Correct Translation of 5:38-Please?

JHamza

I was wondering if now that you have chosen a meaning/intent of God you will help to implement that punishment or any other action, not only believing that meaning. Feel free to not answer the question, of course.

Now if it doesnt mean that and its just a wrong translation then fine give me proof that it means something different
I don't know the meaning.

Peace Sister Elena,
Hmm well since I am not the Law,No I would not be inclined to enforce it personally,I believe that should be left to the right officials,but only after the theft is proven as fact but if the person is truly remorseful and repents then they should be forgiven..But I do think that if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done.
If I am proven wrong in my belief I WILL submit to the truth.

When you find out the TRUE Meaning,let me know..

Peace

Fahad1

Hmm well since I am not the Law,No I would not be inclined to enforce it personally,I believe that should be left to the right officials,but only after the theft is proven as fact but if the person is truly remorseful and repents then they should be forgiven..But I do think that if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done.

exactly .
salam.

Elena

Peace JHamza

I do think that if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done.
What are those guidelines?

unknownuser

well, if they speak arabic then I'm sure they will admit that it means literally to cut off the hand, and if you look at my first comment here you will see that I used the word lietrally, therefore to answer your question, Why they did that?, the answer is simply they didn't translate it literally
that is what is going on
regards

And how do you translate it?

Regards,

I take most of the Quran literally, this way I will certainly avoide conjectures

I will translate it like this, to cut off the hand

regards

el-Aziz

I take most of the Quran literally, this way I will certainly avoide conjectures

I will translate it like this, to cut off the hand

regards

By taking languages literally, one loses a great deal of its actual meaning and this applies to all languages.

Why is it that you take the Koranic arabic for an exception?
I say you rather misunderstand even more as you tend to translate literally.

stillearning

salaam all

Quote
538
Khalifa
The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
Yusuf Ali
As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by way of example, from God, for their crime and God is Exalted in power.
Pickthal
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Shakir
And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Sher Ali
And as for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut of their hands in retribution of their offence as an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
"Progressive Muslims"
The male thief, and the female thief, you shall confiscate their belongings as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

As someone who knowa 0 arabic the above is very confusing. Surely the words for cut, mark and confiscate must be very different. If it is the case(big assumption on my part) then surely the translation must reflect the literal translation and not the one which sounds comfortable in the 21st century. Some input from arabic speakers who disagree with Ahmed would be helpful. Although so far no one has given any logical explanation for mark or confiscate.
regards

Wakas

Although so far no one has given any logical explanation for mark or confiscate.

Are you sure?

This gets repeated a lot, but here it is again please use the search function at the top.

To Layth/Zenje cant we have this in big/clear writing somewhere on the forum page?

unknownuser

well, if they speak arabic then I'm sure they will admit that it means literally to cut off the hand, and if you look at my first comment here you will see that I used the word lietrally, therefore to answer your question, Why they did that?, the answer is simply they didn't translate it literally
that is what is going on
regards

And how do you translate it?

Regards,

I take most of the Quran literally, this way I will certainly avoide conjectures

I will translate it like this, to cut off the hand

regards

So you can go from Cut Off to Confiscate. So the CLEAR ARABIC is quite flexible isn't it? wink

I wonder if you can go in the Reverse? Like take Confiscate and turn into Cut off?

Regards,

JHamza

Peace JHamza

I do think that if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done.
What are those guidelines?

Peace Elena,
Im no authority,so some one with better knowledge of the Quranic views of handling these things would be better in answering this..But it would have to be taken from Quran...

JHamza

Arabic words that are translated as Hand
Now which is the one that is translated hands in the verse
The thief, male or female, you shall cut off their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

a share in an action; active support
, , , , ,
If its the first ones then it would be telling us to share in the action of their punishment or show active support of their theivery or punishment.

a signature; signing

I dont see how its this.

control , management , custody
, , ,
Dont see it being this one either..Is it?

the end part of the human arm beyond the wrist , including the fingers and thumb
,
Hands mean hands..

Cut

cut adjective severed; split; broken
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

cut noun act of cutting , stroke with a sowrd , etc; result of such a stroke; opening made by a knife , etc
, ,

cut verb to make an opening , incision; separate; remove from something larger; divide or separate into two
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

If the word thats been translated as cut off comes from the adj,then it means severed,split or broken..not mark or confiscate.
If it comes from the noun or verb then it means to cut open,or slice..or could mean to cut into or remove it completely.

Elena

Peace

Peace JHamza

I do think that if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done.
What are those guidelines?

Peace Elena,
Im no authority,so some one with better knowledge of the Quranic views of handling these things would be better in answering this..But it would have to be taken from Quran...

I think the quran doesn't give any guideline or instructions about how that punishment has to be done, if after the second time the thief steals as you say, or the first time or the third, if one hand, in the two hands, if above or below ops the wrist, etc. If there are no guidelines, will you continue thinking "if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done"?

Elena

Peace AhmedBahgat

I will translate it like this, to cut off the hand

in December, in another thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4628&highlight=thief you were against 'cut off' as the correct translation. What made you to change your mind?

JHamza

Peace

I think the quran doesn't give any guideline or instructions about how that punishment has to be done, if after the second time the thief steals as you say, or the first time or the third, if one hand, in the two hands, if above or below oops the wrist, etc. If there are no guidelines, will you continue thinking "if they commit theft a second time then the law should be inforced after the proper guidelines are done"?

Peace Elena,
Well I am not aware of every surah at the time that discuss' the exact guidelines like I mentioned above...but the next verse says

538But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, God turneth to him in forgiveness; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

So there is atleast one time we should forgive the crime of theft if the theif seems to be repentent,but obviously if the theif is warned of the punishment,and they go out a steal again then they were not truly repentent....

