gay people and islam
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Peace "sawtooth",
So then it is OK to screw around with God's creation? besides hormone therapy is no simple thing. Plus there is evidence that homosexuality CAN have something to do with underdeveloped part of the brain. what then?
JK- Ofcourse corrective surgery is allowed and this is one case where it would be required. What to do if simaese twins are born? Even in that case it would be required? Or what if somebody is born with other correctable deformities? What about kleptomaniacs? The brain issue has not been proved and i dont believe it. How can an underdeveloped brain part cause someone to be a homo? Show me that evidence by neutral non homo scientists. Lets just suppose this underdeveoped brain theory is true. Do you know what neurologists claim? Everything is controlled by the brain and the human is nothing but a machine. Hence murder, rape etc are all because of some fault in the brain. Could well be claimed. Should we thus stop punishing them? I believe the answer is no. GOD Bless!
Note GOD does not create humans like that. It is because of the manipulations which humans have done to the envirnment through all their pollution, junk and perhaps even their sexual behaviours in the past that are responisble for such deformities. None is to blame but ourselves.
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if the definition of having intercourse in the manner designed by god is only vaginal, what about oral sex?
maybe this kind of thing that makes people oppose birth control too? that sexual intercoursee is 'designed' by god to make babies, thus birth control is not allowed, as it's against the nature of having sex itself? -
this issue has been quite sensitive, but we need to start discussing it in relation to islam as a progressive way of life. nobody wants to be born different from mainstream/normal form of life, much less to be born as gay. you can't ask not to be born as black, nor handicapped, nor gay.
Peace Topo
I can't imagine who would ask to not be born black.
Well anyway as for asking not to be born handicap that would be a condition that is not behavioral but physical.
Being gay is behavioral. You have a choice regarding behavior perversions. Otherwise why not have sex with children and animals. There are people with all sorts of behavioral abnormalities. Some of those people are really nice and fun too. Should be embrace them as well?
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this issue has been quite sensitive, but we need to start discussing it in relation to islam as a progressive way of life. nobody wants to be born different from mainstream/normal form of life, much less to be born as gay. you can't ask not to be born as black, nor handicapped, nor gay.
Peace Topo
I can't imagine who would ask to not be born black.
Well anyway as for asking not to be born handicap that would be a condition that is not behavioral but physical.
Being gay is behavioral. You have a choice regarding behavior perversions. Otherwise why not have sex with children and animals. There are people with all sorts of behavioral abnormalities. Some of those people are really nice and fun too. Should we embrace their behavior as well?
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Peace "topo",
and nobody can guarantee either that a heterosexual relationship will last forever. aren't there so many heterosexual couples who got divorced and remarried for several times in their lives? doesn't this mean that heterosexual people can transfer STD from their previous wives or husbands to their new partners? why only heterosexual people who can get married and divorced and remarry again without being accused of trasferring STD? there is no evidence that only homosexual activities that will transfer std. every sexual intercourse, either hetero or homo, has the same risk of std.
JK- Heteros if they involve in anal sex, which is the issue, are as bad as homos. Otherwise while using the vagina it's ok. Diseases mostly arise from anal sex not vaginal. Anal sex is the culprit and it should be banned completely. Also let me tell you that hs is not genetic by any means. Nobody is born a homo. I personally was getting attracted to boys in school. I relaized immediately that it had nothing to do with my genes but with my inner evil intentions. I wanted to try out something new, more lust, more pleasure. Sometimes even now those evil thoughts come into my mind and after a few minutes i almost always realize how evil and satanic this is. I feel satan on my mind, i really do and i know that a homo once came to my mother into the clinic(shes a doctor) in germany and admitted that he felt in his heart that hs is completely wrong. Ive noticed from my own body experience that the human is capable of directing his lust at anything, at anything at all, even animals. If this is not stopped it gets out of control and after a few years we men would insert our private parts in every kind of thing and then it will be too late to stop the diseases as unknown viruses and extremely harmful ones utterly detsroy our immune system. GOD Bless!
Peace JK
May the God reward your loan of righteousness and choosing of good over evil.
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Peace "topo",
if the definition of having intercourse in the manner designed by god is only vaginal, what about oral sex?
JK- Thats a good qs and i was just thinking about that too. Well i believe if we want to be completely honest then oral sex(insertion not mere licking id say) would also not be right.
maybe this kind of thing that makes people oppose birth control too? that sexual intercoursee is 'designed' by god to make babies, thus birth control is not allowed, as it's against the nature of having sex itself?
JK- I dont think so since nowehere do i find in the Quran a slightest hint that sex is their only or child birth. If that were the case then the clitoris would also be vestigial and i cant believe that. No, no i believe sex is meant both for childbirth and pleasure. The manner designated by GOD actually involves "clean sex". Read this underlined part of the following verse again
They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."
