What is our relationship with angels/jinn?
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Peace,
Same reason I put forward in the other topic1850 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they all submitted except for Satan, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. "Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy?" Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!
6112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
Here is one surah I came across about seeking only God
1336 And those to whom We have previously given the Scripture rejoice at what has been sent down to you, but there are some of the groups that reject parts of it. Say "I am only ordered to serve God and not join any partner with Him. To Him I pray and to Him is the return."
These may be of some help also
1753 And say to My servants to speak that which is best. The devil plants animosity between them. The devil was to mankind a clear enemy.
1754 Your Lord is fully aware of you, if He wishes He will have mercy on you, or if He wishes He will punish you. And We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
1755 And your Lord is fully aware of who is in the heavens and the Earth. And We have preferred some prophets over others, and We gave David the Psalms.
1756 Say "Call on those you have claimed besides Him. For they have no power to remove harm from you or shift it."So calling on others beside Allah is useless,no one can change or alter things for us by answering our prayers,even if they could hear them.Only THE GOD has such powers...
And 1336 has "I am only ordered to serve God and not join any partner with Him. To Him I pray and to Him is the return."
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Thanks for the reply. Gives me a good basis to construct from. So here is my take
1850 - this no doubt talks of the devil and his ilk, who are enemies of the Prophets and the believers. In 6112 we find that there are humans and Jinns that are enemies of the prophets - hence to use this ayat to argue that all jinn are enemies of the prophets is like saying all humans are enemies of the prophet. Hence, one should disregard both the evil men and the evil jinn, the two which inspire each other. So I would say these two ayats do not address the issue of believing jinn, the existence of which is revealed in 721-2, 7211-14 (which reveal that there are jinn that submit to the will of God and jinn who do not, just like there are men who submit to the will of God and men who do not).
1336 - It is true that where the word "serve" is used in the translation of the Koran I have, it is used as something that should only be done with respect to God. But I would think it stupid to assume that this means we cannot render service to our fellow man, to help him out when he is in need. I think we are looking at two different meaning of the word serve. As for joining partners with him, I do not think that a jinn can help a human in any more profound way than a human can help a human... however the skills of the jinn may well be different so they can provide us with things we can use in this lifetime, and vice-versa. Like a trade - I am good at growing wheat and you good at raising sheep, and at the end of the day we do a trade. Why cannot we make similar trades with the believing jinn - perhaps there is something useful they can provide us with (like maybe techniques for fighting evil jinn - perhaps they are better than we are, whereas we are perhaps better at fighting the evil of men). So I'm not talking of praying or placing them above ourselves, but more along the lines of conversations and trade amongst equals - of course within limits set by God.
The various ayat saying that God does not reveal his "unseen" to anyone (such as 7226, 659) are often used to justify that we should not have communication the jinn because we don't see them. However, this conjecture is false, because when we look at other ayats, we find that the jinn cannot be part of the "unseen" according to the terminology of the Koran
2765 Say "No one in the heavens or on earth knows the Unseen, except Allah; and they will have no inkling when they shall be resuscitated"
3414 excerpt "Then, when he fell down, the jinn realized that, had they known the Unseen, they would not have continued in the demeaning punishment"
These two ayats are quite clear in saying no one, human, jinn, or angel, knows the Unseen, except Allah, and therefore it is illogical to say that the jinn and the angels are part of the Unseen. So therefore, there does not seem to be any Koranic block to getting in contact with the jinn or the angels.As for 1756, I am in total agreement with you. We must realize that here God is talking of a certain kind of harm. For example, a doctor has tools to help us heal our physical wounds - what of the non-physical wounds to us inflicted by the devil or evil jinn - would it not be logical to ask the believing on their kind to help us heal those wounds. I'm not talking here of the harm we cause ourselved by doing evil or ignoring God, but rather the harm that which has inflicted upon us by something from outside ourselves, such as bacteria, viruses, humans, and evil jinn? Surely we can ask a doctor for help in healing our bodies from the damage inflicted by bacteria or viruses, so why not ask help from the jinn in healing damage done to us through the evil deeds of the evil jinn?
So in sum, I am not suggesting that human, jinn, or angel can lighten the burden that I will judged upon on judgment day. I am rather talking of help in this lifetime for the purposes of this lifetime. We are physical and spiritual beings, and for too long we have ignored temporal damage that can be inflicted on our nafs.
