Athens/4796/cuttoff.htm
Here is another possible translation of 538
538"The thief, male or female, you shall take(i.e.confiscate) their property as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."
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Peace agentxxx,
See http//www.geocities.com/Athens/4796/cuttoff.htm
Here is another possible translation of 538
538"The thief, male or female, you shall take(i.e.confiscate) their property as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."
That sort of punishment doesn't happen in real life. By taking away thief's property, one becomes a thief himself. The thief must stand for trial/hearing and if found guilty, punished accordingly. One must take only the property stolen by the thief and given back to their rightful owners. The verse is a bit unclear and doesn't serve a good example, in my understanding.
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peace enquirer,
you wrote
Peace agentxxx. How about if those verses on crucifiction and amputations are taken metaphorically. Also the arabic can be translated idiomatically into; restricting their free access and movement.(arms and legs.)Just like the hand cutting verse. This is valid in arabic,i know of one translator that translated it as imprisonment,(muhammed ali of pakistan.)by virtue of one arm and one leg being in binds to restrict movement,as a measure to restrict the spread of crime.
Bro,I think we can take them metaphorically today, although I don?t think that the people of that time treated them metaphorically? They lived in a different age/time with few generally approved/practiced options available for punishing the culprits, since they couldn?t send the culprits to prisons , they had to punish them there and then according to the nature of their crime.
The bottom line in commandments laid down in the scripture is that those guilty of any crime should be punished this is important to maintain peace and order in a society. The METHOD OF PUNISHMENT can/will vary with the passage of time, and the social setup of a society.
peace.
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Peace agentxxx. I agree with a lot of your very good post.
I wonder if all the people of the past took those verses literally?And was it right to take them literally even in those times?(note in yusufs time they had the infrastructure to build a prison.) I agree with your general comments regarding the scope,method and reason for punishments; however i think the term 'reform' is better than the word punishment. Do we want to punish/brand negatively? Or do we want to negate/change/reform the persons harmful behaviour positively. -
Salaams Agent.
you said
"533-The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed OR CRUCIFIED or THAT THEIR HANDS AND FEET BE CUT OFF ON ALTERNATE SIDES or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution. "
This is the other translation-i think.
523
The only reward (of) those who wage war (against) Allah and His Messenger and spread in the earth mischief that they are fought against or they receive harsh/avericiouse treatment or cut off their power and their freedom from opposing or be exiled from the land that for them ?????.
Remember the law eye for an eye law of Qasaas , quranic law.
When one does something the retribution you will find similer (or forgiveness) from the quranic point of view , anything else can only be wrong.
Shalaam.
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peace simple. That sounds a much more decent,rational and humane interpretation of 533. Quisas i think is not equality( or literal eye for eye.) ,but being rationally proportional to the crime commited.(ie not excessive,due to emotion/revenge.) Forgiveness(or completete forgiveness.) is an important factor,which can be apllied according to the circumstances,especially if remorse is felt as well as an attitude from an individual to reform their behaviour.
Peace all. -
peace enquirer,
you wrote
Peace agentxxx. I agree with a lot of your very good post.
I wonder if all the people of the past took those verses literally?And was it right to take them literally even in those times?(note in yusufs time they had the infrastructure to build a prison.)Thank you bro for your comments, You are right , the Egyptians had the infrastructure but my reference was regarding the Arabs of that time .
enquirerI agree with your general comments regarding the scope,method and reason for punishments; however i think the term 'reform' is better than the word punishment. Do we want to punish/brand negatively? Or do we want to negate/change/reform the persons harmful behaviour positively.
I agree with you, Definitely Reform is a much better term then punishment, and the aim should be to reform a person?s harmful behavior but again it depends upon the gravity of the person`s crime.
Last week a six year old girl was raped and murdered in Lahore, since I loooooove small kids, I simply adore them, and it doesn?t matter who they are, so those who rape or kill these innocent/harmless angels, there can be no reform, only punishment with a capital P for thempeace.
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peace simple,
you wrote
Salaams Agent.
you said
"533-The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed OR CRUCIFIED or THAT THEIR HANDS AND FEET BE CUT OFF ON ALTERNATE SIDES or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution. "
This is the other translation-i think.
