gay people and islam
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Peace
I agree. Television is a huge influence to programming people. Same as ads, etc. Television depicts unrealistic things as realistic when they are not. Ads do the same thing. This is where we figure that a certain woman is the right woman, the one who is tall and skinny. Or a certain man is the right man, the one with the cig in his mouth.
Joe
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I am also sure that nobody will sure "America's next to model" for making their daughter anorexic, but that TV show is another portrayal of skinny women who are held up as the most attractive women in society. A young girl who watches the show may conclude that if she is chubby, she is not pretty and therefore decides to start starving herself.
Why are you not even trying to understand the basic point that the images we constantly see and the things that society accepts as normal eventually become normal and ingrained in our psyches. For example, why do most women try to stay below a size 6? Is it because this number is cosmically designed? No, it is b/c soiety has judged this to be the threshold for weight in order to be considered attractive. But nobody questions why this has been placed there, it just is. Parallel this to other societies that could care less about such things, or they may have opposite societal norms that require women to be chubby in order to be attractive.
I am not saying that TV will turn a person gay. I am saying that TV is a mirror of society's opinion of a certain matter. Nobody here is obviously below the age of puberty, so it is hard for us to judge what TV and the constant representation of these social norms do to children who are just developing. How do you know that a 6yr old child watching will and grace doesn't look at Jack and think, "i like dressing up too, maybe I'm like Jack. Maybe I like boys too," without understanding the implications of what the TV is really portraying. I am saying that people who may not understand that TV is fake may be watching it for feedback on how life really is. If you want a real opinion of the effects of American TV, ask a foreigner who just came to the U.S. You'll get a feeling of how immersed most people are in the things that TV really tell us. -
When you talk about anorexia, you are talking about something where a person allready posesses a weakend self esteem and predisposition to self mutilation. the fashion issues may ignite it, but is was already there to begin with. So Will and Grace ain't gonna make a young man get hard over Brad Pitt, unless something of that was there to begin with. see what I mean here?
As far as societies opinion of a socail group ending up on TV, well I hardly consider the fact that society has grown to not only toerate, but accept and embrace so many things that were once not only taboo but illegal (homosexuality, bi-racial couples etc..) a BAD thing. it teaches children that regardless of what someone chooses to do in thier bedroom, who they want to love, what color or religion, what politics they follow... we are all a product of the creator and deserve the same love compassion tolerance and respect.
Is THAT suppose to be bad? It's bad for everyone to be accepted as equall? well gee, I think we just killed Mr. and Mrs. King all over again.
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Hi idolfree1,
The sexual act is done until orgasm, the purpose of male semen coming out is to be connected with an egg, therefore the human with a penis and the human with a vagina are DESIGNED to go together.
Homo SEX uality is incorrect based on OBSERVABLE PROOF in relationship to its design.I would completely agree with ur explanation(and so would everyone else) if the intention behind the sexual act was conception. But at times, when thats not the case, ur logic fails coz anybody who indulges in sex(without the intent of conception) makes sure the sperm and the ovum dont get together.
Do you agree or not regarding the sex act in relationship to the design?
yes but for fulfilling the primary purpose(conception in this case). Not necessarily if the intention is not to fulfill the primary purpose.
But if 2 consensual partners are biologically inclined to feel so, why are we to be concerned?
You have no proof of the biological inclination.
Like I said in my previous post, there seems to be a good propability.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=73899#73899We can only get concerned if the act harms those involved or others. Does it?
It does involve others. You have to be blind not to understand in this day and age the power of media propoganda. People are "trying" homosexuality all over the place, which is evidence of the MENTAL DISORDER that this really is.
Truth is People are trying all kinds of sex......casual sex, swinging, group sex, violent sex, forced sex(rape) etc.....Now would u say heterosexualty(which is the reason behind these acts) as such is sinful or is it that these specific acts are sinful?
O well, u might say the action itself is sinful no matter how normal or natural its for them.
Natural? Whats natural about using a penis in the incorrect manner DESIGNED? If you are going against DESIGN, how can that be natural? Thats a misude of the word.
I meant normal/natural from an hormonal/emotional/spiritual perspective.
