how do we define wrong?
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if you do not agree with the buhdism thoeries, speak up. Not everyone in that thread agrees with him. So what if he DOES allready think he knows the answers. Perhaps he is simply looking to challenge his own beliefes. I have seen him seek out answers in a way that coincides with his current beliefes. Or perhaps he is interested in islam but not looking to convert. The only way one can really get into the ways of a new philosophy is to compare it to what you allready know and see what makes sense to you.
this is a place for free minds no? I have not seen him attack others and infact more often than not starts a new thread in an aproproate area rather than hijack another thread.
And so what if he thinks Islam and monotheism is wrong. Is it a prerequisite to join the forum?
Now that I really look at I believe he is like me. He enjoys a good philosophical debate and seeks to find others who can challenge his faith. It can be hard when no one challenges you, to really look deeper into some of the greater questions.
I am not muslim and at first the fact that most here are kept me from joining. I read a bit and hound that it was more than just about religion but about applying beliefe to life and challenging the teachings and making it all more personal an experience. i liked that so i joined. Perhaps I can appreciate enquirer more because i can see cleary where he is coming from and also appreciate how hard it is when no one seems to want to challenge you bcak.
Peace Saw
As well, this could be how he hopes to learn.
Really? He asks questions and all of a sudden finds his answers to his questions. Like is Buddhism better than Traditional Islam and behold yes it is. Is montohiesm wrong? Then he finally lets people know it is what he thinks after he puts out all these arguments that it really is. There is not true learning exerience here for this guy.
I was told when i came here that i did not need to be Muslim to take part in discussions so again, I really don't see the problem.
You do not. Do not confuse the message. I see that you are.
As well, this could be how he hopes to learn. Perhaps he is asking the questions that most confuse him about the religion.
Perhaps you should reread his posts and see how the discussions are geared and how they go.
I've had a discussion with this guy off the forum and he tried to tell me that islam is wrong. He told me that monothiesm is wrong, that the God in the reading is contradictory based on certain criteria .
Joe
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Well now, some philosophies would have us believe that stealing is wrong no matter what, and that there is no harmless lie. Again you are forgetting perspective Wink
Peace Sawtooth
you do have a point there. But maybe that's a wrong definition of 'wrong.'
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peace phoenix. Interesting points in your first post. What i mean with regard to idolatry is that if people are following the quran,why are they seemingly idolising it,(by idolising i mean dogmatically following or reffering to the quran as an infallible authority.) when it states not to?
Peace all.Peace enquirer
what if it is an 'infallible authority?' maybe they know something about the book that you don't (or maybe they see something different). I havn't read the quran that much and i dont have much knowledge about what's in it, but so far i havn't found any real flaw in it.
And it doesn't have to be dogmatically followed to be appreciated for its guidance and wisdom. Even if it isn't perfect, its what we've got and we're using it. If someone sees something wrong with that, then they should present their views. -
Well now, some philosophies would have us believe that stealing is wrong no matter what, and that there is no harmless lie. Again you are forgetting perspective Wink
Peace Sawtooth
you do have a point there. But maybe that's a wrong definition of 'wrong.'
Quite why I think there is no cleaar cut definition for anyting that depends on perspective. Though I do believe even the global comunity can share a few common viewpoints on certain rights and wrongs (though we rarely agree on how to act on that knowledge)
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peace sawtooth and all. I agree that there is no perfect absolute answer,and relativism,context and culture play a part. But the point im making is we must take into consideration other peoples feelings and opinions to make an informed judgement. (ie not be dogmatic with preconcieved ideas).And that harming self or others is generally wrong regardless of what scriptures are intepreted to say.(ie what happened to common-sense,conscience and good-will to all when interpreting scriptures?)
Peace all.And slightly rephrasing your statement
"there is no perfect absolute answer,and CONTEXT play HUGE part."Read the story about Moses and 'mysterious person who has given the higher truth' in the Quran... Neither one of those two individuals have ever read the Quran.
(1860-82)Anyway, God will tell or inspire you when you do 'wrong'..
And yes we do many 'wrong'.. and so does Moses..028.014
When he (Moses) reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him wisdom and knowledge for thus do We reward those who do good.How do Moses receives Wisdom and Knowledge?
By doing something 'wrong'..028.015
And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own kind/sect (arabsheeatihi), and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own kind/sect appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said "This is a work of Evil (Satan) for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"Then he repent.. and seek forgiveness from God
028.016 He prayed "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
028.017 He said "O my Lord! For that Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace on me, never shall I be a help to those who sin!"And then trying clean up his act...
