Quran - The Word of God or Man.
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Peace all,
For the biased, preconceived and the close-minded aside, does anyone here has the slightest doubt or even certain, that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.
I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times. We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways.
With over 6+ billion people at hand, I?m sure there lies several such men bearing intelligence and wisdom of ultimate reality, in as much as our own present times reveal, the events such as 9-11, tsunami, San Francisco and Pakistan earthquakes, New Orleans disaster, Iraq war, priestly molestations, the Jordan, Peterson and the Jackson case, certified gay/lesbian marriages, mad-cow and bird-flu syndromes, stories of Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Princess Diana, MLK, and abundance of such stories from throughout the world can be gathered, edited, revamped, compiled and written in a book to represent the spirituality of a ?revelation? in its most truest form, to be read, studied, understood and reflected upon for the generation of the next millennium, only to find out that it is the 'absolute' truth revealed by God to the ?author? of this book. Let them unfold, do their homework and take the challenge.
I stated my thoughts with a clear "free-mind" approach, looking at it practically and naturally, with no displeasures intended. Thanks in advance for your understanding.
Edited.
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Peace all,
For the biased, preconceived and the close-minded aside, does anyone here has the slightest doubt or even certain, that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.
I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times. We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways.
With over 6+ billion people at hand, I?m sure there lies several such men bearing intelligence and wisdom of ultimate reality, in as much as our own present times reveal, the events such as 9-11, tsunami, San Francisco and Pakistan earthquakes, New Orleans disaster, Iraq war, priestly molestations, the Jordan, Peterson and the Jackson case, certified gay/lesbian marriages, mad-cow and bird-flu syndromes, stories of Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Princess Diana, MLK, and abundance of such stories from throughout the world can be gathered, edited, revamped, compiled and written in a book to represent the spirituality of a ?revelation? in its most truest form, to be read, studied, understood and reflected upon for the generation of the next millennium, only to find out that it is the 'absolute' truth revealed by God to the ?author? of this book. Let them unfold, do their homework and take the challenge.
I stated my thoughts with a clear "free-mind" approach, looking at it practically and naturally, with no displeasures intended. Thanks in advance for your understanding.
Edited.
Why such a focus on the afterlife and monotheism if it was merely a worldly work?
Second, I must say that to come up with such a text that has yet to be proven to have an inconsistency or falsehood would be one hell of a feat for even the most educated men - that not one of the local superstitions or false beliefs made its way into a book - a book, which was written not in the language of the educated peoples of the time, but the language of the common man (In ancient societies, like the arabian society, there was a tendency to have one language for the religious and official, and then there was another one that was spoken on the street - arabic was just that latter kind of language - try finding a religious text written in Arabic prior to the Koran, and you'll be hard pressed to find one).
So though I would agree that there seems to be no conclusive 100% proof that it is the word of God, the fact is that even the most educated men of OUR time could not put together something similar. Not one statement has been proven false through science, which is quite a feat for a book 14 centuries old, which talks a lot about scientific phenomena.
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Peace all,
For the biased, preconceived and the close-minded aside, does anyone here has the slightest doubt or even certain, that the Quran is NOT the actual word of GOD but of man or men of intelligence and wisdom, collectively put together for the betterment of a righteous society.
I believe all spiritual books were written and carried over by philosophical/mystical men in accordance with historical and the then present events that unfolded during their respective times. We, as their future generation, can only reflect upon these books to better understand our own pathways.
With over 6+ billion people at hand, I?m sure there lies several such men bearing intelligence and wisdom of ultimate reality, in as much as our own present times reveal, the events such as 9-11, tsunami, San Francisco and Pakistan earthquakes, New Orleans disaster, Iraq war, priestly molestations, the Jordan, Peterson and the Jackson case, certified gay/lesbian marriages, mad-cow and bird-flu syndromes, stories of Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Princess Diana, MLK, and abundance of such stories from throughout the world can be gathered, edited, revamped, compiled and written in a book to represent the spirituality of a ?revelation? in its most truest form, to be read, studied, understood and reflected upon for the generation of the next millennium, only to find out that it is the 'absolute' truth revealed by God to the ?author? of this book. Let them unfold, do their homework and take the challenge.