And also its a misunderstanding that only homos participate in anal sex.There is a common misconception that anal sex is practised almost exclusively by gay men. This is certainly not the case. An estimated one third of gay couples do not include anal intercourse in their lovemaking. About one third of heterosexual couples try it from time to time.
It is thought that about 10 per cent of heterosexual couples have anal intercourse as a regular feature of their lovemaking. In absolute numbers, more heterosexual couples have anal sex than homosexual couples.
http//www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/analsex.htmHow will u even know if hetros indulge in anal sex in the privacy of their rooms? And even if they do, Why exactly are we to be concerned?
By 'plugs' and 'sockets', I think, u r implying the physical body, right? In that case, life is much more than plugs and sockets. Definitely.
Sure, but all of life is based on the concept of yin and yang. The God created all things in pairs. Imagine the day with no night, or the cold without heat. How could one find balance without the duality of life? In order to obtain the OBJECTIVE PROOF of a relationship so we can get to TRUTH, we must bring this to the physical world. Which brings us to the relationship of penis and vagina, which is clear.
U r mixing 2 different spheres here. one is the physical aspect and the other is the spiritual/emotional aspect. Penis and Vagina are mere physical aspects. I bet u realise, there is more to a man than his penis and more to a woman than her vagina. That is what makes the yin-yang.
Yeah, God created all things in pairs.......The same God created hermaphrodites
Thats a genetic disorder by way of VISUAL, OBJECTIVE ABNORMALITY. Hardly comparable.
Are u saying that every aberration should be physical to be true?
.......... The same God created Homosexuals. So, Now what shall we do?
Following your reasoning by way of no objective proof, we have to say the God created murderers, thieves, child molesters, etc. SHould we make rights for them and make sure all TV shows have a representative of thier group and a lobby group, etc?
Hmm, not a very objective'logical statement here ) . Like I said earlier homosexuality can only concern us if inspite of being biological for some, its harmful to those involved or others. Is it? If yes, how? If no or not really, u already have ur answer.
And who knows...Homosexuals might have yin & yang too?
Exactly, all of creation has yin and yang, and the penis on a human is YANG while the vagina is YIN, very clear arrangement.
Like I said earlier yin yang is not about penis and vagina. It goes beyond physical body parts.
Here's a question. Does a man approach a woman only becoz she has a socket? Is a 'man' attracted to a 'woman'? Or is the 'plug' attracted to the 'socket'?If you can figure out what to do with your door key when you get home, the you should be able to figure this out. D
If the intention is to open the door(which is the main pupose of a key), yes, the key would have to go into the lock and turned. But not necessarily so if the door doesnt need to be opened.
hi all,
i think this discussion has been going too far. and i don't think everyone will ever reach any agreement. i respect opinions from both sides, and i understand all concerns that some of you have addressed on homosexuality.
everyone has the right to speak up their opinions and stand up before their principles.
i think the only agreement that we can reach here is tolerance and peace.Having said all of the above, I agree with topo here. We all can have our difference of opinions as long as we agree on peace, tolerance and fairness to all without any discrimination.
Peace!
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
they are that expensive because of the number of people watching. You are paying for exposure. American football is, for reasons unknown to me, the most watched sport in this country. The superbowl is a huge event, and the commercials are traditionally new, edgey and they used to be worth watching the stupid game for. Because poeple now watch the commercials as much as the game (you can thank "tastes great less filing" "I'd like to buy the world a coke" and "the budbowl" for that) they can chage outrageous amounts for the timeslots.
there ya go.
Good start, now lets concentrate on that word "EXSPOSURE". What does the company who spends 2.5 MILLION DOLLARS for exposure expect to get back from that exposure? Does the company that spends 2.5 MILLION expect to INFLUENCE the viewers?
advertising has an effect, it makes you BUY s*** you don't need, go places you can't afford and drink crap that will make you sick
You mean it will make you do things that HARM your own mind and body? Things that go against your nature? How so?
but I have never heard of it making you jump on someone you are not sexually atracted to (unless you buy the viagra but even then i don't see a man jumping on a man just because it was on TV) it's like hypnosis, it can't make you do something NOT allready in your nature to do
You are asleep to the power of suggestion. Anyone can be CONDITIONED to do anything if put in the right conditions. Is it in millions of humans "nature" to kill themselves with cigarette smoke? Are you saying its the "nature" of young African Americans in major cities to go out and waste money on diamond chains and to wear pants off thier butt? Is it the "nature" of Eurpoeans to enslave Africans?
