How Did it Come to This? (Part 2)
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Peace ayman,
I'm looking for a few clarifications of your theory.
So are there jinn/thoughts purely human creation, or can they exist outside of humans... that is to say are they intrinsically linked to humanity, or are they some sort of thoughtform or energyform that can exist independently of humans. If they were created before us, does it not indicate some sort of outside influence, if not of beings, but of some other sort of entity?
Second, as far as angels/controllers, I've been wondering if they have some kinds of parallels to for example what today are called "gods" for the Hindus and ancient Egyptians, whereby these angels/controllers have control over a specific realm of reality. Now, some have chosen to worship such entities as if they were God's partners (hence the appelation "gods"), but besides the issue of nomenclature and worshipability, do we not have very similar concepts here? What I mean is that could it be that the "gods" that the ancient Egyptians worshiped were in reality angles/controllers, and the mistake/idolatry of the ancient Egyptians (often mentioned in the Qur'an) was to assume that because of their powers they were gods worthy of worship instead of just servants created by the One God, and therefore not worthy of worship?
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Peace Ayman, Idolfree
If you have some time, can you try to refute my understanding of jinn, as exposed here ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63992#63992Thanks
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Good response to Tanveer.
Let me respond to your post to me
Ayman
"Thoughts" is a more encompassing term than imagination. Remember that The God taught the human all the names and he was able to answer questions (which involves thinking) before the controllers (including the one from the "jinn"/imagination) were asked to obey him. So the human already had knowledge and the ability to think to answer questions BEFORE the fantasy was to obey him. It is those thoughts that we should use to control the fantasy and make it obey us so we can both serve The God.Yes, I agree that it is the verbal thoughts that direct the images. In fact it is our BELIEFS (thought + energy) that influence our images. If we sit back and reflect we will notice that we constantly replay scenarios(images and thoughts) in our heads of how we expect certain life issues to unfold according to our BELIEFS.
I understand "Adam" to be the verbal thought faculty, thats how "he" is able to think and to gain information and descriptions(not visual). It was the controllers who dealt with the imagery.
231- And He taught Adam the descriptions, all of them, then He displayed/exhibited/showed them on the controllers, so He said "Inform Me with (the) descriptions (of) those, if you were truthful."
One thing to reflect upon is that the verbal thinking is a segregative faculty, while imagination(visual thought) is a congregative faculty. So it appears that the job of the controllers might be to unify the thoughts into the "whole picture" (oneness). Just a thought.
Anyway, I started this response to talk about my usage of "thoughts", but I just started drifting, so I will stop here until I get everything together.
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Salaamun alaikum brother Ayman,
Thought provoking post.
Maybe the jinn are beings that have the ability to create fantasies in human thought ? So then the definition of jinn would be "a being made of a form of energy that is hidden to the common human physical senses and has the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts".
In the case of Solomon, the jinn made statues and pots that he desired. Here wouldn't desire be the fantasy ?
In many signs jinn and humans are mentioned in the same context making it appear that they are both beings but separate from each other. If jinn was fantasy then the sign should have read "jinn of ins" rather than "jinn and ins".
My HYPOTHESIS (conjecture) is that jinn are beings that could have as well been created from some form of energy and they exist in a different dimension and they have the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts. They may also have the ability to materialize in human shape thereby causing the confusion that jinn are also humans who are leaders or of a fiery nature. All of this is theoretically and scientifically possible.
If they are indeed made from energy and have electromagnetic nature (fantasies or beings) then maybe one day humans might be able to create devices able to detect those jinn ??
Just some thoughts polluted by fantasies or maybe the jinn are creating those fantasies in my thoughts ?? !!
If jinn are indeed "beings" that create fantasies in human thoughts then what we learn from that is to be careful of them by being AWARE of such beings and purge our thoughts of the fantasies they create by aligning our thoughts with Allah's revelations.
Peace,
Tanveer
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tanveermd,
Though I am in agreement with you in principle, there is still the question of free will. It is my understanding that the Qur'an indicates that the jinn have free will, and the ability to choose to be good or bad. Therefore, is not some kind of intelligence required?