And anal sex is definitely NOT clean. GOD Bless! -
so the quran forbids anal and oral sex?
if the issue is actually the forbidden anal and oral sex, what about gay guys who are so gay who then do surgery to make 'fake' vagina? it will not allowed either? if he has vagina, he can then marry his gay partner as the sexual intercourse would not be anal?
i used to live in indonesia, and there is this very religious moslem gay guy in indonesia who did surgery to be a woman, and he/she wears headscarf and everything, in fact she's a celebrity there. once she went to do hajj, and it was the time when many people were killed in Mina, and many religious nuts in indonesia blamed her for this. that it was the punishment from god because she is supposed to be a guy, but dresses up and behaves like a woman. is it fair to treat her like that?
you know guys, i think we need to start looking human being not by their gender. man or woman or transvestite or gay, they are all the same. -
JK-
actually most STD's are going to be transfered via vaginal to penial intercouse. Only those ascosiated more wth blood transference are more likely to occur with anal intercourse. ALSO because of the need for lubrication, condoms are more often used for anal than vaginal. As for homosexuality being behaviour over biological, the jury is still out pending further study of chromosomal and cerebral differences between homo and hetero. And for teh surgery to fix things, if you allow hormonal therapy to fix a homo, do you allow for gender reassignment to fix things n the other direction? And what of those born with both x and y chromosomes? Are they allowed to choose their gender based on how they FEEL or is that just behaviour and their gender should just be decided based on what is more physically pronounced in their body? You are walking a fine line here between what is allowed or justified and what is not. It sounds more like it is up to the individual to once again "interpret" things to assist their means to and end..
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Peace all,
We've had various discussions about this issue. I was going to scream Not again! but I realize that won't help, so I'll offer my insight on this.
There is a fallacy usually commited by both parties in the homosexual debate the naturalistic fallacy. The pro side said some homosexuals are born that way. The contra side said homosexuals are an aberration. Both carry the assumption that 'if something is natural, then it must be morally right'. I think that this assumption is wrong. Something can be natural and be considered morally wrong. For instance, a lot of people have inborn xenophobic tendencies--does that mean xenophobia and bigotry is right because it's natural? No.
Just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's right.
ps Topo, I'm Indonesian too, I know about that transexual person. I think his/ decision for a sex change is wise.
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How can it be tested if xenophobia is a genetic trait? one would have to be isolated at beirth. Nurture VS nature. Afraid of a threat or threatened by an unknown of course, that is natural and it also aids our survival. other than that, there is no way to prove it.
and if someone IS born NATURALLY homosexual, should they fix it? (if they can) lives as they were made? or live the lie and fake it? Why should they be condemed to mental and emotional mysery because god made them that way. what possible offence is there before birth to allow for that, unless you believe in reincarnation?
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How can it be tested if xenophobia is a genetic trait? one would have to be isolated at beirth. Nurture VS nature. Afraid of a threat or threatened by an unknown of course, that is natural and it also aids our survival. other than that, there is no way to prove it.
That's what I mean by the innate xenophobia tendency. Most humans are like this. Doesn't mean that it is right to use it as an excuse to do bad things in the name of our natural xenophobia?
and if someone IS born NATURALLY homosexual, should they fix it? (if they can) lives as they were made? or live the lie and fake it? Why should they be condemed to mental and emotional mysery because god made them that way. what possible offence is there before birth to allow for that, unless you believe in reincarnation?
For this I have no answer. I'm not an apologist either. Someone can be born gay, or mentally retarded, or blind. It's just the way things are.
I know it seems unfair and evil, but I cannot defend any entity here.
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xonophobia denotes and irrational fear, usually ascociated with a change into hate. Natural fear is one that denotes a fear of a physical threat and will often subside when a threat is no longer sensed. BIGdifference.
As for how someone is born, you are right there are o answers, therefore there should not be a punishment either
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Peace topo and all. I think topo has made a number of outstanding posts on this isue,I think re-reading and pondering on them would be instructive.
Not all gays indulge in anal-sex,indeed some straight couples do this.(i personally think it may be unhygenic and harmful). To compare a gay person with a child-molester is in-correct. Gay men/women have consented and should be making an informed choice.
What about people born with both male and female organs? What choice should they make? As for the organs only having one function(ie straight intercourse),well we also urinate through these organs-does this make them dirty?( we also use our bum for sitting on!) Is kissing wrong,beacause the mouth is meant for eating and talking?
Peace all. -
Peace all. Peaceful muslim and leyla also made some good points on this thread. I think topo is a welcome addition to the forum,and i hope we get some knowledge from this dialogue.
