sex with the captives?
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Peace hamza
just a few more links that might enlighten you about the meaning of ma malakat aymakoum
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malakat.htm
and
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malak.htm
lk
Salaam Elke!
Thank you,FOR the links they helped out perfectly...
May Allah Bless you! -
peace zainab,
you wroteHey brother! By all means you can show it to your wife. If she possesses even with an iota of common sense, she won't be pushed. Please read my post on this thread dated Feb.5.
Her common sense is not a problem, but her anger is. Ok I will read it.
zainabThis law is not valid any longer.
It was valid only as long as slavery was an accepted universal system.I 100% agree with you, I believe we have to keep it in mind that those who are being addresses in 235 and 7024 lived 1400 years ago, in a different age/location with their own set of rules based on their own culture. I think instead of completely denying the fact we should say that this laws is obsolete so its GONE WITH THE WIND.
zainabUnfortunately for men, slavery has now officially been abolished from 'planet earth.'
Yea unfortunately for some.. ?however the likes of taliban still believe it is permitted.
zainabSo, your new choices are.. You either have a free woman as your mistress or stay with your wife.
The problem with taking a free woman for a mistress is, that THEY HAVE FREE MEN TO GUARD THEM so to be on the safer side, it is better to stay with the wife unless... roll
zainabIf you're brave, try telling her this instead of an obsolete law no longer in practice, can you?
I am not sure how brave I can be, but surely I cant be that stupid lol .
zainab Not to worry .. I'll nurse you if you end up with any broken bones
well thank you sister for caring, but I sincerely believe PREVENTION IS BETTER THEN CURE wink .
zainabMoreover, lets not forget, even when this culture was practiced, it wasn't introduced by Islam. It existed hundreds (if not thousands) of years prior to Islam. But Islam implemented several laws & responsibilities on slave owners for the protection of slaves, female slaves in particular.
Sis I agree with all that you have said, for me the worst thing to do is to take undue advantage of one?s position/power. We always had and still have housemaids, we were brought up with this constant feeding from my parents that we have to respect them and protect them from any harm, when we were kids we sometime would misbehaved with them and my father would tell us that we all should be thankful to Allah because he could have switched positions and made them our bosses. He would say treat them as you would have wanted them to treat you if you were in their position. By the grace of God I have never ever mistreated/misused them and insha Allah never will.
Peace.
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Salaam All!
First let me say I understand that slavery doesnt exist(not legally)any longer..My question is does Captives only refer to slaves?Because at times of war,armies and soldiers take captives,but they are not slaves?Walaikum Salaam Hamza ..
In the middle ages and earlier when slavery was a common social culture almost everywhere in the world, captives (both men and women) taken by victorious soldiers were the same as slaves.But nowadays since the social culture has changed and slavery has been abolished, therefore army captives are referred to as prisoners of war. And civilian captives are simply referred to as "suspects" or "collaborators" as we've seen so much of it in Iraq. However, apparently human habits die hard. The number of male and female captives in Iraq who have been sexually assaulted in prisons and elsewhere by American troops is astonishing. And worst of all, because of the primitive and ignorant culture of the society, females who have been physically violated are today not allowed to speak up by their families for the purpose of "preserving family honour." Needless to mention, this primitive 'protocol' suits the American occupiers perfectly well .. and as a result, these 21st century "champions of freedom" violate their captives as much as they like.
The passage of time changes the facade but not the human temperament .. so lets not consider ourselves lucky by thinking that we are living in a better world.
Not to mention the dark and sordid culture of modern sex trade & trafficking particularly widespread in countries like western & eastern Europe, Ukraine, North America, Latin America and South-east Asia. To say the least, women duped and trapped into these organizations by their owners and pimps are treated far worse than the slaves of the middle ages.
JazekAllah Khair ..
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well the bottom line is ...sex is allowed with slave. Thats what all these discussions are summarizing..............giving all these reason of time, culture and whatever are just an excuses to make it sound ok!!..lol
when the traditional muslims do it ..its all legal and tons of reasons are given to justify it...but when so called infidels do it...Its immoral, its shameless, lowering women dignity and what not titles are given..!!... I am just sick of it........Its all hypocrisy.