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Peace Claurianta,
Your asking,If its okay to seek their help in earthly matters and not spiritual,correct? Im not sure on this,for one how do we not know that we are not working with evil jinns that are messing with us ? Maybe some one who is more knowledgeable on the topic of jinns will reply..as for me I would be very cautious..for example what if you were encountered by an evil jinn disguised as a good jinn or angel and they began telling you that Jesus was Lord,or appeared as the Virgin Mary? Spirits have been known to do this and decieve people..many will even leave when the name of Jesus is said....so I would be very cautious...
check this site out
http//www.islaam.faithweb.com/jinn.html -
Peace Claurianta,
Your asking,If its okay to seek their help in earthly matters and not spiritual,correct? Im not sure on this,for one how do we not know that we are not working with evil jinns that are messing with us ? Maybe some one who is more knowledgeable on the topic of jinns will reply..as for me I would be very cautious..for example what if you were encountered by an evil jinn disguised as a good jinn or angel and they began telling you that Jesus was Lord,or appeared as the Virgin Mary? Spirits have been known to do this and decieve people..many will even leave when the name of Jesus is said....so I would be very cautious...
check this site out
http//www.islaam.faithweb.com/jinn.htmlI do echo your caution... it is the same caution we must exercise with our fellow humans, to make sure their intentions are pure.
As for that website you posted, it is rather one sided, and totally ignores the information on jinn in Sura 72 of the Koran which clearly states, more than once, that there are believing jinn and evil jinn (amongst the latter is the devil).
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well, like u said, if the quran is to be believed then there are good ad bad djinns, just like humans!
##also, the quran says they see humans from whence the humans cannot see them! so i am not sure if they are not seeable or whether they stay clear out of sight of humans, maybe thats why sometimes we have the illusion of seeing someone and then we find there is nobody! perhaps the djinn ducks out of sight quickly enough. or maybe they are in a different dimension. idea
and as for making contact with djinns, it seems its beyond our ability, atleast the realised, maybe there is latent ability, like god gave/activated in the case of solomon. and i do not think djinns can normally make any physical contact with the humans, ofcourse i have no idea why i am using the word 'normally' here. that said i hope some djinn does not take that as a challenge and decide to spook the hell out of me. -S
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I do echo your caution... it is the same caution we must exercise with our fellow humans, to make sure their intentions are pure.
As for that website you posted, it is rather one sided, and totally ignores the information on jinn in Sura 72 of the Koran which clearly states, more than once, that there are believing jinn and evil jinn (amongst the latter is the devil).
What about
In the name of God, The Beneficent, The Merciful. Praise be to God, the LORD of the Nations. The Beneficent, the Merciful. King of the Day of Judgement. You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help. Guide us on the right path. The path of those whom You have blessed. Not those who wrath is upon, nor those who astray. Surrat ul Fate'ha, 1.1-7
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In the name of God, The Beneficent, The Merciful. Praise be to God, the LORD of the Nations. The Beneficent, the Merciful. King of the Day of Judgement. You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help. Guide us on the right path. The path of those whom You have blessed. Not those who wrath is upon, nor those who astray. Surrat ul Fate'ha, 1.1-7
So, since God is the only one we can ask help from, I can't ask my human friends for help when I need it? Or if I'm stranded somewhere I shouldn't ask for help in getting home, because I can only ask God for help? Come on, this logic makes absolutely no sense. That "help" must mean something different - like only he can help us on matters relating to the Judgment day or the crimes we have committed against him and other such things.
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Peace "claurianta",
So, since God is the only one we can ask help from, I can't ask my human friends for help when I need it? Or if I'm stranded somewhere I shouldn't ask for help in getting home, because I can only ask God for help? Come on, this logic makes absolutely no sense. That "help" must mean something different - like only he can help us on matters relating to the Judgment day or the crimes we have committed against him and other such things.
JK- I believe neither u nor the others got it tht GOD is controlling everything. Ofcourse you can ask people for help but it doesnt mean anything else like you say. The help sought by a believer is always through GOD and thats the whole point. If i ask somebody to help i must not forget that it os none but GOD controlling that other person too in order for his visual help to be successful. GOD is doing everything, never forget that but i guess it takes sometime to understand that. GOD Bless!
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If i ask somebody to help i must not forget that it os none but GOD controlling that other person too in order for his visual help to be successful.
Its simple enough to blindly believe that "God is controlling everything". But then one eventually asks how. That is, in what manner and to what degree does He "control"?