I stated my thoughts with a clear "free-mind" approach, looking at it practically and naturally, with no displeasures intended. Thanks in advance for your understanding.
Edited.
Why such a focus on the afterlife and monotheism if it was merely a worldly work?
And why not? Ask this same question to the one who wrote the Quran (or the Injeel, or the Torah or the Zabur or the Dalai Lama or the Gita or the etc.) at their times, each focusing on the afterlife and monotheism. Second, if all such books weren?t for the worldly works for humans to understand and reflect upon, then what, why and who are these books meant for?
Second, I must say that to come up with such a text that has yet to be proven to have an inconsistency or falsehood would be one hell of a feat for even the most educated men - that not one of the local superstitions or false beliefs made its way into a book - a book, which was written not in the language of the educated peoples of the time, but the language of the common man (In ancient societies, like the arabian society, there was a tendency to have one language for the religious and official, and then there was another one that was spoken on the street - arabic was just that latter kind of language - try finding a religious text written in Arabic prior to the Koran, and you'll be hard pressed to find one).
My post above has nothing to do with language barriers, inconsistencies nor falsehoods. Nevertheless, perhaps you should listen to classical "gazals" and "sher-o-shiaries" and witness how you sweat upon them.
So though I would agree that there seems to be no conclusive 100% proof that it is the word of God, the fact is that even the most educated men of OUR time could not put together something similar. Not one statement has been proven false through science, which is quite a feat for a book 14 centuries old, which talks a lot about scientific phenomena.
Very biased and unrealistic statements. The fact is, that you are in no shape or form to know or have known every ?most educated men/women? of OUR time nor have the capacity to read zillions of books available throughout the world to check for its inconsistencies and falsehoods within them. For starters, have you read the Dalai Lama or the Gita in its entirety or are you simply close-mined on Quran.
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Peace all,
I hope Claurianta doesn't mind my reply...My post above has nothing to do with language barriers, inconsistencies nor falsehoods. Nevertheless, perhaps you should listen to classical "gazals" and "sher-o-shiaries" and witness how you sweat upon them.
Your post asked why someone would think that the Q is the word of God. Clau answered you in his/her own way, you cannot demand a particular answer from another person. Clau stated that since arabic was a street language, it is important in the implication that the Q is divine. Taking an undeveloped language and manipulating it into one of the best books in that language is quite a feat, esp by someone that others claim is untutored.
Very biased and unrealistic statements. The fact is, that you are in no shape or form to know or have known every ?most educated men/women? of OUR time nor have the capacity to read zillions of books available throughout the world to check for its inconsistencies and falsehoods within them. For starters, have you read the Dalai Lama or the Gita in its entirety or are you simply close-mined on Quran.
Your comments seem unnecessarily harsh considering that the discussion has just begun. I do agree that it is subjective to say that nobody can write such a book, but it depends on what criteria we are judging the book on. If we are to say, "write a book in an undeveloped language and make it the best of its kind while at the same time predicting future science and unknown history, while at the same time maintaining some sort of mathematical structure to the book(neusemantics, etc)..." then we have a criteria upon which to judge the book. Also, I have read the Gita and the Dalai Lama's writings and I can attest to the fact that they are both highly inconsistent, esp the Gita, and not as highly inspired as the Quran. Of course, this is a subjective judgement...
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Nevertheless, perhaps you should listen to classical "gazals" and "sher-o-shiaries" and witness how you sweat upon them.
I'm not quite sure what these have to do with my post. I will admit I am not well acquinted with them and will thus refrain from commenting.
The fact is, that you are in no shape or form to know or have known every ?most educated men/women? of OUR time nor have the capacity to read zillions of books available throughout the world to check for its inconsistencies and falsehoods within them. For starters, have you read the Dalai Lama or the Gita in its entirety or are you simply close-mined on Quran.