Peace
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peace shamsul-arefin,
you wrotewell the bottom line is ...sex is allowed with slave. Thats what all these discussions are summarizing..............
this is what i have understood...The taliban were practicing this during their war with the northern alliance before they were overthrown.
sagiving all these reason of time, culture and whatever are just an excuses to make it sound ok!!..lol
Is there any other option brother. I absolutely don?t support having sex with the captives, and I will not try to justify that, no woman can willingly have sex with someone responsible of killing/destroying her family/tribe. However it is my humble opinion that in order to understand the message conveyed through these verses, we have to understand the situation/background and also to whom they are addressed, we also have to keep in mind the time/period. For example
4232?And of His portents are the ships, like banners on the sea;
4233?If He will HE CALMETH THE WIND SO THAT THEY KEEP STILL UPON ITS SURFACE .Today we cannot present such notion as a convincing evidence of Allah?s power even to the kids, because every one knows that the ships of today do not need winds to set them in motion. But At that time when this verse was revealed such evidence was logical.
3134?Lo! Allah! With Him is knowledge of the Hour. He sendeth down the rain, and KNOWETH THAT WHICH IS IN THE WOMBS.
No big deal today, because everyone can find out through ultrasound about that which is in the womb.
2227?And proclaim unto mankind the Pilgrimage. THEY WILL COME UNTO THEE on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every deep ravine.
Today people go there in planes, cars and busses etc so we have to see verses like these keeping in mind the period in which they were revealed.
Coming back to the issue of captives, again this is my humble understanding that it was impossible to abolish all the evils of that time instantaneously; slavery and captives were a part of that culture and although the islam/quran did not put an end to it, but certainly it made thing a lot better for them .
sawhen the traditional muslims do it ..its all legal and tons of reasons are given to justify it...but when so called infidels do it...Its immoral, its shameless, lowering women dignity and what not titles are given..!!... I am just sick of it........Its all hypocrisy.
I think it is a matter of belief, the hadith supporters present tons of reasons to justify them, I agree with you over the double standards like when we kiss our black stone it is right, but when hindus kiss their stone it is wrong.....our aab-a zumzum is right, but their ganga jal is wrong. All other scared books have been changed, but even with many incompatible translations our sacred book.... ?
Peace
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peace sawtooth,
you wroteOK so the Koran IS dated and therefore subject to interpretation besed on time technology and society.
95-But when the forbidden months are past then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
should we slay the pagans after the passing of the forbidden months ?
913-Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths plotted to expel the apostle and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay it is Allah whom ye should more justly fear if ye believe!
can we find any of those today who plotted to expel the prophet?
peace.
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Salaams all,
especially who think one may have sex with captives-i think not.
CONCLUSION
The confusion is you think zawwaj as married and Ma malakat aimanokum Not married-I think.
BUT A ZAWWAJ CAN BE WIFE AND NOT A WIFE ,MARRIED OR NOT MARRIED, SO CAN MA-MALAKAT AIMANOKUM.Zawwaj doing nikkah look to the Arabic.
Fa-in tallaqaha falatahillu lahu min baAAdu hatta tankihazawjan ghayrahu fa-in tallaqaha fala junahaAAalayhima an yatarajaAAa in thannaan yuqeema hudooda Allahi watilka hudooduAllahi yubayyinuha liqawmin yaAAlamoona
So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.
Divorced women = zawwaj(mate) , and they can also marry .
5.Wa-itha tallaqtumu alnnisaafabalaghna ajalahunna fala taAAduloohunna an yankihnaazwajahunna itha taradaw baynahum bialmaAAroofithalika yooAAathu bihi man kanaminkum yu/minu biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhirithalikum azka lakum waatharu waAllahuyaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona
When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying their
husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and Allah knows, and ye know not.Widows = zawwaj (mate), they can marry as they aren?t wives.
