The feeling of the extreme minority
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I don't know if I can explain it well but I'm sure some of you have experienced it.
Those of us who follow the Quran only obviously feel that this is the correct way of living. But I can't help but think sometimes about just how the vast majority seemingly disobey what God commands, specifically to worship Him and Him alone.
I don't think I am better than these people or that I judge them or anything like that. I pray to God myself to keep me on the straight path. But I cant help but feel this feeling of being in an extreme minority of people. And, to be honest, I don't like the feeling. I guess it bothers me that so many people are going against God and I just have to wonder why. Is salvation really reserved for a very, very small minority of all humanity?
I'm not sure I have a question. All I can say is many thoughts rush through my head when thinking about this issue. I ask myself, why must the majority of people be this way? It doesnt seem "fair" that so many are destined for Hell, for lack of a better way of saying it. But I do believe God is Just and knows better than I do.
I dont know what the point of this thread is really except to ask if you guys have had similar thoughts. Peace.
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Meaning that just because someone isn't Quran only doesn't mean they are misguided.
Oh yeah, I totally agree. And I hope I didn't imply that in my post. I'm referring to the people who are disobeying foundational Quranic precepts, specifically shirk.
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Peace Caveman Dr.,
Very interesting post. While I do empathize with your current feelings, I think the Qur'an has already addressed this for you...
569
those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.Take comfort in the fact that we are all different, even those of us grouped together in this forum. The important thing is that people believe in the consequences of their actions, in the unity of this world, and they strive to improve themselves, those around them, and this planet.
Most people will folow what they've been taught by people they trust. You can be certain that Allah is well aware of this. This is why it's important for us not to judge others, as only Allah knows what is in a person's heart.
So, the person you're feeling sorry for may be the person who has saved the lives of abused children, who takes in stray animals, who cleans the litter on the highway, or visits strangers in prison. Just because he may be of a sectarian group does not nullify the good he has injected into life.
As Riz stated, God is not black and white. You'd be challenged to find anyone who can describe God, or the way God works.
Peace,
Tay -
Some interesting posts. I feel the need to respond.
phoenix You're right; I bet there are millions around the world like that but the world's population is what, close to 7 billion? A very small minority, it seems. But of course we don't know what's in anyone's heart, only God knows. And this brings me to my next point.
Tay brought up an interesting verse which I have read many times. Maybe my interpretation is faulty.
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those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.Clearly this does not refer to any Jew/Sabian/Christian, for elsewhere in the Qur'an it very harshly admonishes those who, for example, takes Jesus as the son of God. It says this is tantamount to shirk, an unforgivable sin. So we must conclude that this verse refers to a subset of Jews/Sabians/Christians, namely those whose beliefs are in line with other fundamental Qur'anic precepts, namely true tawhid.
So we come back full circle to the point about those who disobey. Again, I don't know what is in the hearts of the people but one can easily say that the majority of Christians, for example, believe in a Trinitarian God, Jesus as God-man, Jesus as the son of God, etc. I am not judging, but the Qur'an is.
But you guys are right; I oversimplified the issue. None of us knows what is in people's hearts; we can only go by their words. And God knows best.
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Take comfort in the fact that we are all different, even those of us grouped together in this forum. The important thing is that people believe in the consequences of their actions, in the unity of this world, and they strive to improve themselves, those around them, and this planet.
This is how I feel too... they are different ways of believing in God and doing good deeds. I would like to add something though. God is just. So if someone has believed in God and done good deeds but has mistakenly attached some other partner to God or whatnot, then the sins will be weighed against the good deeds. I don't think anyone on this forum can say that they have never in the slightest sinned... humans are imperfect and it shows. To me, it's a question of how you lead your life in general and in the end there will be a Judgment based on your intentions, your good deeds and your bad deeds, each cancelling the other out, so if the good deeds outweigh the bad, you're going to be fine. Remember that God is just and merciful. Personally I think the Qur'an is written in a manner to make the sins seem worse than they really are so as to get the message across to us humans who have a tendency to not heed warnings. Does an unforgivable sin mean that you will automatically go to hell, or does it mean that it will be definitely be taken into account on judgment day and weighed against your good deeds, whereas forgivable sins can be cancelled before even getting to Judgment day? I think this question is purposefully left open to push us toward not sinning.