As for seeing jinn, I think part of it has to be with them making themselves known using the same mechanisms they use to transfer fantasies and such, but I think it is also to objectively perceive them. I think perhaps certain mediums and psychics may be able to do so (then there are a bunch of fakes, outnumbering the real ones and giving them all a bad name), but science just hasn't become advanced enough to test it objectively - parapsychology is the name for the study of such phenomena, but as of yet they haven't been able to conduct objectively rigorous experiments - it should however be added that the scientific evidence, though not conclusive, points to the existence of the supernatural, and no one has been able to prove it doesn't exist. Just because we can't prove the existence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Peace Magi,
this is an old divination trick used by magicians and "prophets" alike throughout the world. If you pull very fast in each end of certain snakes they become stiff. Their muscles lock up, so they become like a staff. The trick then is to throw the snake to the ground so it start to move again. LO and behold, magick...well not really, but back in the days everybody brought it!.
I doubt that this is what happened in 2710. It doesn't seem logical that Moses played a trick on himself by holding a snake and then pulling it fast at each end to make it stiff and then threw it and when it started to move he got scared.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta
I'm looking for a few clarifications of your theory.
So are there jinn/thoughts purely human creation, or can they exist outside of humans... that is to say are they intrinsically linked to humanity, or are they some sort of thoughtform or energyform that can exist independently of humans. If they were created before us, does it not indicate some sort of outside influence, if not of beings, but of some other sort of entity?
The fantasy is made of energy and energy was created before humans and even before matter itself. There is much that we don't understand yet. For example, what was their function before the human? However, for the purpose of our salvation, I think the information that we are given is all we need.
Second, as far as angels/controllers, I've been wondering if they have some kinds of parallels to for example what today are called "gods" for the Hindus and ancient Egyptians, whereby these angels/controllers have control over a specific realm of reality. Now, some have chosen to worship such entities as if they were God's partners (hence the appelation "gods"), but besides the issue of nomenclature and worshipability, do we not have very similar concepts here? What I mean is that could it be that the "gods" that the ancient Egyptians worshiped were in reality angles/controllers, and the mistake/idolatry of the ancient Egyptians (often mentioned in the Qur'an) was to assume that because of their powers they were gods worthy of worship instead of just servants created by the One God, and therefore not worthy of worship?
You are right that people take those gods as controllers. For example, people took Allat as a controller of fertility. However, since those gods didn't actually control anything and have absolutely no power but were simply imagined to be so, they are actually fantasies/"jinn" (see 3440-41).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Kyle,
Yes, I agree that it is the verbal thoughts that direct the images. In fact it is our BELIEFS (thought + energy) that influence our images. If we sit back and reflect we will notice that we constantly replay scenarios(images and thoughts) in our heads of how we expect certain life issues to unfold according to our BELIEFS.
I understand "Adam" to be the verbal thought faculty, thats how "he" is able to think and to gain information and descriptions(not visual). It was the controllers who dealt with the imagery.
231- And He taught Adam the descriptions, all of them, then He displayed/exhibited/showed them on the controllers, so He said "Inform Me with (the) descriptions (of) those, if you were truthful."
One thing to reflect upon is that the verbal thinking is a segregative faculty, while imagination(visual thought) is a congregative faculty. So it appears that the job of the controllers might be to unify the thoughts into the "whole picture" (oneness). Just a thought.
Anyway, I started this response to talk about my usage of "thoughts", but I just started drifting, so I will stop here until I get everything together.
I assume you mean the faculty of "communication" as a the verbal faculty. The controllers were able to communicate and also "segregate" something as a bad deed (needlessly spilling blood - see 230). They were also able to "segregate" thoughts into ones that they hide and others that they revealed (233).
Also, what is a visual faculty anyway? It is just a way to "realize" or "understand". Thus, the following passage comes to mind
022.046
YUSUFALI Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts.
PICKTHAL Have they not travelled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind.
SHAKIR Have they not travelled in the land so that they should have hearts with which to understand, or ears with which to hear? For surely it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are in the breasts.
KHALIFA Did they not roam the earth, then use their minds to understand, and use their ears to hear? Indeed, the real blindness is not the blindness of the eyes, but the blindness of the hearts inside the chests.I guess one thing that I learned is to not follow a certain philosophy too strictly. Philosophy is just an imperfect man made approximation of how we view things at a certain point of time. If anything, the controllers are the ones who would have the ability to segregate or differentiate in order to "control" anything.
I am just thinking out loud and would appreciate your feedback.
Thanks and peace,
Ayman
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Peace Tanveermd,
Thought provoking post.
Maybe the jinn are beings that have the ability to create fantasies in human thought ? So then the definition of jinn would be "a being made of a form of energy that is hidden to the common human physical senses and has the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts".