6.Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan yatarabbasnabi-anfusihinna arbaAAata ashhurin waAAashran fa-ithabalaghna ajalahunna fala junaha AAalaykum feemafaAAalna fee anfusihinna bialmaAAroofi waAllahubima taAAmaloona khabeerun
If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.
Widows = zawwaj (mate), so they can marry as they are no longer classed as wives.
7.Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatanli-azwajihim mataAAan ila alhawlighayra ikhrajin fa-in kharajna fala junahaAAalaykum fee ma faAAalna fee anfusihinna min maAAroofinwaAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun
Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Allah makes mates not wives! And mates marry you not wives.
9.Ya ayyuha alnnasuittaqoo rabbakumu allathee khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatinwakhalaqa minha zawjaha wabaththa minhumarijalan katheeran wanisaan waittaqoo Allahaallathee tasaaloona bihi waal-arhamainna Allaha kana AAalaykum raqeeban
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.
He makes mates not wives! And mates marry you and not wives.
16.Huwa allathee khalaqakum min nafsinwahidatin wajaAAala minha zawjaha liyaskunailayha falamma taghashshaha hamalathamlan khafeefan famarrat bihi falamma athqalatdaAAawa Allaha rabbahuma la-in ataytanasalihan lanakoonanna mina alshshakireena
It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying) "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."
Allah has made mates of like nature and not wives of like nature?
Allah makes mates but we make them into wives as a formality.So if you say zawwaj = mates , in the same ayah so does Ma Malakat Aimanokum.
WaAllahu jaAAala lakum minanfusikum azwajan wajaAAala lakum min azwajikumbaneena wahafadatan warazaqakum mina alttayyibatiafabialbatili yu/minoona wabiniAAmati Allahihum yakfuroona
And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-
023.005
Who abstain from sex,
023.006
Except with their mates, or whom their right hands possess,- for then they are free from blame.
24.Allathee jaAAala lakumu al-ardamahdan wasalaka lakum feeha subulan waanzala mina alssama-imaan faakhrajna bihi azwajan min nabatinshatta
"He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
Pairs of plants and that is how zawwaj is meant and not as wives.
CONCLUSION
SO AS A ZAWWAJ CAN BE WIFE AND NOT A WIFE , SO CAN MA-MALAKAT AIMANOKUM.I hope you have understood ,if not i will explain again if you like.
God Bless.
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well the bottom line is ...sex is allowed with slave. Thats what all these discussions are summarizing..............giving all these reason of time, culture and whatever are just an excuses to make it sound ok!!..lol
when the traditional muslims do it ..its all legal and tons of reasons are given to justify it...but when so called infidels do it...Its immoral, its shameless, lowering women dignity and what not titles are given..!!... I am just sick of it........Its all hypocrisy.
Peace
It's all about culture & society, it has nothing to do with religion. Therefore yes .. it's time related, not race related, and that's what makes all the difference. Hence if someone does such a thing today (regardless of their race or religion) it will be considered immoral. But if someone did it in the yester years, it would be quite acceptable and in accordance with the social & legal requirements. Such change of laws concerning almost all aspects of human life & habits have been an ongoing process ever since history started being recorded.
Thirty years ago, it was okay to smoke a cigarette in all public places in Canada. Today if you smoke anywhere other than your home, your car or the sidewalks, you could be fined a minimal of $250 or more.
It's all a very, very simple issue. I'm sorry it's proving so difficult for you to grasp. Peace ..
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OK.. slavery AND sex with anyone who does NOT agree to it are both perversions against humanity. Dating the practice is just a cop out. Whether by date or society, there is not justification for this. It's mind boggling. If there IS a Satan, devil Lucifer hell or whatever, both of these acts MUST be the direct result of such a place/being. I cannot believe someone would argue that a god would decree it OK to do either.
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OK.. slavery AND sex with anyone who does NOT agree to it are both perversions against humanity. quote]
Dont' you understand simple English??? How many more times do I have to state that Islam does NOT allow sex with anyone (slave or whoever) who does NOT agree to it. The world culture might allow it, not the Qur'aan.