As for being a minority, I have no problem with it. The opinion of the masses rarely equals the truth, which by the way is why most western democracies function so badly. I mean if you're going to build a bridge, are you going to ask an engineer about the technical aspects, or are you going to take a democratic vote on it? So, are you going to trust God on spiritual matters, or would you prefer a democratic vote? I think it might be smarter to leave it up to the expert, no?
Look at the Prophets... did they have an easy time being on the side of the truth? NO, they were in a tiny minority at their time. Only after their deaths did the masses start to see the light. So don't be afraid to be in the minority, if you know you're right.
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claurianta, you bring up very interesting points.
I agree; none of us is perfect. We all sin. That's not really what I'm talking about though. Is it not the case that if you die in a state of shirk, you are destined for Hell? Maybe my misunderstanding is incorrect. Can you provide verses that say otherwise?
I think your point here is very interesting and it should be researched "Does an unforgivable sin mean that you will automatically go to hell, or does it mean that it will be definitely be taken into account on judgment day and weighed against your good deeds, whereas forgivable sins can be cancelled before even getting to Judgment day?"
It has always been my understanding that if one dies in a state of shirk, not worshipping God alone, then he/she is destined for Hell. I thought this was clear in the Qur'an. I think we should talk about this.
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claurianta, you bring up very interesting points.
I agree; none of us is perfect. We all sin. That's not really what I'm talking about though. Is it not the case that if you die in a state of shirk, you are destined for Hell? Maybe my misunderstanding is incorrect. Can you provide verses that say otherwise?
I think your point here is very interesting and it should be researched "Does an unforgivable sin mean that you will automatically go to hell, or does it mean that it will be definitely be taken into account on judgment day and weighed against your good deeds, whereas forgivable sins can be cancelled before even getting to Judgment day?"
It has always been my understanding that if one dies in a state of shirk, not worshipping God alone, then he/she is destined for Hell. I thought this was clear in the Qur'an. I think we should talk about this.
Hmmm... I wonder if your understanding on shirk... at least the kind that automatically leads to hell is correct. I unfortunately don't have the time to look through the Qur'an right now, but is there a difference in believing God does not exist on one hand, and in believing in God but also believing in other "gods" when you die on the other hand? Both are bad, but does the second automatically lead us to hell? Isn't believing in God really the core requirement (and I think there is even quite a bit of latitude in exactly how we understand God, as it is a concept/entity beyond understanding), and then everything else just gets weighed against each other?
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claurianta, you bring up very interesting points.
I agree; none of us is perfect. We all sin. That's not really what I'm talking about though. Is it not the case that if you die in a state of shirk, you are destined for Hell? Maybe my misunderstanding is incorrect. Can you provide verses that say otherwise?
I think your point here is very interesting and it should be researched "Does an unforgivable sin mean that you will automatically go to hell, or does it mean that it will be definitely be taken into account on judgment day and weighed against your good deeds, whereas forgivable sins can be cancelled before even getting to Judgment day?"
It has always been my understanding that if one dies in a state of shirk, not worshipping God alone, then he/she is destined for Hell. I thought this was clear in the Qur'an. I think we should talk about this.
Hmmm... I wonder if your understanding on shirk... at least the kind that automatically leads to hell is correct. I unfortunately don't have the time to look through the Qur'an right now, but is there a difference in believing God does not exist on one hand, and in believing in God but also believing in other "gods" when you die on the other hand? Both are bad, but does the second automatically lead us to hell? Isn't believing in God really the core requirement (and I think there is even quite a bit of latitude in exactly how we understand God, as it is a concept/entity beyond understanding), and then everything else just gets weighed against each other?
claurianta, yeah i'm looking through the Qur'an. I hope others can chime in.