523
The only reward (of) those who wage war (against) Allah and His Messenger and spread in the earth mischief that they are fought against or they receive harsh/avericiouse treatment or cut off their power and their freedom from opposing or be exiled from the land that for them ?????.
Salaam bro simple, This translation reminds me of a pentagon spokesman, Who When asked to comment about an air attack on targets in civilian area, responded, ?it was not an air attack but air support for our ground forces?. In Pakistan now a day, when they arrest a popular political figure they say he/she has been taken into protected custody rather then saying the person has been arrested. So I think we may use whatever words we think are appropriate to define a certain law/commandment/statement, in the end what matters is how we implement/apply it.
peace.
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peace agentxxx. I think brother/sister simple made a valid translation,which differed significantly from the original in not being literal.(eg no amputations,crucifixtions etc.)
I agree with your sentiments on crimes against children.(i have two young children of my own.) However i believe reform is still possible,and studying people who commit these horrendous crimes may help us understand how to prevent these atrocities,whilst also keeping these people in a controlled environment so they cant commit further offences ,and may be reformed.If they are just executed how can we learn why these events happen,or reform these people?
peace all. -
peace enquirer,
you wrote
peace agentxxx. I think brother/sister simple made a valid translation,which differed significantly from the original in not being literal.(eg no amputations,crucifixtions etc.)
I like this translation, but contrary to your views, the objection I have concerning this translation is, that it doesn?t reflect the actual Arabic meanings of the words used in this verse.
33-34-The recompense of those who are against the Divine System and go about spreading disorder in the land is execution, crucifixion, physical restraint**** and banishment from the country. This is their punishment and disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have even greater chastisement.
**** The literal meaning of the text is ?to cut their hands and feet.?
I think that this is a better way of explaining a verse, where you explain what the literal meanings of the words/verse are along with the other meanings that are being used.
What I understand from this verse is that crucifixion and amputation are not mandatory but rather optional, so i dont understand the need to Negate the fact that they exist in the verse/quran?enquirerI agree with your sentiments on children (i have two young children of my own.),but i believe reform is still possible,and studying people who commit these horrendous crimes may help us understand how to prevent these atrocities,whilst also keeping these people in a controlled environment so they cant commit further offences ,and may be reformed.If they are just executed how can we learn why these events happen,or reform these people?
May God bless them both with good health, good fortune and a happy prosperous long life ) .
Brother you are talking logically on this issue and perhaps I am talking emotionally, but I simply want to see them disappeared from the society, locked away for good or may be even executed .Peace.
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Peace agent,
if you let me ask, what do you want to know? what the quran really says of also if those practices were correct in the past because the quran mentions or allows them?
What I understand from this verse is that crucifixion and amputation are not mandatory but rather optional, i dont understand the need to Negate the fact that they exist in the verse/quran?
In the past there were no jails where the war captives could be held, so the war captives were distributed amongst the participants of the war and once given to someone they were considered as that persons legal possession and hence he was entitled to practice sex with them .
Now to approve or disapprove this practice is another issue, but to deny that it didn?t happen in the past or that there is no mention in the quran regarding this practice is false as far as my study is concerned. -
Peace agentxxx. Thank you for your very kind words.. May you also be blessed with happiness and success.(and everyone else too.) D
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Paz elena,
you wrote
if you let me ask, what do you want to know? What the quran really says of also if those practices were correct in the past because the quran mentions or allows them?
That?s it hermana , I want to understand EXACTLY what the QURAN ACTUALLY SAYS .
78.And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
This is the way I was until few years back when I decided to study my religion for better understanding. I started with the hadith books and Islamic history, right from the start certain hadiths seemed illogical and absurd, still on the whole things were fine with me, until I started reading the Urdu translation of quran. Then I gradually realized that most of my concepts/beliefs were false and in contradiction to what the quran say. My belief/trust in the hadiths and Islamic history soon shattered.
Now I have found out that even the translation of the verses of quran can be wrong because people have translated them according to their own preferences/desires?
Today dozens of different translations are available for comparison on Internet and there are many disagreements on the meanings of certain words and their interpretations, also about certain commandments, practices, and rituals etc.