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That was just a general statement. the fact that it is even in question disturbs me to a degree i cannot possible convey with a simple keyboard. Poeple have to ASK if that is allowed ANTWHERE?? sorry, but that is DAMN disturbing
I guess one doesn't need to be a genius to figure out that your talk is only for the purpose of a confrontation. Therefore, no need to waste any more time ..
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Not at all. It is not to invoke confrontation. i am just a person who is honest about how I feel. I am simply disgusted that someone would have to ask if it is allright to KEEP and acptive and better yet if they can have sex with that captive? How, as a human, can you not see that as distgusting? Anywhere, anytime under any direction, it is simply WRONG! I don't see there being any possibility of a grey area here.
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Peace mz,
Thanks brother for you point of view.
You wroteSalaams all,
especially who think one may have sex with captives-i think not.
My friend it is not a matter of one?s thinking it is to understand what quran says on this issue.
mzThe confusion is you think zawwaj as married and Ma malakat aimanokum Not married-I think.
I understand zawwaj as married but Ma malakat aimanokum can be married or unmarried.
Widows = zawwaj (mate), so they can marry as they are no longer classed as wives.
2240- Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatanli-azwajihim mataAAan ila alhawlighayra ikhrajin fa-in kharajna fala junahaAAalaykum fee ma faAAalna fee anfusihinna min maAAroofinwaAllahu AAazeezun hakeemun
2240- Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And
Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.See how the other have translate this verse
2240.- And those of you WHO DIE AND LEAVE WIVES BEHIND, (make) a
bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.2240.THOSE WHO DIE AND LEAVE WIVES, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave,you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
- And those of you WHO DIE AND LEAVE BEHIND WIVES should bequeath for their wives a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they (wives) leave, there is no sin on you for that which they do of themselves, provided it is honourable (e.g. lawful marriage). And All?h is All-Mighty, All-Wise. .
2240-(In the case of) those of you WHO ARE ABOUT TO DIE AND LEAVE BEHIND THEM WIVES, they should bequeath unto their wives a provision for the year without turning them out, but if they go out (of their own accord) there is no sin for you in that which they do of themselves within their rights. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
mzWidows = zawwaj (mate), they can marry as they aren?t wives.
Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan yatarabbasnabi-anfusihinna arbaAAata ashhurin waAAashran fa-ithabalaghna ajalahunna fala junaha AAalaykum feemafaAAalna fee anfusihinna bialmaAAroofi waAllahubima taAAmaloona khabeerun
2234-IF ANY OF YOU DIE AND LEAVE WIDOWS BEHIND, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.
See how the other have translate this verse
2234 THOSE AMONG YOU WHO DIE and LEAVE WIVES BEHIND, they shall wait four months and ten days before they remarry. Once they fulfill their interim, the society commits nothing wrong by letting them make their own decisions about their future including remarriage. And Allah is fully Cognizant of all your actions.
2234.Those who die and leave wives, their widows shall wait four months and ten days (before they remarry). Once they fulfill their interim, you commit no error by letting them do whatever righteousmatters they wish to do. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
- And those of you who die and LEAVE WIVES BEHIND THEM, they (the wives) shall wait (as regards their marriage) for four months and ten days, then when they have fulfilled their term, there is no sin on you if they (the wives) dispose of themselves in a just and honourable manner (i.e. they can marry). And All?h is Well-Acquainted with what you do.
Widow is a word used to distinctively define the status of a married woman. If the husband is alive she is referred to as a wife, if he has died she is referred to as a widow. Logically a widow would mean an ex wife ]. It Can also be referred to as an ex mate of the deceased. Indeed they can marry again.
mz Huwa allathee khalaqakum min nafsinwahidatin wajaAAala minha zawjaha liyaskunailayha falamma taghashshaha hamalathamlan khafeefan famarrat bihi falamma athqalatdaAAawa Allaha rabbahuma la-in ataytanasalihan lanakoonanna mina alshshakireena
It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying) "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."- It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and (then) He has created from him his wife , in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her. When he had sexual relation with her, she became pregnant and she carried it about lightly. Then when it became heavy, they both invoked All?h, their Lord (saying) "If You give us a S?lih (good in every aspect) child, we shall indeed be among the grateful." .
mzSo if you say zawwaj = mates , in the same ayah so does Ma Malakat Aimanokum.