But I must say you do raise a good point. For example, I came across these verses
934-35 "....and those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution. On the day when they will be seared in the fires of Hell, and their foreheads and sides and backs will be branded with it 'This is what you have hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you have hoarded!'"
These verses seem to be in line with your interpretation. They seem to show that those who hoard money are destined for Hell yet, from the rest of the Qur'an, it seems this is not entirely true. Is it really logical that those who simply hoard money will be destined for Hell? And yet, the verse proclaims they are destined for Hell. So maybe it is like you said, namely that the Qur'an isnt saying that any one of these activities (hoarding, etc.) are sufficient to get you into Hell, but rather one of many things taken into account.
The only question (and the one you raised), then, is whether shirk (which I take to mean idolatry, or worshipping an "ilah" either in place of, or in addition to, God) is in the same category of these other offenses. Is shirk seen in the same light as hoarding money, for example? Even if we grant that shirk is worse than hoarding money, is it a difference of degree or is it fundamentally and categorically different, i.e. a difference of kind, not degree?
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By the way, this was the verse I was thinking about when I spoke of shirk.
448 "GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense."
It seems from this that "shirk" is categorically different from other offenses. God does not forgive shirk whereas other offenses may be forgiven.
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IMHO, the basic point is the value system.
NB A value system refers to how an individual or a group of individuals organize their ethical or ideological values. A well-defined value system is a moral code.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_systemIman is to believe in God's value system ; a value system that does not come from the society, but from something outside God ; a value system in which social promotion is not the goal of life ; a value system in which the ultimate reward is in the hereafter .
Iman should not be an opinion about the existence of something ; iman is the real conviction that God will, in the hereafter, requite us for our deeds.
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".Shirk is to believe in a false value system.
As an example, believing that killing female children is a good deed is shirk.
And taking one's value system from any political or religious ideology designed to serve the interests of some group of people (and not humankind) is shirk.Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.
I suggest you to read the quran with these definitions in mind. I am sure you will see it become clearer.
IMHO, everyone is able to know what is the right value system , every child come to life with this awareness.
But the majority of humans will, at some stage of our youth, refuse it, and adopt false value systems, or forget the belief in God and the hereafter to put our interests first.
Nonetheless, some people (whatever the environment in which they live, whatever the faith of their parents) will still abide by it, and do good deeds and avoid bad deeds.Peace
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Peace CavemanDoctor,
I know the feeling you're trying to convey. The ones who follow God alone are very few. Try not to let that dissuade you in any way. You can only do what you can only do. Remember all of God's messengers had/have only a few people with them. They lived much harder and lonelier (if that's a word) lives. Their relatives, friends and communities rejected them, shunned them and even killed them for calling to the truth.
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Or did you expect that you would enter Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said ?When is God?s victory?? Yes indeed, God?s victory is near.
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And who is better in the system than one who surrenders himself to God, and is a good doer, and he followed the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God has taken Abraham as a friend.
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And they nearly diverted you from what We inspired to you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!
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Peace be upon you,
There is none but GOD D Dont be depressed by the illusion of this test D It is the rejector that should be depressed, so far away from the God WITHIN. The one who is one with thier Creator should never feel lonely. Watch your thoughts.
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Clearly this does not refer to any Jew/Sabian/Christian, for elsewhere in the Qur'an it very harshly admonishes those who, for example, takes Jesus as the son of God. It says this is tantamount to shirk, an unforgivable sin. So we must conclude that this verse refers to a subset of Jews/Sabians/Christians, namely those whose beliefs are in line with other fundamental Qur'anic precepts, namely true tawhid.
Yes, I would go along with that. We call the latter Sabi
ah Hunafawhile the misguided Sabieen are called Sabiah Mushrikoon.Salaam
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how can you know what victory is when you haven't experienced defeat?