Dying in a state of kufr and shirk

imrankhawaja

blessing of God upon all brothers/sisters

the category of shirk and kuffar are really difficult to understand when different societies have different types of shirk so first most question is what shirk and kuffar is ?

wrong doing and sins always leave guilty feelings and its true and also in every socitey wrong doing never encouraged
like rob,steal,rape,murder etc ..

but about this wrongdoing or sin (SHIRK) nobody whoever is doing it, he/she is not even feeling anything even the LAW didnt really bother about this wrongdoing/sin so actually as far i can see we are understanding this term differently we need to find out what is shirk in reality ?

logically if shirk is what we consider as shirk then something is tricky becoz on one hand book of God claims every nation is there due to a reason, and a survery tells us 98 % people adopted a same faith what they get birth in so while asking from them they are satisfied in their heart that they are not doing shirk(griss wrongdoing) but from the lens of other people they are in clear error? same goes with every label of religion.

why there is such a satisfaction on gross sin of all faiths ?

a close example of kaffir is firoon in literal sense who knew the truth but cant accept it due to ego.

we need to see what shirk is in actual.

Greetings all,

Just some questions...

peace zulf hope u allright, i ll try to answer some of ur questions

What is Allah?
How do you believe in Allah?

Allah/God is a master source of every material and immaterial thing/being.

because somebody must desinged all this game/play what we can feel/see.

How do you follow the guidance of Allah?
What is this guidance? Books? What about all interpretations which in turn end up pretty much subjective?
Is there some other guidance?

Guidance is just a guidance
when human/gps/map/mind/book/interpretation will guide you to the path its involved risks in it so its a duty of passenger to continue the travel at his/her own responsibility. he has to make sure he is on the right path , and when he knows he is heading towards right path he will keep calm and sleepy but still risks of accidents are ahead ..

How do you set up partners with Allah?
Can Allah even have partners? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

What does 'partner' mean anyway?
Aren't we all agents of the Creator in various odd ways?

partner means equal in terms of any power of finance/crime/relationship in worldy terms.

you are true there is not any partner of God in whole system a true logical God is one.

thats why people unrightfully set things/beings equal to God and it was a gross mistake,using word partners is not correct for God. God is far above what we can associate with him

agents are not equal to partners .. becoz partners are the creator of firm/business where agents work..

Zulf

I wonder exactly how people make partners equal to God.
What are some examples?
I've never seen any cases where people have an all-mighty God, and then they keep another entity beside God who is of equal powers. Not even Hinduism seems to be doing this.
Perhaps in cases where some group might argue that the creator is not all-mighty and then have other powers filling those gaps... but are there any examples of that in the world?

All the best

amin

I think, When one says, my God is not yours then its Shirk, thats the basic start of splitting Him, like some having the idea that God blesses him and his clan more than other's, getting special privileges from Him. This is true in many religions like mainstream Islam, Jews, high class Hindu society thinking they are only born noble sacred and blessed etc.. and others not so.

huruf

I wonder exactly how people make partners equal to God.
What are some examples?
I've never seen any cases where people have an all-mighty God, and then they keep another entity beside God who is of equal powers. Not even Hinduism seems to be doing this.
Perhaps in cases where some group might argue that the creator is not all-mighty and then have other powers filling those gaps... but are there any examples of that in the world?

All the best

Glad to see you back, Zulf, hopefully you are staying with us some time.

I think that it is not a matter of showing any external appearance or imagerie of more than one "god", but rather our inner image.

Let us say e are worried out a dear person to us, that she may be in danger, that murderers or whatever may catch her...
Mentally where does a common sense worry and rationalisation of dangers end and where does the fear of the unknown start. Does not God also rule in those things we do not know?

Of course we should show caution in everything in life, but no matter how much precaution we show, things still happen, there creeps the fear of other than God...

For our own sake, once we behave with foresight and caution we should be able not to worry, but in fact we do worry...

That is just one way where our asociating to God may creep into our hearts and minds. We associat emurderers to God, car accidents, diseases...

Salaam

good_logic

Saying GOD has got power and believing GOD is the only power are two different things.

our attitude towards our creator and our deep intention/thoughts/convictions about "who is our god/priority?" is the issue.

Some are rendering lip service to GOD and have "different gods/priorities". Other things/ways/systems/people that they hold dear to them and ignore GOD s system.
There are many examples Zulf
1- Our wealth and properties .
2- Our tradition /race/status.
3-Our ego/arrogance.
4- Our desires and loyalties to others.
...
All these can take us away from being fair/just and good to ourselves and others. i.e lead us away from sirat Al Mustaqueem.
They are the partners that one can take as gods beside GOD Alone.
I am not saying we cannot have these in moderation and still keep on the straight path, but we need to stay " conscious" and always aware that "loyalty to GOD s path" is the utmost priority.
My take.
GOD bless.
Peace.