Now if the word for hand was ,
the end part of the human arm beyond the wrist , including the fingers and thumb,then thats what it means..
And if the word in 538 is the verb form of the word cut then it means
verb to make an opening , incision; separate; remove from something larger; divide or separate into two.
Which could mean to make an incision,and seperate/remove it from the arm...

If it comes from the adjective then it means severed; split; broken...severed means almost all the way off..not sure how this process would be done..

If its the noun then it meansact of cutting , stroke with a sowrd , etc; result of such a stroke; opening made by a knife , etc...therefore it would be only a cut on the hands,not a literal cutting off of the hand..
Thats what I m trying to find out is which form is the word for cut in the Arabic..

I will stand by the correct form and meaning,no matter what my cultural society accepts or what I think it should mean..

True Quran Meaning,and Submission to the Will of GOD.

unknownuser

well, if they speak arabic then I'm sure they will admit that it means literally to cut off the hand, and if you look at my first comment here you will see that I used the word lietrally, therefore to answer your question, Why they did that?, the answer is simply they didn't translate it literally
that is what is going on
regards

And how do you translate it?

Regards,

I take most of the Quran literally, this way I will certainly avoide conjectures

I will translate it like this, to cut off the hand

regards

So you can go from Cut Off to Confiscate. So the CLEAR ARABIC is quite flexible isn't it? wink

I wonder if you can go in the Reverse? Like take Confiscate and turn into Cut off?

Regards,

your comment really has no merit whatsoever because

I'm not a religious law maker
neither I'm a religious law enforcer
for me regardless of the punishment, theft is no no, so I havenothing to worry about

now regarding my view about 538, I believeI stated it before many times that I lean to believe Joe explanation, I never settelled this matter though as I don't have time to find all the verses that used the word cut and the Yad then try to work it out however because of the 3 points above, it has least priority for me to be honest,

my reply to the post about the exact translation to the arabic words is 100% accurate, the arabic words clearly means to cut off the hand, however 539 raise a very important question, which I beleive if it is not there then 538 100% means to cut off the hands, but with 539 in place I'm open for Joe understanding but I will not take it unless I do my home work myself not done by anyone

if 539 causes 538 to mean cutting off power and resources then I have to prove it myself but I never managed to find the time to do it as I do other more important researches in the Quran

regards

unknownuser

Peace AhmedBahgat

I will translate it like this, to cut off the hand

in December, in another thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4628&highlight=thief you were against 'cut off' as the correct translation. What made you to change your mind?

Peace elena

I didn't change my mind, please read my comment to LT

btw elena, I didn't see your comment before I wrote my reply to LT

thanks

JHamza

Cutting Off The Hands of Theives

By Muhammad Abdul Malek

The last few years have seen the introduction of "Islamic Law" (Shariah or Shariat) in some
countries which call themselves Islamic States. One law in particular, quite often publicised in the
West as barbarous, is the cutting of a hand for stealing. The so called Islamic States which carry out
these sentences do it for various political reasons, but primarily to create fear and to hold on to
power. Unfortunately they go unquestioned, simply because most people have no knowledge of the
Qur'anic injunctions regarding these issues.

According to the Qur'an, any punishment should fit the crime,

If we are to follow the Qur'anic guidance that the punishment should fit the crime then we cannot cut
the hand of a thief as the wealth stolen is not the same as the sacrifice of one's hand. Therefore we
have to look very carefully at the verses which deal with this issue. The Law regarding this
punishment is given in verses (538, 39).

From verse 38 the word "Yad" is translated in its literal
sense as 'hand'. However besides 'hand' the word "Yad" also means strength of hands, power,
property, wealth, blessings, obligation, support etc.
Many Arabic words contain such multiple
meanings and it is important to note that the appropriate meaning will always depend on the context
in which it is being used.

Here the context is stealing i.e. of wealth, and therefore the punishment to fit the crime should be wealth for wealth and not 'hand for wealth'.

Hence the thief should be given a punishment where he is made to give up his wealth to make good the loss of the person he has robbed. Hence the following translation of the verse, as given by the late Ahmed Ali Khan Jullundri in his translation and commentary of the Qur'an, is accurate

On the other hand if verse (53 is translated literally to mean cutting of hand, then verse (539) cannot be sustained logically. It would be ridiculous to suggest that Allah turns to him in forgiveness if the thief repents after the cutting of his hand! What is there to forgive after he has paid such a heavy penalty? But if he returns the stolen goods and repents and reforms then he would be forgiven. Deserving the chance he should be given the chance, and this automatically rules out any question of cutting of hand.

In fact, in a truly Islamic State the question of cutting of a hand would not arise at all. There will be
social justice and the State will have to act as a trustee for the entire population. Hunger, injustice and poverty would be eliminated as the wealth would be used for the benefit of the people.

Further, the Qur'an states quite clearly that any such crime must be forgiven if there are mitigating circumstances i.e. poverty, hunger etc.

http//www.geocities.com/Athens/4796/cuttoff.htm

Guess my opinion of what the context really means,is now answered..because as is highlighted in red states
From verse 38 the word "Yad" is translated in its literal
sense as 'hand'. However besides 'hand' the word "Yad" also means strength of hands, power,
property, wealth, blessings, obligation, support etc.
And
Here the context is stealing i.e. of wealth, and therefore the punishment to fit the crime should be wealth for wealth and not 'hand for wealth'.

My previous belief was incorrect,and as I have stated before,If I am proven wrong I have Know qualms to submitting to the Truth.

The thief, male or female, you shall take their property as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

Peace