Lets go to another arena, is it the christians "nature" to worship Jesus?
The only "nature" is that of PEACE, everything else is a condition superimposed upon your PEACE.
No one is stating that after watching "Borkeback Mountain" that you are going to go out and have sex with the same gender, whaty is being said is that the environment is being created to make this perverse act acceptable. The Morals are slowly being desensitised, just like the day merges into the night, so slowly you hardly are aware until you look up and its night already.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
what were the favourite tv channels of Lut's people?
tv is bad but converting hetero people into homo people and viceversa....?!
TV is only an means of COMMUNICATION. Communication of WRONG IDEAS is what we are dealing with in this thread. For you sister I will refer you to Metu Neter to check the faculty called SEBEK, which deals with communication, ideas, beliefs, verbal thoughts, etc.
Most of mankind is sleep, and when you are sleep, you are easy to influence. Do not look at this as an overnight programming, but a slow, steady programming. A slow steady removal of values and morals.
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Media is a means of implanting ideas and getting a certain message across. People make the decisions.
Exactly, just as "adam and eve" were decieved by the COMMUNICATION (whisper)of shayteen to focus on that which they were told they should not go near. The idea was to put the "tree" in thier minds so that it would be part of thier CHOICES.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
they are that expensive because of the number of people watching. You are paying for exposure. American football is, for reasons unknown to me, the most watched sport in this country. The superbowl is a huge event, and the commercials are traditionally new, edgey and they used to be worth watching the stupid game for. Because poeple now watch the commercials as much as the game (you can thank "tastes great less filing" "I'd like to buy the world a coke" and "the budbowl" for that) they can chage outrageous amounts for the timeslots.
there ya go.
Good start, now lets concentrate on that word "EXSPOSURE". What does the company who spends 2.5 MILLION DOLLARS for exposure expect to get back from that exposure? Does the company that spends 2.5 MILLION expect to INFLUENCE the viewers?
advertising has an effect, it makes you BUY s*** you don't need, go places you can't afford and drink crap that will make you sick
You mean it will make you do things that HARM your own mind and body? Things that go against your nature? How so?
but I have never heard of it making you jump on someone you are not sexually atracted to (unless you buy the viagra but even then i don't see a man jumping on a man just because it was on TV) it's like hypnosis, it can't make you do something NOT allready in your nature to do
You are asleep to the power of suggestion. Anyone can be CONDITIONED to do anything if put in the right conditions. Is it in millions of humans "nature" to kill themselves with cigarette smoke? Are you saying its the "nature" of young African Americans in major cities to go out and waste money on diamond chains and to wear pants off thier butt? Is it the "nature" of Eurpoeans to enslave Africans?
Lets go to another arena, is it the christians "nature" to worship Jesus?
The only "nature" is that of PEACE, everything else is a condition superimposed upon your PEACE.
No one is stating that after watching "Borkeback Mountain" that you are going to go out and have sex with the same gender, whaty is being said is that the environment is being created to make this perverse act acceptable. The Morals are slowly being desensitised, just like the day merges into the night, so slowly you hardly are aware until you look up and its night already.
It's in our nature to do what we enjoy and many people enjoy what is harmful to their health. how can someone be conditioned to get a hard on from someone? that is way too clockwork orange. I guess this is why the world has had such success in REconditioning rapists and peodophiles? If it was as easy as TV don't ya think it would have worked there? You cannot blame TV for demoralising the world, blame the structure of society and the breakdown of the extended family, which happened BEOFRE TV.
As for christians, thier need to worship cjhrist is EXACTLY the same as a muslims is to worship the koran and mohomad (ya ya ya i know they don't worship mohomad, but they will attack others for poking fun at this "non idol" person of extreme high regard)
Humans are also predisposed to hunting and gathering, but when that was taken away, a ot of problems started.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
When you talk about anorexia, you are talking about something where a person allready posesses a weakend self esteem and predisposition to self mutilation.