For all intents and purposes they can be considered equivalent to "fantasy".
In the case of Solomon, the jinn made statues and pots that he desired. Here wouldn't desire be the fantasy ?
The exact word used in the passage in Chapter 34 is "yashaa" (will) not "yashtahi" (desire). The difference can be seen even in English when we hear someone having "strong will" in contrast to "strong desire".
In many signs jinn and humans are mentioned in the same context making it appear that they are both beings but separate from each other. If jinn was fantasy then the sign should have read "jinn of ins" rather than "jinn and ins".
The "jinn" is indeed described as the "qarin" OF "ins".
My HYPOTHESIS (conjecture) is that jinn are beings that could have as well been created from some form of energy and they exist in a different dimension and they have the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts. They may also have the ability to materialize in human shape thereby causing the confusion that jinn are also humans who are leaders or of a fiery nature. All of this is theoretically and scientifically possible.
If they are indeed made from energy and have electromagnetic nature (fantasies or beings) then maybe one day humans might be able to create devices able to detect those jinn ??
Just some thoughts polluted by fantasies or maybe the jinn are creating those fantasies in my thoughts ?? !!
If jinn are indeed "beings" that create fantasies in human thoughts then what we learn from that is to be careful of them by being AWARE of such beings and purge our thoughts of the fantasies they create by aligning our thoughts with Allah's revelations.
As you say above, how we treat them is to purge our thoughts of the bad fantasies ("shayateen"). So regardless of any hypothesis, for all intents and purposes "jinn" can be considered equivalent to "fantasy". When we purge the exceeding in rebellion fantasies, we automatically purge the "shayateen al-jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta
Though I am in agreement with you in principle, there is still the question of free will. It is my understanding that the Qur'an indicates that the jinn have free will, and the ability to choose to be good or bad. Therefore, is not some kind of intelligence required?
Everything in the heavens and the earth has freedom of choice, including mountains (3372). So even molecules and electrons have the ability to choose. To us most things seem to lack this ability because they always make the right choice.
As for seeing jinn, I think part of it has to be with them making themselves known using the same mechanisms they use to transfer fantasies and such, but I think it is also to objectively perceive them. I think perhaps certain mediums and psychics may be able to do so (then there are a bunch of fakes, outnumbering the real ones and giving them all a bad name), but science just hasn't become advanced enough to test it objectively - parapsychology is the name for the study of such phenomena, but as of yet they haven't been able to conduct objectively rigorous experiments - it should however be added that the scientific evidence, though not conclusive, points to the existence of the supernatural, and no one has been able to prove it doesn't exist. Just because we can't prove the existence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
What is seeing? Can a physically blind man not see the "jinn"/fantasy? Isn't the real seeing more like "understanding"? I now understand the "jinn" and see how they influence us. This is seeing. As for physically seeing them, you can only see the realization of the "jinn"/fantasies. You see it everyday whenever you see something that someone imagined and then made in the physical world.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman, all
You put nicely the link between, jinn, ja/n, jinna and majnoon in the light of the Reading, thanks for the opening eyes shock
Keep good works.
My two cents
One can seek refuge in the Lord from the evil of alwaswas alkhannasi (1144).
Muhammad Ali's translation
114?4. From the evil of the whisperings of
the slinking (devil),
Min sharri alwaswasi al khannasi (a)a The word khannas is derived from khanasa, meaning he held back or hung back, and also he hid himself (LL), and al-khannas is the devil (aljinn), because he retires or shrinks or hides himself (LL).
From alwaswas, there is the verb 'waswasa'. In the Reading, this verb is mainly used for shaytan/Iblis/jinn (720, 20120), nafs (5016) and alwaswas alkhannasi (1144-5),
From the verses above, one can deduce that shaytan-jinn is intrinseque to our nafs, he acts through our hearts. The sequence beteween 1145 and 1146 could imply that the jinn is the hidden side of mankind.
Shaytan/jinn is described as the companion for the rebellious ones. Shaytan leads to spend the money to show-off to the people (43, invent for the Lord sons and daughters (6100), repel away from remembering God and from salat (591), promises poverty and orders to evil (226, lurks in ambush in the Straight Path (716-17 ).
alnnajwa/ conspiracy is from shaytan (5810)
covert actions is from shaytan (7200-201)
intoxicants and games are the work of shaytan (591)
to kill without justice is the work of shaytan (2815)When Adam and his mate ate from the tree, this is their desire to become controllers or immortal which lead them to disobey the God (720, 20120).
