Pharoah = Ramsees II
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Peace All,
My wife and I have made a trip to the Egyptian museum to have a look at all the mummies.
What I wanted to note was that the Pharoah mentioned in the Quran (with Moses) is "Ramses II" and if anyone is visiting Egypt you should keep this in mind.
Ramses II died at an old age and his white hair can be seen on the mummified head while the other dead Pharoah's it is very difficult to tell their age. Also, Ramses II ruled for the longest time in Egypt (67 years) which tallies with the story of Moses being found by Pharoah as a baby and then confronting that same Pharoah when he was a full grown man (possibly over 40).
Photo of Ramses II mummy
Ramses II is also noted to be the last Pharoah before Egypt bean to decline and was slowly invaded by her neighbors...Finally, Ramses II contributed to the largest number of buildings and temples in Egypt which may be the reason he is called in the Quran "Firoun Thul Awtad" (Pharoah of the wooden beams).
Layth
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Peace all,
I have a question, according to the Quran, didn't God drown the pharoh and his people? Then how come his body was mumified if the water ate it?
(by ate I mean, it was drowned...) -
Salam Layth, all
don
t you think that the soul of the dead (Pharaoh or not) cant find peace while these bodies are shown to hundreds of people daily?I
m not so sure about it and this is why I didnt enter the mummys room when I visited the egyptian museum twice. Although I was curious like shock I said to myself that I dont like the way these deads are presented to us and that I don`t want to bother them.Couple of years ago they were removed and could not be seen by the visitors for a while for the same reason. (I think it was Mubarak himself who decided so...?)
Salam
Warda -
Peace,
don
t you think that the soul of the dead (Pharaoh or not) cant find peace while these bodies are shown to hundreds of people daily?Perhaps that's God's plan.....to not give peace to those who abused God's laws in this world and denied peace to the weak. Just my opinion, but I still have second thoughts if the image pictured there is really the body of the pharoh mentioned in the Quran. Its amazing though that the mumification forumla those Egyptians developed in their times with very little scientific knowledge were able to wrap a body so that it could be displayed in the 21st century without rotting.
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
those Egyptians developed in their times with very little scientific knowledge were able to wrap a body so that it could be displayed in the 21st century without rotting.
Who says they had very little scientific knowledge? Thier artifacts prove opposite to that. It is only "White Supremecy" that wants to deny the credit of the Africans of Kemet(ancient Egypt). The SCIENCE of Kemet is still used today as well as the symbolisms. The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically. The truth is that the greeks learned from the people of Kemet.
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The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically.
I am not a "white supremacist " if that's what's being implied here. As a matter of fact it were my white teachers who told us how much these Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Turks, etc accomplished during their era. My comment was meant to say that they weren't advanced in terms of inventing an X-Ray machine, a dialysis machine etc...not to say they were stupid. To be an ace when it comes to scientific knowledge one would need scientific equipment to some extent such as a microscope; if these people did not even have that...it was fascinating how they developed so much. That's what I meant to say while giving the ancient people a comment not a bad remark.
Racism is racism. If you bad-mouth black people its racisim. If you bad-mouth Asians, its racism. If you bad-mouth white people its STILL racism. Putting one group down without any basis but bias is not something I do.