How did this person get "weak self esteem"? Is it genetic or is it CONDITIONING from culture?
the fashion issues may ignite it, but is was already there to begin with. So Will and Grace ain't gonna make a young man get hard over Brad Pitt, unless something of that was there to begin with. see what I mean here?
I see what YOU mean, but its just not what observable evidence verifies. With the growth of IDEA comes the growth of those who follow it. 2 Billion people dont have a predisposition to eat McDonalds food, they are conditioned to look for a quick meal and not be concerned with the effects.
As far as societies opinion of a socail group ending up on TV, well I hardly consider the fact that society has grown to not only toerate, but accept and embrace so many things that were once not only taboo but illegal (homosexuality, bi-racial couples etc..) a BAD thing.
See, now you are getting the idea of SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES! D Good try to ASSOCIATE homosexuals and bi racial couples. The two have nothing to do with each other, but if they could somehow be connected, it might effect the THINKING of some people and make them think "hmm, maybe homosexuality is okay".
But thats what goes on all the time, indescriminate association.
it teaches children that regardless of what someone chooses to do in thier bedroom, who they want to love, what color or religion, what politics they follow... we are all a product of the creator and deserve the same love compassion tolerance and respect.
Yes, and here comes the EMOTIONAL SEQUEL...ahh "Love".... to backup the incorrect association. No to mention that no one is saying not to be respectful and peaceful to those who are not AGGRESSIVE to you.
It never fails in this conversation. No matter how many times it is said that we must remain PEACEFUL to all, the statements of "must be respectful and tolerant" are thrown around as if someone is on here saying go kill all Homosexuals.
Is THAT suppose to be bad? It's bad for everyone to be accepted as equall? well gee, I think we just killed Mr. and Mrs. King all over again.
Stop it! D Stop trying to play on emotion by associating the act of perverted sex with the struggle for African Americans. You are comparing skin color to human choices/actions.
You may not be aware of what s going on but you are good at imitating it, incorrect association and emotion, dangerous combination!
Snake Yeah, eating from that tree will make you this and that (wrong association and emotion).
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You see i cannot debate with someone who is completely ruled by something else. Fine, homosexuality is perverted, anyone who does it will go to hell in a handbasket and the whole world should reject any human who entertains the thought, even if it leads to teaching hatred and fear to children.
You win
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Peace
even if it leads to teaching hatred and fear to children.
If you tell your children to avoid the drug (illicit) dealers and to remain aloof from those who are immersed in the whole web of addiction is it teaching hate and fear? I'd tend to think these things are what may develop, though they can be taught. Still it does not mean preaching against the act of homosexuality is teaching one to fear it. Hate it, yes, there are things we must hate. I abhor all things evil and averse to what is good according to God's judgement.
Joe
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Peace be upon you Peaceful Muslim,
idolfree1 wrote
The sexual act is done until orgasm, the purpose of male semen coming out is to be connected with an egg, therefore the human with a penis and the human with a vagina are DESIGNED to go together.
Homo SEX uality is incorrect based on OBSERVABLE PROOF in relationship to its design.I would completely agree with ur explanation(and so would everyone else) if the intention behind the sexual act was conception. But at times, when thats not the case, ur logic fails coz anybody who indulges in sex(without the intent of conception) makes sure the sperm and the ovum dont get together.
Yes, and thats why birth control pills cause so much havoc as well as condoms. Your only foundation of response is based on using the "tools" for somethnig OTHER THAN thier purpose. When PURPOSE is brought into the conversation, the case is closed, there is no other PURPOSE for the semen that comes out of a penis except to be matched with an egg inside of a WOMAN.
idolfree1 wrote
Do you agree or not regarding the sex act in relationship to the design?yes but for fulfilling the primary purpose(conception in this case). Not necessarily if the intention is not to fulfill the primary purpose.
Any other purpose besides the primary purpose should be a simulation of the primary purpose. We are suppossed to be transcending animal passions, not letting them lead us to perverse nature. Homosexuality is the product of sexual excess, when in fact we are suppossed to be very moderate in that field. Chaste.
idolfree1 wrote
Quote
We can only get concerned if the act harms those involved or others. Does it?It does involve others. You have to be blind not to understand in this day and age the power of media propoganda. People are "trying" homosexuality all over the place, which is evidence of the MENTAL DISORDER that this really is.