When Iblis refused to be with those who submitted to mankind, then it is upon us to make his progeny obedient to us.
Peace
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Peace be upon you...
Peace be upon you Tanveer,
A fantasy is clearly a thought and not a being.
Says who? D I have come to learn and VERIFY that our thoughts are not part of "us". They work independent of "us", although we have the power to take control of them. Sometmes they come to us "out of the blue". If you sit back and just watch your thoughts, you will verify just like I did that we do not really orchestrate the thoughts that come into your sphere of awareness. Regarding the term "being", all of creation is but a manifestation of the ONE being, the SUPREME being. So thoughts are not who we are, so they are seperate from what we call "I".
Brilliant observation!
Best wishes
Zlatan
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Peace be with you Ayman,
First, let me commend you on the excellent articles and thank you for sharing your learning and research with others.
As far as your rendering of "Jinn", I agree with the Concept you have put forth. I think the stumbling block is the word Fantasy and/or Imagination.
I think a more accurate wording would run along the lines of "One's Dark-Side or One's Darker Half". (Like it or not, everyone has a Dark-Side).
May I suggest the term Alter Ego? I went back and read part 2 of your article and subsituted Alter Ego and Hidden-Self in place of Fantasies. It really seems to fit to me.
For me salat is a two pronged thing - physical and non-physical. The good thing with the small details of the quran regarding what it is, is that it can fluctuate between the two as the needs of the individual dictate. The best point would be to find the middle road - the median point of the two, and this cannot be prescribed because it depends upon the individual. Many people argue here that it cannot be physical. I disagree with the phrase 'cannot', as this implies that the pinnacle of understanding regarding this has been achieved for all humanity - uncertainty is the best policy. It is certainty that leads to sects forming.
BEAUTIFUL!!
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace damon and all. Yes,what darcus wrote was beautiful. ) The point you made about aymans concept being right and the stumbling block being the words used is interesting. If we combine darcus' comment with yours,we could say the concept(which is probably the most important thing.) is agreed upon,but the detail/methodology/words may be different. If we could stick to this kind of tolerance then we might not have the continous back and forth 'haggling' on salat,hajj,code 19,hadith etc,etc.. The details sometimes work different(or not at all.) for different people,the true concepts can work for everyone. Salat is meant to keep away from bad deeds(true concept?),how you do it can be variable with the individual and the context.(different methods and details.)
peace all. -
Peace sister Marie,
It is good to hear from you.
You put nicely the link between, jinn, ja/n, jinna and majnoon in the light of the Reading, thanks for the opening eyes shock
Keep good works.
My two cents
One can seek refuge in the Lord from the evil of alwaswas alkhannasi (1144).
Muhammad Ali's translation
114?4. From the evil of the whisperings of
the slinking (devil),
Min sharri alwaswasi al khannasi (a)a The word khannas is derived from khanasa, meaning he held back or hung back, and also he hid himself (LL), and al-khannas is the devil (aljinn), because he retires or shrinks or hides himself (LL).
From alwaswas, there is the verb 'waswasa'. In the Reading, this verb is mainly used for shaytan/Iblis/jinn (720, 20120), nafs (5016) and alwaswas alkhannasi (1144-5),
From the verses above, one can deduce that shaytan-jinn is intrinseque to our nafs, he acts through our hearts. The sequence beteween 1145 and 1146 could imply that the jinn is the hidden side of mankind.
Thank you sister for the excellent observation. I agree.
Shaytan/jinn is described as the companion for the rebellious ones. Shaytan leads to spend the money to show-off to the people (43, invent for the Lord sons and daughters (6100), repel away from remembering God and from salat (591), promises poverty and orders to evil (226, lurks in ambush in the Straight Path (716-17 ).
alnnajwa/ conspiracy is from shaytan (5810)
covert actions is from shaytan (7200-201)
intoxicants and games are the work of shaytan (591)
to kill without justice is the work of shaytan (2815)When Adam and his mate ate from the tree, this is their desire to become controllers or immortal which lead them to disobey the God (720, 20120).
When Iblis refused to be with those who submitted to mankind, then it is upon us to make his progeny obedient to us.
There is so much progress in our understanding that is enabled by a better understanding of what "jinn" means. I can see that you have already started to put some of the other pieces together.