Peace. -
Hello
There is an important point that was not discussed, do homosexuals have a Hidden Agenda, the folloiwng may give some light to the answer
Do Homosexuals Have A Hidden Agenda?
A homosexual author named Michael Swift has stated "Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigeur....We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons....The family unit will be abolished." That is one indication of the pathological attitude some homosexuals have towards the opposite gender.Here is another indication. A homosexual named Mark Dennis has admitted in the Wall Street Journal that "the gay agenda...plans the end of 'breeders' (heterosexuals) through a takeover of public education. " In other words, some homosexual activists want the public schools to eventually teach that normal man/woman sexual relations are wrong!
Another indication of the pathological attitude some homosexuals have towards the opposite gender is this quote from a lesbian named Geri Cox "The older I get...the angrier I get. Especially with men. I've gotten to the point where I hate men." That anti-male attitude is common among lesbians, as this next quote shows.
"Because a general disenchantment with and suspicion of all males was central to lesbian-feminist doctrine, the gay man was naturally seen as being no less an enemy than any other human with a penis, and lesbian-feminists could make no lasting coalition with gay men in a gay revolution. " That from lesbian author Lillian Faderman. Sexist attitudes are so common and strong among homosexuals that even "natural" allies, homosexual men and lesbians, find working together difficult if not impossible.
Here is a similar quote from a homosexual man, Dennis Altman There is "disinterest of gay men in women's issues and...hostility of gay women to much of the gay male movement. "
Simon LeVay, another homosexual author, disclosed that "Gays and lesbians fought their own private battle of the sexes . Gay men were generally made to feel unwelcome in lesbian bars, and vice versa."
Similarly, a homosexual man named Eric Marcus admits "Sexism between men and women was just rampant in the early 1970s in the gay community in the larger cities. "
Professor Martin Duberman, a homosexual, acknowledged that "sexism...is rampant in the gay male."
A reporter for the pro-homosexual Chicago Tribune, Grant Pick, noted in 1993 "Sexism persists among homosexuals...and lesbians, in particular, cite instances of discrimination from male homosexuals. "
A reporter for the pro-homosexual Chicago Sun-Times, Ernest Tucker, in an article titled "Girlcott hits sexism at gay parade, " related that two lesbian groups planned to boycott the 1997 North Side Gay and Lesbian Pride Parade in Chicago "because they say gay men among the spectators harassed them verbally and physically in the past. "
A big clue which helps explain all that sexism found among homosexuals is contained in these words from the homosexual Dennis Altman "Undoubtedly for many homosexuals there is something threatening in the idea of intimacy with the other sex. "
One well-known homosexual, David Geffen, has admitted that he "was afraid of the opposite sex, " according to biographer Tom King, a fellow homosexual.If homosexuals allow themselves to have warm feelings for the opposite gender, they might begin to doubt their homosexual identities. So, many homosexuals develop negative feelings for the opposite gender. This homosexual fear of intimacy with the opposite gender, this heterophobia, helps account for all that sexism found among homosexuals.
Another kind of discrimination practiced by some homosexuals besides the abovementioned kind is discrimination against normal heterosexuals. As Jon Margolis, a one-time (liberal) columnist for the Chicago Tribune, noted In "the theater, fashion, much of the cultural and intellectual world, it actually helps to be a homosexual, with the discrimination going the other way . "
This homosexual prejudice against heterosexuals is due in part to many homosexuals believing they are superior to heterosexuals. Professor Martin Duberman admits that "classism" (elitism, a sense of superiority) is a prevalent feeling among homosexuals.
Besides the aforesaid homosexual prejudices, Altman says there is also a "quite considerable presence of racism in the gay world. " Professor Duberman agrees. He mentions "the endemic racism in our community" and states that "racism...is rampant in the gay male."
LeVay also referred to the "racism within the gay and lesbian community. " Author Frank Browning, a homosexual, similarly noted "the racial divisions in San Francisco gay life. "
A black lesbian named Deborah Johnson "found that the gay and lesbian community was much further behind than the straight community when it came to basic civil rights ....hen black people showed up at meetings or social gatherings, they would get the cold shoulder. Nobody would ever talk to them. The insensitivities were really bad. And there were racial comments all the time. "
A black homosexual named Keith Boykin devoted a whole chapter of a book he wrote to this particular prejudice. He titled that chapter "Gay Racism. "
And a columnist for the homosexual newspaper Windy City Times, Dan Perreten, admits "Racism is evil, and it's alive and well in the gay community. "
To sum up all these quotes, of which the vast majority are from homosexuals themselves
there is a strong tendency for homosexuals to be prejudiced, heterophobic people who discriminate against the opposite sex and heterosexuals.