Truth is People are trying all kinds of sex......casual sex, swinging, group sex, violent sex, forced sex(rape) etc.....Now would u say heterosexualty(which is the reason behind these acts) as such is sinful or is it that these specific acts are sinful?
All of that is PERVERSE, and Homosexuality is part of all that.
idolfree1 wrote
Quote
O well, u might say the action itself is sinful no matter how normal or natural its for them.Natural? Whats natural about using a penis in the incorrect manner DESIGNED? If you are going against DESIGN, how can that be natural? Thats a misude of the word.
I meant normal/natural from an hormonal/emotional/spiritual perspective.
Hormonal? If a human has a penis, its because the hormones(messengers) delivered the mesasage that the cells in that body should form a penis. Same with a female. So your response about hormonal is incorrect.
And also its a misunderstanding that only homos participate in anal sex.
What did I say above about anal sex? It is wrong for ANYONE to do.
How will u even know if hetros indulge in anal sex in the privacy of their rooms? And even if they do, Why exactly are we to be concerned?
Because when you see yourself as part of a WHOLE, then you become concerned about all the parts. I am not implying compulsion, just proper education. You are concerned about education right?
idolfree1 wrote
Sure, but all of life is based on the concept of yin and yang. The God created all things in pairs. Imagine the day with no night, or the cold without heat. How could one find balance without the duality of life? In order to obtain the OBJECTIVE PROOF of a relationship so we can get to TRUTH, we must bring this to the physical world. Which brings us to the relationship of penis and vagina, which is clear.U r mixing 2 different spheres here. one is the physical aspect and the other is the spiritual/emotional aspect. Penis and Vagina are mere physical aspects. I bet u realise, there is more to a man than his penis and more to a woman than her vagina. That is what makes the yin-yang.
I will wait until you do more study of the terms yin and yang, because it is obvious from your responsethat you have not done much study of this topic.
Quote
Yeah, God created all things in pairs.......The same God created hermaphroditesIdolfree1
Thats a genetic disorder by way of VISUAL, OBJECTIVE ABNORMALITY. Hardly comparable.Are u saying that every aberration should be physical to be true?
I am sayin that there are people who are straight, have children and everything, THEN TURN HOMOSEXUAL. People dont TURN into hermaphrodites, nor do hermaphrodites turn back into the natural form (except through surgery)
idolfree1 wrote
Quote
.......... The same God created Homosexuals. So, Now what shall we do?Following your reasoning by way of no objective proof, we have to say the God created murderers, thieves, child molesters, etc. SHould we make rights for them and make sure all TV shows have a representative of thier group and a lobby group, etc?
Hmm, not a very objective'logical statement here . Like I said earlier homosexuality can only concern us if inspite of being biological for some, its harmful to those involved or others. Is it? If yes, how? If no or not really, u already have ur answer.
"Biological" is a guess, at least admit to that so I know this is not a usless debate. Yes, homosexuality is harmful because it is the option of DEATH TO THE HUMAN RACE. It does not produce offspring. What an abomination that NONE before THEM have done. You know how I know none before THEM have done it? Because they are here to prove it. If thier ancestors were homosexual, they would not be here, just as none of us would be here.
Like I said earlier yin yang is not about penis and vagina. It goes beyond physical body parts.
Here's a question. Does a man approach a woman only becoz she has a socket? Is a 'man' attracted to a 'woman'? Or is the 'plug' attracted to the 'socket'?No, there is attraction on all levels. While we are talking about attraction, please explain the yin and yang of magnets. What happens when you put the positive with negative? Now try positive with positive, what happens?
idolfree1 wrote
If you can figure out what to do with your door key when you get home, the you should be able to figure this out.If the intention is to open the door(which is the main pupose of a key), yes, the key would have to go into the lock and turned. But not necessarily so if the door doesnt need to be opened.
Whats another purpose for it?
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Hi idolfree1,
You are comparing skin color to human choices/actions.
I suppose this is where the difference in understanding lies. U see homosexuality as a human choice.