Lately, I have been thinking about some of the concepts in the great reading, for example, the extensive use of allegories. Now, allegories could be kind of considered as talking to our "imagination/fantasy". We are warned in 37 not to follow the allegorical signs in the great reading in the same way that we are told not to follow the fantasy (3029). We are also told in 37 about the judging signs. In a way, the judging signs is what we use to control the allegorical ones. It is as if the great reading mirrors us because we use our judgment to control our fantasy.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Zlatan,
Says who? D I have come to learn and VERIFY that our thoughts are not part of "us". They work independent of "us", although we have the power to take control of them. Sometmes they come to us "out of the blue". If you sit back and just watch your thoughts, you will verify just like I did that we do not really orchestrate the thoughts that come into your sphere of awareness. Regarding the term "being", all of creation is but a manifestation of the ONE being, the SUPREME being. So thoughts are not who we are, so they are seperate from what we call "I".
Brilliant observation!
It is great to see you back on the forum. )
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Damon,
First, let me commend you on the excellent articles and thank you for sharing your learning and research with others.
As far as your rendering of "Jinn", I agree with the Concept you have put forth. I think the stumbling block is the word Fantasy and/or Imagination.
I think a more accurate wording would run along the lines of "One's Dark-Side or One's Darker Half". (Like it or not, everyone has a Dark-Side).
May I suggest the term Alter Ego? I went back and read part 2 of your article and subsituted Alter Ego and Hidden-Self in place of Fantasies. It really seems to fit to me.
Thank you for your kindness brother. Whatever good is from The God so I don't deserve credit but I do accept credit for any mistakes. )
I agree with you and what you are saying about "dark side" or "alter ego" is very much in line with what I am saying. If we think about what drives our "dark-side" or "alter ego", you will find that it is our fantasy. If we have exceeding in rebellion fantasies then our "alter ego" or "dark side" will also be exceeding in rebellion.
All the understandings presented here are not that far apart.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Enquirer,
Peace damon and all. Yes,what darcus wrote was beautiful. ) The point you made about aymans concept being right and the stumbling block being the words used is interesting. If we combine darcus' comment with yours,we could say the concept(which is probably the most important thing.) is agreed upon,but the detail/methodology/words may be different. If we could stick to this kind of tolerance then we might not have the continous back and forth 'haggling' on salat,hajj,code 19,hadith etc,etc.. The details sometimes work different(or not at all.) for different people,the true concepts can work for everyone. Salat is meant to keep away from bad deeds(true concept?),how you do it can be variable with the individual and the context.(different methods and details.)
I agree. We should focus on the purpose as opposed to the form. Whatever method best accomplishes the purpose is the one we should use.
Take "salat" for example, it is whatever works best to accomplish the purpose of reminding us of The God and keep us away from bad deeds.
Same thing with "hajj". It is whatever works best for any and all people (2227) to assemble in safety to witness benefits and remember The God (222 at a place where no partners are setup with The God (2226).
Same thing with Code 19. We are clearly told in 7431 that the count of the guardians of hell is nothing except an affliction/trial for the unappreciative. This is its ONLY purpose. Everything else is a result of it being an affliction/trial for the unappreciative not a result of it directly.
Same thing with "hadith"/sayings. We shouldn't have faith in any "hadith" after The God and His signs (456). Thus, all "hadith"/sayings should be equally evaluated. There should be no special treatment for my "hadith"/saying or that of Bukhari or that alleged to be of the prophet.
Peace,
Ayman
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This thread is the most bizzare thing that I have ever come across.
The play on words is just .... fantastic.The ironic thing here is that you are indulging your own fantasies of what you want your
God to say to you, whilst describing it at the same time.Are you guys bored, is that it? Looking for new ways to amuse yourselves.
Jinns were a pretty simple concept to grasp until you guys muddelled it all up.
So this Iblis chap was God's fanatasy. He made up the whole thing. Then this fantasy spoke to God asking
for respite. Of course Solomon was even more crazy because his fantasies moved physical objects.Also, I can see why Muhammed was called majnoon, he fantasized a group of jinns listening to him, and later these
fantasies went back to other fanatasies and spoke to them, warning them. Actually they had quite a long chat.Here's a question for you. If no one sees two fantasies talking, do they make a sound?
But sincerely I do say this, why do you confuse issues and enjoy debating on them. Aren't you the ones
seeking refuge with your fanatises.peace.