Now, I am somewhat acquinted with the Dalai Lama's philosophy, as well as Buddhism in general, and it is a very respectable philosophy, or religion if you may (and I think probably gives us one of the best methodologies for cleaning our nafs or soul or all evil). As for the Gita, I am not well enough acquinted with it to make comment. However, I will say that I am not one to pretend that the Koran is the only communication between God and man. First of all there are the Jewish Prophets and Jesus. I also know that the Upanishads contain many of the same ideas as the Koran (parallels between Koranic God and Brahman - parallels between certain Vedic conceptions of the lesser gods and the attributes of God in the Koran- parallels between the idea of Atman which is similar to the nafs in Islam - the permanence of the Atman or nafs). I know of similar ideas existing in the religions of the Native Americans.
So no doubt, these ideas have gone around... what we must ask ourselves though how did these ideas end up in the holy books? Was it all human invention? Is it just human to believe in some kind of higher power? Did people around the world come up with similar ideas separately, or did they tell each other of their inventions so that the same ideas ended up in all the holy books? OR, perhaps this higher power decided to communicate with humans on several occasions, revealing every time the same universal truths? We have to ask ourselves what is it that we believe in. My vote goes for a higher power (who goes by many names - Allah, God, Yahweh, Brahman among many many others) that has been revealed its message on several occasions to messengers of the many civilizations of this planet, and knowing that I will touch the nerve of many on this board, I will say that I believe this higher power continues to reveal to messengers the same message. In some cases this higher power doesn't say much (the law given to Moses consisted of ten simple rules) whereas in other cases he is more verbose (Upanishads) and in others he strikes a balance (the Koran). Some of these have been modified, rewritten, interpreted by humans and then presented as gospel truth (the New Testament comes to mind as a prime example) whereas others have had a less tampered history (the Ten Commandments and the Koran come to mind - I am not well enough informed of the history of the Upanishads or the works describing the life of the Buddha to make a judgment on them).
We live today in a world where we have easy access to most of these works, some closer to their original revealed versions than others. And I am sure they can all tell us much of our existence here on this little planet of ours. The Koran tells us to clean our nafs - and I wouldn't be surprised to find many good methods (though not necessarily ALL the good methods) in eastern spirituality. We have to realise that despite many manifest differences in how the religions including Islam have developed over the years, at the bottom core there are things we can learn from each other - things that are not incompatible, but rather complimentary, giving us a more profound understanding of God's system by comparing the different ways he explained it to the various cultures within the context of those cultures.
A work like this is one of a lifetime, and requires critically looking at all the information presented before making an informed choice. Accepting something thanks to blind faith is not going to get us anywhere. Denying something for the same reasons is also not going to get us anywhere. I am truly sorry if my post showed some sort of closed mindedness, as I do try to be open minded and critical of everything that comes in front of my nose. And at the moment the Koran has definitely peeked my interest because it is unlike any book I have read. I like to practice my intellect with it by trying to find inconsistencies, which I have not yet found. Now, the way the Koran is constructed is that it is falsifiable, but unfortunately we haven't yet found a method to prove the truth of its entirety (no, I don't believe in code-19). I've seen enough in my life and in the Koran to believe it is of divine origin until someone shows me proof that it is of human origin, or I discover such proof myself.
I will admit that there are moments when I read something in the Koran and I simply look at it think "But that can't be", thinking I may have found a falsehood or contradiction of some sort. Without fail, though, these come from ambiguous ayats, which only start making sense when combined with a clear ayat (the 37 rule). And I wouldn't be surprised if the holy scriptures of the other religions could help us decipher some of the ambiguous ayats (again, through critical analysis instead of blind faith and personal prejudice).
So I will restate my assertion that for me, the evidence points to the divine origin of the Koran. This is not to say it is not the only scripture that has a divine origin, because that would simply be an untruth. Muhammad was not the greatest messenger of all time. He was a messenger just like those that have gone before him and those that have come after him, and will continue to come. And unfortunately most people will continue to not listen, and others will continue to try to distort the message for their own benefit. Free will is such.