I am opposed to the idea of homosexuality as a choice as well just as I am opposed to the idea of casual sex, swinging, violent sex, group sex etc
But in whom homosexuality may be biological(these people loathe the idea of being with the opposite sex and are only attracted to members of same sex), We cant do much about it than accept the reality, I guess.Peace!
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
It's in our nature to do what we enjoy and many people enjoy what is harmful to their health.
Your nature is PEACE, unless you identify with the NAFS that you were supposed to be in charge of. You must realize that there are two parts of you, a part that WILLS and a part that CARRIES OUT. The part that CARRIES OUT is teh EMOTIONAL/ENERGETIC part of you, that part that WILLS is the NON EMOTIONAL/NON ENERGETIC part, the part that is FREE, the part that is AT PEACE.
When you say its our "NATURE" , yuo have to realize yuo are talking about what is NATURAL. Smoking cigarettes is NATURAL? How do you reason?
how can someone be conditioned to get a hard on from someone?
I guess you will have to study and reflect more to see how. I certainly dont want you to blindly believe what I am saying, I want you to verify it. I hope that you will get that SEED from this discussion that will be nourished by TRUE LIFE.
that is way too clockwork orange. I guess this is why the world has had such success in REconditioning rapists and peodophiles?
There is no success because "they" dont understand the spirit"nafs" and how it works, much less that it is NOT WHO THEY ARE. Locking someone up behind bars where they rape and molest is HARDLY the proper method to condition someone not to rape and molest, wont you agree?
If it was as easy as TV don't ya think it would have worked there? You cannot blame TV for demoralising the world, blame the structure of society and the breakdown of the extended family, which happened BEOFRE TV.
First of all, TV is one of MANY means, I only used that as an example because it is so powerful and common to us all. Second, where do you see TV being used as a means to help promote rigteous behavior?
As for christians, thier need to worship cjhrist is EXACTLY the same as a muslims is to worship the koran and mohomad (ya ya ya i know they don't worship mohomad, but they will attack others for poking fun at this "non idol" person of extreme high regard)
I agree 100%, my point stands.
Humans are also predisposed to hunting and gathering, but when that was taken away, a ot of problems started.
O yeah, what about the cultures that used agriculture as oppossed to relying on hunting and gathering?
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Peace be upon you,
You see i cannot debate with someone who is completely ruled by something else.
That would be observable LAW.
Fine, homosexuality is perverted
Correct, just one of MANY perversions in the world.
anyone who does it will go to hell in a handbasket
One who manifests those actons is alread in the fire in respects to that action. Being controlled by LUST is to be in Hell.
and the whole world should reject any human who entertains the thought
The whole world should reject the perverse act, not the human being. We should want for our brothers and sisters what we want for ourselves. I CERTAINLY would want someone to correct me and show me the TRUTH about what I am doing that is wrong.
even if it leads to teaching hatred and fear to children.
There is nothing in my approach that would teach children hatred and fear. In fact, my position is to teach humans to TRANSCEND EMOTIONS, such as LUST. Hate and Fear are also emotions that must be transcended, so there should be no reason for you to worry about the children. If you were really worried about children you would prevent them from seeing such perverse images.
You win
Not me, God's Universal LAW.
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They all STARTED as hunter gatherer's/ When becoming sedintary, they developed the classic social disorders that go along with it
When i mentioned the rapists and such i was referring to the RECONDITIONING treatments tried, not prison. They fail. If people an be MADE to become homosexual, then why can they not be MADE NOT to be rapists?
what is a "nafs"?
I didn't say "smoking" was natural, what I said was natural, is doing what we enjoy and at times that entails things that are bad for the body.
As for TV being used to promote riteous behaviour, that is actually all over the set over the last few years, at least in the US. there has been a major call on dramas put out to encourage humans to see and correct certain faults and to encourage tolerance, inner understanding and peaceful, understood ways. Just open your eyes.
Plus there is the 700 club (despirte the fact that it is a christian thing, it still promotes many of the same behaviours and choices promoted by islam)
Does this work either? I doubt it. TV is entertainment. Choices are influenced far more by the home, neighborhood, comunity and experience.
As for homosexuality, I don't think that is a choice, you are or you are not. People may at times experiment to find out for sure, but it still comes down to what floats your boat. denying what you are is as much a sin as faking who you are