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Peaaaaace,
Well I just finished watching a show on the discovery channel called Ramses Wrath of God or Wrath of man... it was alright, I felt it had a lot of guessing going on, and not many facts. The show mainly dealt with the biblical account of Pharoah's first son being killed by God, (you know the whole ten plague story), I'm pretty sure I haven't read about this first born son being killed in the Quran. Anyway, the show said that it probably wasnt Ramses the Second who followed Moses into the Sea. They based this on the fact that his skeletal remains show severe arthritis and a lot of other stuff that would stop him from being able to pursue moses on a chariot (plus he was 67 years old), and no signs of drowning. They also claimed that it was probably his first born son (new archaelogical find of supposed remains of Ramses the Seconds first born son is what the show talked about) who followed Moses into the Sea (Sea of Reeds rather than the Red Sea), and then was ultimately killed (the archaelogical evidence looks like he was struck on the head, leading to his death). Another interesting claim that they made was that Pharaoh Akhenaton who ruled a little while before Ramses was the founder of monotheism; supposedly though he worshipped the Sun God Ra, but that was his only God. When I heard this I thought about Joseph probably introducing this belief system to him or something like that. The main point I wanted to deal with is the fact that Ramses the 2nd doesnt look like the Pharoah who followed Moses into the sea, due to the fact that he was 67 years old, didnt show signs of drowning, and had severe arthritis. What do you guys think about this? -
Peace be upon you Greene Leaves,
Quote
The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically.I am not a "white supremacist " if that's what's being implied here. As a matter of fact it were my white teachers who told us how much these Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Turks, etc accomplished during their era. My comment was meant to say that they weren't advanced in terms of inventing an X-Ray machine, a dialysis machine etc...not to say they were stupid. To be an ace when it comes to scientific knowledge one would need scientific equipment to some extent such as a microscope; if these people did not even have that...it was fascinating how they developed so much. That's what I meant to say while giving the ancient people a comment not a bad remark.
Racism is racism. If you bad-mouth black people its racisim. If you bad-mouth Asians, its racism. If you bad-mouth white people its STILL racism. Putting one group down without any basis but bias is not something I do.
Let me be absolutely clear that I was not calling anyone racist, only showing what racists do, that was all. We have all been effected by the teachings of "white supremicts" because white people have been the conquerors. My goal was only to point out that the people of Kemet taught the Greeks and if the Greeks are always "praied" as the fathers of civilization, what prevents the people of Kemet from being spoken of in the same manner.
It makes no difference what color the person was who intuited certain things, but we can see a serious effort to make sure that people don't know anything about Kemet, which is a word that means "Land of the Blacks".
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Peace,
I believe we had quite a bit of misunderstanding there.
I agree that people of the African-origin (they say we are all Africans) meaning black people around the world were and still are being treated as second-class citizens.
I studied slavery and the slave owners would tell the black people they are stupid. How absurd! I've seen the best of doctors, lawyers, computer programmers to be black. They have utmost humility and dignity in them.
Something should be done here but I am not sure just what. Lets pray to God to bring peace, security, harmony and open-mindedness in our world.
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Salaam all,
Well I just finished watching a show on the discovery channel called Ramses Wrath of God or Wrath of man...
You beat me to it, I just watched it this weekend, and you're right about the guesswork, infact I kept saying - conjecture upon conjecture.
They based this on the fact that his skeletal remains show severe arthritis and a lot of other stuff that would stop him from being able to pursue moses on a chariot (plus he was 67 years old), and no signs of drowning.
Okay, now this is the stuff I found intriguing out of everything they said! No signs of drowning, the only 'salt' they found was 'natron' which is used in preserving the mummies. I don't know much about this history, and haven't bothered looking into it, until a friend of mine told me to watch this show on discovery channel, because it 'contradicted the bible'. Most of the information wasn't accurate, and even the archeologists and historians were not 100% convinced of their own theories. Having said that though, they pretty much concluded (for sure) that Rameses II and two other Pharaohs were NOT the ones who went after Moses (and drowned).
Another interesting issue was that, some of what's written in hieroglyphics on the walls was propaganda. For example, they would never write of the Pharaoh's defeats in wars, etc. They would always show him as being victorious. It made me wonder of how much of the findings, even if excavated is 'true'. http//web.gay.hr/smilies/think.gif
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Peace be upon you Zenje,
Another interesting issue was that, some of what's written in hieroglyphics on the walls was propaganda. For example, they would never write of the Pharaoh's defeats in wars, etc. They would always show him as being victorious. It made me wonder of how much of the findings, even if excavated is 'true'.
Yes, only THAT which we can confirm in life is TRUE, no matter where it is written. wink
These so called "egyptologists" are misleading the people with thier nonsense. Where are all the African Scholars of this AFRICAN CIVILIZATION? Why all Caucasion and Arab egyptians? Everyone is so interested in this civilization, why?
I urge you all to read "Metu Neter" by Ra Un Nefer Amen to learn the spiritual system that was used then from the African (HOLISTIC) Perspective.