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Peace danish and all. I personally think the quran is a mans(or possibly mens) opinions,interpretations,theories of the world,metaphysics,experience,knowledge, predictions and hopes.I dont doubt that there is a lot of wisdom,truth and correct predictions/scientific facts in it. The writer was very learned. What the writers intention was i am not 100% sure,but i will say he wanted society to be cleansed and pure. However if one takes the quran literally in todays society i believe a lot of harm can be caused.(look around at societies that follow literal translations) And if one takes a metaphorical understanding then you can interpret the quran to whatever you want it to say. I try to take ideas from the quran,but realise the knowledge is(in some parts)subjective,relative,incomplete, a different time/context,not applicable any more and sometimes wrong, or misunderstood knowledge from the author.. I thought in islam only god is perfect? If the quran is perfect isnt that two gods? However i do believe benefit can be gained from it, if it is taken as ideas and filtered through a persons conscience, brain and other present knowledge(including science and other texts) in order to benefit all life.
Peace all. -
Hello Danish
with my respect bro, the Quran does not say that it is written by wise men and women
it sayd something else bro, so if you are going to claim this big one you need to bring compelling proofs from the Quran
but what puzzles me, if it is is written by wise men and women, why they didn't tell us who the hell they are?
thanks bro
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Peace Danish,
You raise an extremely pertinent question in some respects. When reading the koran it is inevitable that one is going to wonder about some passages and their purpose. There is clearly a filter throughout the verses of the koran in which you know that if the perfect knowledge was available it would be stated clearly, but there's a degree of simplification of some concepts; dare I say it, in an evasive way.
There's no doubt at all in my mind that there is a high degree of inspiration in the koran and that it is inspired by the God, but to say that it is the verbatim word of the God is in all respects incorrect in my opinion. The barrier, the veil, the filter of the human is present and to even suggest that one could encompass or witness the unadulterated pure truth of the God is a sort of blasphemy. Like wanting to witness the God with your eyes or other senses for example I think.
So I must say that I do witness the filtration present, the human mind being inspired and relaying the message as clear as humanly possible - and that's the key - afterall the message is being relayed by a human in a language limited to his and his societies consciousness and intellect.
The ideas and concepts are pure and I think any text that is inspired cannot but necessarily have the concepts within like the essential concepts of monotheism, etc.
I've sometimes wondered whether a new text could be written, try it in your mind if you wish; and it's truly a formidable challenge. I mean that in the every sense of the word - formidable.
Ultimately you must ask yourself, why do I want something other than the reading? What would a new text bring?
I happen to believe that chapter 98 is a prophetic one; that the proof is something that is yet to come. It is something we may have had a hint of with the mathematical codes discovered so far (19, neusemantics), but I think there is something more; something that unifies everything and is incontestable to every believer in the God.
Some people I've spoken to privately believe that there may be a hiddenmessage within the message - that some underlying code will one day bring out something more. You are communicating a similar desire for something more I think.
But why look for a hidden message? I think that it is quite clear what righteousness is when you look within your own self. There is a moral sense that is hard to deny. It's also in the reading, what more is there to it?
Regards.
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Peace ,
i used to believe that quran is the direct word of god, to be taken litterally. This idea of mine was also based on code 19. Have changed my mind somewhat Still believe that quran is one divinely inspired scripture and also the most recent and purest existing. But when god says "i will surely preserve it" - does he mean the quran or the teachings of the "kitab-universe"? I nowadays tend to the "kitab" and the essence of the message. Why ? Because applicable laws should be adapted with society evolving and also because we do know that quran is written by human beings even if inspired by god. the book didn't just fall down from the skies, there are different versions, signs and verse numbers have been added aso...