We run into problems when we start to think that God breaks His own laws, or initiates "miracles". Let me explain;
Pick up a stick, and drop it. It will hit the ground. Now, if one asked God not to let the stick drop to the ground, God would not break His own laws of gravity and intervene (even though He could).
In like manner, if we pray to God to have somebody help us, God is not going to jump into the brain of that person and force them to help out.
idea My understanding of the concept that God is in control of all things, is that He is "in control" by virtue of having created and set up the laws by which everything operates.
! We are to have faith and trust in God because of the knowledge that nothing will deviate from His system.
I feel it is a big mistake to hold on to the notion that God will intervene in everyday affairs, breaking His own laws.
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Peace "nazz",
If i ask somebody to help i must not forget that it os none but GOD controlling that other person too in order for his visual help to be successful.
Its simple enough to blindly believe that "God is controlling everything". But then one eventually asks how. That is, in what manner and to what degree does He "control"?
We run into problems when we start to think that God breaks His own laws, or initiates "miracles". Let me explain;
Pick up a stick, and drop it. It will hit the ground. Now, if one asked God not to let the stick drop to the ground, God would not break His own laws of gravity and intervene (even though He could).
In like manner, if we pray to God to have somebody help us, God is not going to jump into the brain of that person and force them to help out.
idea My understanding of the concept that God is in control of all things, is that He is "in control" by virtue of having created and set up the laws by which everything operates.
! We are to have faith and trust in God because of the knowledge that nothing will deviate from His system.
I feel it is a big mistake to hold on to the notion that God will intervene in everyday affairs, breaking His own laws.
JK- The fact that GOD is controlling everything is very clearly mentioned in the Quran
Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles. When something good happens to them, they say, "This is from GOD," and when something bad afflicts them, they blame you. Say, "Everything comes from GOD." Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?
And PLEASSSSSSSSE dont make the same mistake of claiming tht GOD does not break the socalled "laws of natures" which we have termed ourselves. When GOD says in the Quran that his system never changes He means the following
Messengers before you have been rejected, and they steadfastly persevered in the face of rejection. They were persecuted until our victory came to them. Such is GOD's system that will never change. The history of My messengers thus sets the precedents for you.
They almost banished you from the land to get rid of you, so they could revert as soon as you left.
This has been consistently the case with all the messengers that we sent before you, and you will find that our system never changes.
So we have to read it in the context. NOWHERE, i repeat, NOWHERE does GOD ever say in the Quran that He doesnt violate the laws of nature. TO THE CONTRARY He indicates by the following verse that Hes NOT SUBJECT to the laws of nature
The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
Hence GOD doesnt have to wait for the laws of nature to come into act. To clsim siuch would be blasphemy and to claim thats what He always does is false too since GOD said
The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
So we do NOT run into any conflict. Morover to answer your question how does GOD control. Just think of this world as "matrix" and the answer should be right there. Also read my previous article http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4700 GOD Bless! -
G'day jonny_k!
JK- The fact that GOD is controlling everything is very clearly mentioned in the Quran
I'm fully aware of this, and was never disputing it. My angle was how God controls everything.You quoted verses about God's system never changing, and subtley inferred that I had those in mind when I stated that God does not violate His own laws. On the contrary, I did not have those in mind at all.
The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is. Hence GOD doesnt have to wait for the laws of nature to come into act.
Of course, but this verse does not prove that He violates His own laws either. No one doubts God's absolute power to do anything, anytime. The issue is whether he does, or rather, how often and in what circumstances.The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
Absolutely. But is this simply another allegorical verse demonstrating God's absolute power? Afterall, the word "example" is right there up front. Even if this is an actual case of God utilizing His power in such a way, when did God issue this command? (Before creation? or during Mary's lifetime? This relates to your other interesting post (and also to my other post exactly like yours which you haven't read yet))So we do NOT run into any conflict.
Not "conflict" as such, but we are still no closer to the truth on the matter. Let's see another example;A woman is walking down the street at night. Two thugs attack her. She prays to God for help. There's nobody anywhere to help. IF it was God's will to help her, Would God jump into the brains of the thugs and literally "force command" them to turn around and go home? Again, He Could, but Would He? I'm arguing that He wouldn't, because God has put in place a system here which he does not violate.
idea I read your other post, and you may be surprised to know that I posted pretty much exactly the same thing a little while ago, elsewhere. Its brief, you should take a look because we are actually of the same mind.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4879&highlight=systemHope to hear from you!
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God is not limited by the law. The law is limited by God.