????????????
mz1672-WaAllahu jaAAala lakum minanfusikum azwajan wajaAAala lakum min azwajikumbaneena wahafadatan warazaqakum mina alttayyibatiafabialbatili yu/minoona wabiniAAmati Allahihum yakfuroona
And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-1672.And GOD made for you spouses from among yourselves, and produced for you from your spouses children and grandchildren, and provided you with good provisions.
Should they believe in falsehood, and turn unappreciative of GOD's blessings?- And All?h has made for you wives of your own kind, and has made for you, from your wives, sons and grandsons, and has bestowed on you good provision. Do they then believe in false deities and deny the Favour of All?h (by not worshipping All?h Alone).
so zawwaj can be interpreted as. Wives, widows, mates, spouses, but none of the verses quoted by you links it with whom your right hands possess?
mz023.005
Who abstain from sex,
023.006
Except with their mates, or whom their right hands possess,- for then they are free from blame.The above verse makes it clear that you can have sex with your mates/wives or whom your right hands possess. the or in the verse Clearly indicates, two different sex partners to choose from.
mzDivorced women = zawwaj(mate) , and they can also marry .
Divorced women = ex zawwaj free from the bonds of marriage, and of course they can marry again.
CONCLUSION
SO AS A ZAWWAJ CAN BE WIFE AND NOT A WIFE, SO CAN MA-MALAKAT AIMANOKUM.I hope you have understood, if not i will explain again if you like.
Absolutely not brother ? I am sorry I fail to see the link between the two zawwaj and MA-MALAKAT AIMANOKUM.
God bless you.
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peace be upon you zainab,
Dont' you understand simple English??? How many more times do I have to state....
a commanding sister.... lol
zainabThe world culture might allow it, not the Qur'aan.
sis there are dozens of different interpretations and we are all trying to figure out what the truth is? masha allah you seem to have a strong belief and you are convinced on this issue. however there are many who are confused regarding this issue so please sis dont be upset if we disagree with you ) .
God bless you.
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Salaams Agent,
here you go
Nisaa = women ,some you can marry others you can?t.
Zawwaj = women/men can marry .
Ma malakat aimanokum = women/men can marry, but they don?t have the same rights as a zawwaj.They are always called Ma malakat aimanokum even if married as they don?t have the same rights as the Zawwaj who are the free women.
425
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.You said ?Absolutely not brother I am sorry I fail to see the link between the two zawwaj married/ unmarried and MA-MALAKAT AIMANOKUM.?
The link;
If you see the ayah tells us of the punishment is different to a free woman. So to differentiate they aren?t called Zawwaj.mz023.005
Who abstain from sex,
023.006
Except with their (mates) Zawwaj (who are free), or (mates)whom their right hands possess(who arn't free ),- for then they are free from blame.God Bless.
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There is a great article on Ma malakat aymanukum on the submission webpage that I found not too long ago http//www.submission.org/women/care.html. The points made in the article are very clear and I agree with most of them. I agree that Ma Malakat Aymanukum are not sex slaves. I think that the only meaning of that phrase is "those who you possess," either by servitude or by marriage. I think that the article makes a great point when it talks about 425 and 2433 where believers are told that they can marry MMA, but they must be chaste until marriage. Both parties must maintain morality. Also the mate who wants to marry them must ask permission of their guardian and they are to be free before marriage. This is clearly an order not to take slaves as sexual objects for mere pleasure. Please everyone read the article as I would like to discuss it with others.
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What is wrong is wrong either its 1000 years ago or now.
I understand ?right hand posses? as someone who is your trusted partner, where both has entrusted each other to support and also love each other. These people can be engaged by oath or like bf/gf..
One can claim his/her rights over another person ONLY when the other person have agreed to share his/her rights.
Slavery and captives are a whole different issue.
peace