lk
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Peace ,
i used to believe that quran is the direct word of god, to be taken litterally. This idea of mine was also based on code 19. Have changed my mind somewhat Still believe that quran is one divinely inspired scripture and also the most recent and purest existing. But when god says "i will surely preserve it" - does he mean the quran or the teachings of the "kitab-universe"? I nowadays tend to the "kitab" and the essence of the message. Why ? Because applicable laws should be adapted with society evolving and also because we do know that quran is written by human beings even if inspired by god. the book didn't just fall down from the skies, there are different versions, signs and verse numbers have been added aso...
lk
I agree... one of the things that would bring one to this conclusion is the quite repetitive use of the word "we" - that is the first person PLURAL. Why would a God that has gone to great lengths to decribe his singularity then go about "we" when speaking in the first person, and then in the third person singular (either the name Allah followed by a singular third person verb, or the pronoun "he" "??") when wanting to emphasize God wants something to be done? I would say this means that the Koran is not word for word from God - I am one to think that God is above language - and that rather his servants, the angels (or perhaps just one, Gabriel "?????", but then why would be speakingin the plural), put it together for Muhammed in Arabic, a tongue he could understand. Note it is "we" who sent down the scripture in Arabic, and not "Allah" or "he" (122, 1337, 16103, 20113, 3928, 4144, 427, 433 all use "we" instead of "he" - not one ayat connects God with the Arabic tongue).
Let us also not forget that the Koran states that it is the Mother of the Book "?? ?????" that is with Allah (1339) and 37 clearly states that the Koran we have is part Mother of the book, part something else (allegorical, ambiguous, similar depending on the translation). 1338 also states that every age has its own book - doesn't this kind of defeat the assertion that the Koran is the only and the last book?
I don't this kind of thinking detracts anything from the greatness of the Koran and its message. It is this kind of information which will enable us to better understand and interpret the Koran. It of course flies in the face of orthodoxy, the sort of core deep down sunni beliefs most of us on this board have still not been able to shake off, even if we were never part of the sunni. Comments?
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Peace elke and claurianta. I think there is a lot of wisdom in your two posts. We need to update our understandings with the passage of time and science(ie what is the the essence of the message) for different situations and societies;like elkes and idol-frees idea of kitab as the knowledge of universe or experience. And clauriantas astute observation that deep down we still have some shackles in our thinking(pre-conceived ideas and fear) from our primary experiences of organised or fixed religion.
Peace all. -
Hello
We for a singular in arabic and hebro languaes is used for honor and respect, this is very common
in datc it is even very common in other language
please explain the me why the Queen of England call herself "We"?
thanks
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Hello
We for a singular in arabic and hebro languaes is used for honor and respect, this is very common
in datc it is even very common in other language
please explain the me why the Queen of England call herself "We"?
thanks
I will have to study this a bit further. Is it also common practice in arabic to refer to oneself by the singular third person pronoun "he" "??" as the Koran often does for God... why swap between "he" and "we" all the time if he wanted it to be clear... it seems to me that some sort of distinction is made, though my analysis of it may have been incorrect.
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Salam,
The information in the Quran cannot be from man. Its impossible.
PeaceCan you elaborate on how its impossible?
Regards,
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Hello
We for a singular in arabic and hebro languaes is used for honor and respect, this is very common
in datc it is even very common in other language
please explain the me why the Queen of England call herself "We"?
thanks
I will have to study this a bit further. Is it also common practice in arabic to refer to oneself by the singular third person pronoun "he" "??" as the Koran often does for God... why swap between "he" and "we" all the time if he wanted it to be clear... it seems to me that some sort of distinction is made, though my analysis of it may have been incorrect.
Peace
don't forgrt that Allah also referred to Himself in the Quran using "I"
peace
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Hello
We for a singular in arabic and hebro languaes is used for honor and respect, this is very common
in datc it is even very common in other language
please explain the me why the Queen of England call herself "We"?
thanks
I will have to study this a bit further. Is it also common practice in arabic to refer to oneself by the singular third person pronoun "he" "??" as the Koran often does for God... why swap between "he" and "we" all the time if he wanted it to be clear... it seems to me that some sort of distinction is made, though my analysis of it may have been incorrect.