028.018 So he saw the morning in the city, looking about, in a state of fear, when behold, the man who had, the day before, sought his help called aloud for his help (again). Moses said to him "Thou art truly, it is clear, a quarrelsome fellow!"
028.019 Then, when he decided to lay hold of the man who was an enemy to both of them, that man said "O Moses! Is it thy intention to slay me as thou slewest a man yesterday? Thy intention is none other than to become a powerful violent man in the land, and not to be one who sets things right!"
But apparently he fails, and the 'local authority' already keen to do justice in the land (an eye for an eye, a life for a life)
028.020 And there came a man, running, from the furthest end of the City. He said "O Moses! the Chiefs are taking counsel together about thee, to slay thee so get thee away, for I do give thee sincere advice."
And Moses are just too afraid to face the consequences of his own act.. and seek 'another way' to fix his own wrong doing, by becoming a 'fugitive', 'man on the run'.
028.021 He therefore got away therefrom, looking about, in a state of fear. He prayed "O my Lord! save me from people given to wrong-doing."
028.022 Then, when he turned his face towards (the land of) Madyan, he said "I do hope that my Lord will show me the smooth and straight Path."
So how do we receive 'guidance' on what's wrong nor right?
By acting humble and always on guard for "God's Signs" on our everyday life.007.146 Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them.
Salam / Peace
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peace phoenix1 and all. I see no problem in accessing the quran for wisdom and knowledge as long as its not done dogmatically(ie everthing else is incorrect unless it agrees with quran) or inteprated in a way that causes harm to people. Appreciated your polite post. )
Peace all. -
Peace savage carrot,nabi,zenje and all. I would just like to make a few points to you guys(and others). Did you discover islam through the sunni way? If so,after a while did you start to question it and ask questions? Then i assume you progressed to a 'quran only'/'god alone' stance. How did some of the sunnis make you feel when you questioned their dogmas? Did you find it frustrating when they tried to exclude,ridicule,marginalise and attack you personally? And when people ignored your questions and questioned your sincerity and sanity and staus as a believer? I have realised that some people are quite sensitive on these issues so i will try to be more sensitive and post a little less. I hope you dont mind me posting in reply to people who ask me directly.
I do apologise for any bad feelings or crassness and i wish all you guys success and happiness.
Peace all. -
Peace sawtooth and all. Thanks for the balanced analysis of my stance on learning. I do enjoy a good philosophical discussion,and questioning of accepted theories. My motivation is to get all of us to question and progress in understanding(within our own limitations) and so increase happiness and peace.(and reduce suffering). I do want others to challenge my theories and beliefs(so i can possibly gain a better or different understanding) as some of my theories need more verification and/or refutation. Im quite an open minded guy and i seek and learn truth wherever i can, regardless of the persons beliefs. If we didnt question established beliefs we would still believe the earth is flat or slavery is justified. .
I clarify that i definatly do not already know everthing(nobody does) and some of my theories and beliefs are just that--theories.
I have no problem with alternative understandings and beliefs(eg monotheism/quran only etc.) except where these beliefs cause harm to people and/or are used to justify oppressive behaviour.
Peace all. -
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Peace saladin. I think you have misunderstood me. I didnt saying using the criterian(quran) was idolatry. I said if the quran is against idolatry then how come people are thinking the quran is perfect and infallible. (i thought the quran suggested only 'god' was perfect and infallible?). Isnt this two gods?
peace all. -
I think you have misunderstood me. I didnt saying using the criterian(quran) was idolatry. I said if the quran is against idolatry then how come people are thinking the quran is perfect and infallible. (i thought the quran suggested only 'god' was perfect and infallible?). Isnt this two gods?
peace.
God is perfect and infallible . so his word is also perfect and infallible . u dont expect God to make mistakes in His word , since He and infallible ? -
Peace saladin. So do you expect god to make mistakes in his creation? Is his creation perfect and infallible too?
Peace all. -
Peace saladin. So do you expect god to make mistakes in his creation? Is his creation perfect and infallible too?
Peace all.salam.
everything is just as it is supposed to be . there is difference b/w word of God and creation of God . the error free word of God is there to guide us creations . the quran,the criterion is supposed to be error free . -
Peace saladin. So its only god and his words that are perfect? Isnt that two gods then?
Peace. -
peace
i dont think the quran is the word of God. its the word of man describing God and its creation. And God's creation is good and evil. But that's for a reason.
Instead of putting our complete faith only in the quran we should turn to God's creation (nature) for the truth. But the quran does make sense when tested with the creation.