The scenario at the moment is
Hadiths----------------------------------------- ----fabricated lies
Islamic history-------------------------------------fabricated lies
Translation of verses one disagrees--------wrong translationSo what and where is the reality/truth? how does a non-Arabic speaker like me distinguish between right or wrong translations? Honestly I have no choice but to go with the translations of the majority while still trying my best to check the meanings of the Arabic words from some dictionary.
I don?t want to know the book of Allah through my desires/guesswork ; I want to know what in actuality was allowed and what was forbidden and why?
We must portray the scripture the way it is.
If sex with the captives, crucifixion, cutting of hands etc are mentioned in the scripture, we must admit it and try to figure out the logical reasons as to why they were allowed. If not then we have to figure out why they have been injected in the translations?
5328-Their attitude is not based on knowledge and reality but on mere guesswork. It is obvious that such guesswork cannot be compared to reality and truth . Such guesswork may work in the era of ignorance, but it loses impact when faced with knowledge and truth.
Information like in the link below also adds to my skepticism.
http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/history.aspI hope you have understood my confusion ? ?
Peace.
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peace agentxxx. I have been through the same scenario that you have. first i read quran in english,then hadith and islamic history. later i studied arabic and learnt how to read for myself.At the same time i read most translations that i could get my hands on. I went through the confusion of ;what is salat?hajj?hand chopping?literalism etc.. I wanted to know what the literal quran said,not what someone translated or interpreted. Then after much soul-searching and discovery...i realised the quran contains some of the general universal laws that are present in all the scriptures,and more importantly those laws that can be discovered by observing life. You watch life itself and see how a child learns..pure investigation and instinct...trying to see things as they are,not as we just suppose or are told they are. Books and scriptures are symbolisms and descriptions for a reality which goes beyond books and words. My confusion started to end when i realised some of the answers are within my own soul and the world around me.
Still your mind of preconceptions and innappropriate thoughts,and just observe things impartially without lots of emotion. You may then see reality as it is. You dont essentially need arabic or a specific scripture to gain enlightenment of reality.These thing are just tools. My mother does not understand the quran(she cant read arabic.) yet many of her morals and behaviours are in line with the quranic morality because she has 50 years and 5 kids worth of life experience and learning. Life is one great infinite scripture,and the language is universal and accesible to all. we dont need to understand the arabic word 'hibb'(love.) to understand what love is. we dont even need the word to understand what love is..A baby can understand love without any words,or extensive study. Your own conscience,experience,intuition and humility are some of the greatest tools we have to understanding reality. Hope this helps.
Peace all. -
Paz agent, thanks for answering
I hope you have understood my confusion ? ? .
The first part of my question yes, the second part, not yet (if you want to know if those practices were correct in the past because the quran mentions or allows them)If sex with the captives, crucifixion, cutting of hands etc are mentioned in the scripture, we must admit it and try to figure out the logical reasons as to why they were allowed.
we must admit that the quran actually mentions them or we must admit too that those practices are right since quran (if) allows them?
and,
what logical reasons can there be in sex with slave girls?
How can you have any doubt that it is not right? depending on a book/revelation? how a book /revelation can make it to look correct, more when you dont know the content of the book well? (the content in general, not only about this subject) -
Peace elena. That is the point i was trying to make...We dont neccessarily need a book to tell us what we know is definately wrong.The book is there as a collection of wisdom and thoughts and an attempt to describe reality and morals from the previous generations understanding,at that time.. Universal facts are found by observing life and from your conscience.We need to use universal facts and our conscience when interpreting the quran,or any scripture/book.
peace all. -
peace enquirer,
Thank you brother for your rational input, I agree with it almost completely, there is indeed no short cut for what you learn through your own experience/observation/analyses in life.
To run any society in a peaceful manner, some general laws have to be observed/obeyed, I believe the essence/importance of these laws now, before, and forever will be the same. They are described in every scripture/orally transmitted, and almost every humane being is familiar with these general laws even if he/she has never read any scripture.
I agree with you that we don?t need to learn Arabic to understand the meanings of honesty, justice, tolerance, love or other general laws/emotions, but to understand some issues knowledge of Arabic could be very handy.
Thank you once again.
Peace.