Peace
don't forgrt that Allah also referred to Himself in the Quran using "I"
peace
Ok... so we now have three pronouns used - "I", "we", and "he". Now, if the Koran is supposed to be as simple as it claims, why the confusion with using three different pronouns? Are there several narrators? From what I have seen "I" is much rarer than "we" - and it seems to be used predominantly in phrases directed toward the Jews... perhaps the Jews were more used to the "I" form in scripture, and so the language was adapted for the target audience of the ayat? Perhaps the verses with "I" are drawn directly from the Mother of the Book (Umm al-Kitab) whereas the "we" is some sort of narrator, and these phrases are more of the other allegorical kind than those which use "I" or "he"? It seems that the traditional explanation is to just wave your hands and say that all these pronouns refer to the same unity. Has this ever been studied in detail... as in what in the Koran is said by "we", what is said by "he", what is said by "I" and what is said by "Allah" - is there some kind of pattern there? (I'm not saying there necessarily is, but it would be an interesting line of research to figure our if there are multiple narrators - none of which BTW have to be human; they could very well be a mixture of God and angels). It seems to me that even among the Quran only people (and especially among the code-19 ones) there are still certain ground norms which are not questioned in light of what is said in the book, but are rather taken on blind faith.
One thing I can say is that from what I have seen, it really takes a lot of knowledge and intellect to put together how the different elements of the Koran work together - something which is alluded to in 37. It is very easy to misinterpret the Koran based on ones experiences and prior prejudices, and I think that is the greatest danger of the text, and in fact the great danger of any revelation. It is perhaps for this reason that it is encouraged to memorize all of it, so that you can easily make links between the different parts and to reconstruct the order in your head to make sense of it... unfortunately today people memorize it for totally different reasons that have nothing to do with critical analysis.
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what makes you think it is the direct word of God, and not inspired as it states it is?
Say "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches, that you bear witness that along with God are other gods!" Say "I do not bear witness!" Say "He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you set up!"
Say "I do not say to you that I posses God's treasures, nor do I know the future, nor do I say to you that I am an Angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me." Say "Are the blind and the seer the same? Do you not think?"
And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or says "It has been inspired to me," when We did not inspire anything to him; or who says "I will bring down the same as what God has sent down." And if you could only see the wicked at the moments of death when the Angels have their arms opened "Bring yourselves out, today you will be given the severest punishment for what you used to say about God without truth, and you used to be arrogant towards His revelations."
Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
in fact everybody is inspired from God
So We inspired him "Construct the Ship under Our eyes and Our inspiration. Then, when Our command comes and the volcano erupts, then you shall take on the Ship two from every pair, and your family; except for those of them upon whom the word has come. And do not address Me regarding those who have done wrong, for they will be drowned."
And We inspired Moses "Take away My servants, for you will be followed."
So We inspired to Moses "Strike the sea with your staff." So it split into two, each side like a great mountain.
And We inspired to Moses' mother "Suckle him, and when you become fearful for him, then cast him off in the sea, and do not fear nor grieve. We will return him to you and We will make him of the messengers."
Recite what is inspired to thou of the Scripture, and uphold the contact-method; for the contact-method prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.
etc..
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The Magi... you do realize that the word "inspire" here can have several meanings... the normal meaning of seeing something specific or hearing something specific and being to write about it, but also a second meaning of some sort of mental communication. Maybe instead of using the sense of hearing, the phrases are just sort of placed in the mind somehow by otherworldly being (and maybe not, just hypothesizing on possible meanings).
I think we have to realize that there is forcibly some level of human intervention... as it is humans who actually put the words on a piece of paper to make the first physical Koran. I don't think the Koran tells us precisely how it was transmitted and even if different ayats have different origins (yes, I know ultimately that everything, including evil surprisingly enough, has its ultimate source in God, but I'm referring to the more immediate origins here) or if they were all transmitted in the same manner.