Many homosexuals like to "bad mouth" the opposite sex because they want to create ill will between the sexes. (To learn some of the sexist jokes homosexuals like to tell, and some of their racist jokes, see the book More Man Than You'll Ever Be by Joseph Goodwin, Indiana U Press, 1989.) For example, homosexuals might say something like "Women are just nags who marry for money." Many homosexuals would love to keep men and women apart. Let's not let them.
One last intriguing item "Girl Scout staffers writing in the book claim that roughly one in three of the Girl Scouts' paid professional staff is lesbian. " . What are all those lesbians doing there? Are they trying to take over the organization? To recruit young girls?
References
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Michael Swift, "For the homoerotic order," Gay Community News (Boston), Feb. 15-21, 1987.
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Mark Dennis, "AIDS and deep denial," Wall Street Journal, May 26, 1993, p. A19.
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Martha Barron Barrett, Invisible Lives (NY William Morrow Co., 1989), p. 248.
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Lillian Faderman, Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers (NY Columbia U Press, 1991), p. 212.
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Dennis Altman, The Homosexualization of America, the Americanization of the Homosexual (NY St. Martin's Press, 1982), p. 222.
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Simon LeVay and Elisabeth Nonas, City of Friends (Cambridge, MA The MIT Press, 1995), p. 61.
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Eric Marcus, Making History (NY Harper Collins Publishers, 1992), p. 265.
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Martin Duberman, About Time (NY Gay Presses of New York, 1986), p. 336.
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Grant Pick, "Outward Mobility," Chicago Tribune, Feb. 7, 1993, section 10, p. 16.
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Ernest Tucker, "Girlcott hits sexism at gay parade," Chicago Sun-Times, June 14, 1997, p. 11.
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Altman, p. 222.
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Tom King, "I am in love with Cher," Chicago Sun-Times, March 15, 2000, p. 50.
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Jon Margolis, "Politics, fashion, parents' dreams," Chicago Tribune, Jan. 13, 1986, sec. 1, p. 13.
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Duberman, p. 336.
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Altman, p. 221.
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Duberman, p. 337.
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Duberman, p. 336.
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LeVay, p. 158.
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Frank Browning, A Queer Geography (NY Crown Publishers, Inc., 1996), p. 167.
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Marcus, pp. 442-43.
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Keith Boykin, One More River to Cross (NY Doubleday, 1996), p. 212.
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Dan Perreten, "Moral Minority," Windy City Times, May 28, 1998, p. 15.
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Kathryn Jean Lopez, "The Cookie Crumbles," National Review, Oct. 23, 2000, p. 32.
Thanks for reading
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Peace "sawtooth",
actually most STD's are going to be transfered via vaginal to penial intercouse. Only those ascosiated more wth blood transference are more likely to occur with anal intercourse.
JK- The anus contains harmful germs which are always there. The vagina would only contain such if the woman has been into adultery or had sex with many men. I believe GOD makes it very clear ion a subtle manner that Anal Sex is a devilish act. Maybe thats why the curse of GOD is on the male homos. We never see a community annihilated because of lesbianism though im ofcourse not saying that this is correct as per 235-6 BUT i can say that lesbianism is way not as bad as gayism.
ALSO because of the need for lubrication, condoms are more often used for anal than vaginal.
JK- Once the lust reaches climax condoms are often put aside. Besides the chance of a condom bursting are not low.
As for homosexuality being behaviour over biological, the jury is still out pending further study of chromosomal and cerebral differences between homo and hetero.
JK- Lets just hope that the "jury" is unbiased and not homos themselves. I beleieve that an unbiased jury will find that hs is not genetic or biological.
And for teh surgery to fix things, if you allow hormonal therapy to fix a homo, do you allow for gender reassignment to fix things n the other direction?
JK- I dont see why not.
And what of those born with both x and y chromosomes? Are they allowed to choose their gender based on how they FEEL or is that just behaviour and their gender should just be decided based on what is more physically pronounced in their body?
JK- If it is dangerous to his body that he chooses in the opposite sex direction of the one biologically preferred then the the other should be preferred. Otherwise he/she may choose. I dont see any problem here since ultimately GOD is controlling the mind of each individual anyways.
You are walking a fine line here between what is allowed or justified and what is not. It sounds more like it is up to the individual to once again "interpret" things to assist their means to and end..
JK- I dont think so. GOD doesnt prohibit us to choose out gender especially when there is a biological conflict due to our own errors committed in the past. Show me where He did? GOD Bless!
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Peace "elena",
Peace AhmedBahgat,
There are angry, racist, sexist, harrasment, prejudice, discrimination among heterosexual people too. Doesn't that annul your approach?
JK- But they dont have a "hidden agenda" which the homos apparently do and that is another very dangerous thing. However I beliueve the main culprit is "anal sex" and this is what I believe GOD condemns, if but subtly in the Quran. GOD Bless!