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From everything I have looked at, Seti I, Ramses II, or Merenptah could not have been the pharoah(s) of the Exodus. There is a tablet from the reign of Merneptah, the Merneptah Stela, that mentions Israel. Meaning at this point Israel was already a nation. Therefore both Merneptah and Ramses II and Seti are automatically out because the time just doesn't add up.
I think the pharoah of the exodus was much before this time period, but within the New Kingdom. I say this because the term Pharaoh was used for the Kings starting at this point. That is why the king of Egypt during Josephs time in Egypt is simply refered to as king in the Quran.
I think who ever the pharaoh was, his body remains or is yet to be discovered. But it can't be any of the pharaohs whos body is lost to grave robbers or some other misfortune because the Quran says the pharaohs body is preserved for future generations. Now, maybe this verse means something else, but if Im right, then we have to look at the pharoahs whose bodies remain.
I read an article saying that Haman is mentioned in some egytion etching. Yea Haman is mentioned, but that Haman was under Khufu who was way before this time period (2551 - 2528 BCE). So it could not have been Khufu, plus his body does not remain.
Also, I don't think Haman was a person. I think Haman is a reference to the Priesthood of Amun.
"Pharaoh said 'O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!' " (283Is it making a reference to the chiefs at the temple of Amun? Not sure. Then theres another name mentioned, Qaroon. Haven't found any reference to this. Maybe Kaemamun(fourth priest of Amun) under Thutmose III. But thats a stretch.
Going back to the existing mummies of pharoahs, we got the following mummies from the time period we are looking at, we got the following
Ahmose I - This was a female. Pharaoh of Moses was defenitly not female.
Thutmose II- Reign lasted approx 12 years. 1491-1479. His mummy is covered with scabs "which may have been a mummymakers mistake rather than signs of a disease."
Thutmose III - 1504 - 1450 BC. His mummy was so badly damaged " that later mummymakers used wooden splints tied to what was left of the body to reinforce it".
Then we got a few more Pharaohs that I will not mention because I dont think its worth mentioning them. Well anyways, from these I think Thutmose III is a good suspect. His reign fits in the time period. He became Pharoah as a child.
"Pharaoh) said 'Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life? "(261Also, as Layth mentioned Firoun Thul Awtad means Pharoah of the wooden beams. Could this be referring to the state of the Pharaohs mummy? As mentioned earlier, Thutmose III's mummy was "so badly damaged that later mummymakers used wooden splints tied to what was left of the body to reinforce it."
But then again, Thutmose III was a very popular pharaoh. I don't think a Pharaoh that was killed by a slave revolt, and brought so many misfortunes (plagues while Moses was there) during his reign would have been popular.
Honestly, there is a lot conflicting data and its hard to pinpoint who the Pharaoh was. I think it would be possible to identify him if archaeologists were able to survey Jabal Lawz, which imo is clearly Mount Sinai due to the overwhelming physical evidence there.
Also, is there a literal meaning to Haman or Qaroon? Something linguistic Im missing here? And why is pharaoh refered to as Fir'aun? Isn't that Fir'aun a completly different word?
Heres a complete list of Pharaohs whose mummies have been found. I made reference to this site in this post.
http//www.mummytombs.com/egypt/pharaohmummies.htm -
I seen that show on the Discovery Channel also and I was saying to my self they are using the words of Movies and myths concerning the Pharoah of the Exodus from the Biblical point of view that is,because the Bible does not say that Pharoah drowned,it says Pharoahs Army drowned.This makes since,because they Phaoraoh would have sent his army after them into the sea,he would not have went..
Hmmm Thutmose III - 1504 - 1450 BC.
His mummy was so badly damaged " that later mummymakers used wooden splints tied to what was left of the body to reinforce it".
Also, as Layth mentioned Firoun Thul Awtad means Pharoah of the wooden beams. Could this be referring to the state of the Pharaohs mummy? As mentioned earlier, Thutmose III's mummy was "so badly damaged that later mummymakers used wooden splints tied to what was left of the body to reinforce it."
Very interesting indeed,could be the same Pharoah,and its interesting that Moses name in Kemetic was Mss and Thutmoses names was Th't-Mss which is very similar.