SarahY

Peace Everyone

I don't know what total loyalty to God means. is that even possible with human nature.Yes people believe God but the understanding of God is shaped by their beliefs from scriptures, experiences, upbringing etc.

Yes Jafar, death is the living fear but maybe not for one who thinks or rather believes they'd be promised paradise.

By accepting death.. when the time comes.
And truly believe that you were, are and always will be in good hands.
By then you shall no longer have any fear

That's a nice way of looking at it. But I don't think the fear will escape. Maybe the heart will be a little contented.

This is ridiculous, if a soul was put within a culture of X.
99% probability he/she will follow the culture of X.

Isn't that the point though... Be put in culture of x and see if you can handle accept and strive for truth.

Good logic makes a good point about accountability.

This is the dilemma we strive for good because it?s good for us, makes us humble, helps our brethren etc etc but also because of the fear of judgement day/hell/punishment and also because of the reward of paradise. Why strive for good if you?re going to be bound for hell or forbidden from it. So then is the good done in vain? So are we gambling our life or eternity in the hope we don?t commit shirk and have God?s mercy. Maybe so. May God have mercy on us!

Someone asked me how do I know I?m a ?true? believer (as in a mumina)? Do I think I?m going to heaven? Do I spend 51% or more of my living doing good. At this point all I can conclude is no-one can truly know but one will believe they are based on their understandings of what it constitutes. I think most of my day is on autopilot so can?t think/quantify that i?m spending more than 51% of my life doing specific good deeds but I don?t know if that?s a fair criteria but I can see why one may think if they spend 51%+ doing good then basically they?re guaranteed paradise.

Interesting about maghfira Novice, though guidance other than God = shirk seems abit too harsh or simplistic because don?t we all look for guidance elsewhere in one way or another? we don't have encyclopedias imprinted in our brains. Teachers guide students, people get tips, tricks and inspiration from others. People seek guidance/advice from family and friends in tough times, in anticipations to diff events, milestones etc, etc.

How do you set up partners with Allah?

This is a good question Zulf.

Imrankhawaja

wrong doing and sins always leave guilty feelings and its true and also in every socitey wrong doing never encouraged
like rob,steal,rape,murder etc ..

Maybe but people also feel guilt for doing things they were taught were wrong but actually aren?t "wrong". e.g. not wearing a headscarf, shaving the beard off, wearing shorts, speaking against parents, listening to music, disagreeing with cultural practises. bla bla bla. so the notion of guilt = wrong is incorrect in my view.

Zulf

I wonder exactly how people make partners equal to God.
What are some examples?

Ever consider when people say "God said this and that" because such and such told them so? would that be shirk?

What about people who say they believe in God, bow down and prostrate to a statue and say this represents God? or people who say they God is in them, they are the God of the earth?

1- Our wealth and properties .
2- Our tradition /race/status.
3-Our ego/arrogance.
4- Our desires and loyalties to others.
...
All these can take us away from being fair/just and good to ourselves and others. i.e lead us away from sirat Al Mustaqueem.

and without those things we are like robots but I guess they can do both lead us away or bring us closer to God

good_logic

Peace All.
Can we get away with it ,at GOD s, by saying "If I am not sure/unaware of what shirk is, then I cannot be accountable for doing it".
Or I think I understand it this way or that way...But I cannot be bothered to know for sure.

So many verses where Qoran tells us to ponder/search/get to know "Wa Ma Yaakiluha illa Al Aalimoon"... We have to find out to the best of our ability what shirk is.

Qoran says many believe in GOD but commit shirk, then adds that we are not even aware of our deep convictions. We pretend/are lazy /hasty /change loyalties/give in to peer pressure/follow easily....i.e not be bothered and give up on hard tasks.

Qoran advises "Oh my son do not commit shirk, shirk is "Dhulmun Adeem""

The priority of all priorities, once we are aware of GOD s message ,is to seek knowledge about what the message is saying and why!!!

So after we all have a go at giving our take (see my earlier posts on my take)on what is shirk in this thread, and cannot find a common explanation for it, what then?
Your thoughts?
GOD bless you all.
Peace

Rilum

Salam/Peace all.

I am not 100 percent sure.

Makaveli

Would someone know he/she is commiting idolatry if that person lived away from multi-cultural civilizations and before the Internet? In other words, happen you did not know about "one true God", would you "shirk"?

imrankhawaja

Someone asked me how do I know I?m a ?true? believer (as in a mumina)? Do I think I?m going to heaven? Do I spend 51% or more of my living doing good.

peace Sarah,

i also ask this question from myself the first memory of this question is when i was nearly kid. dnt know why when i share this question to any knowledgeable or wise person older than me,

they replied,
these are the ideas of satan >

BOLD and 51% its interesting figure usually in academic studies we need to get 40% for passing marks ..
anyway 51% is also not that difficult as we see majortiy of people have just two or three wrong doings in some cases just one wrong doing .. but you are right we always fear for the results of exams even when we were about to get 90% marks. fear is in the nature of human being.

logically God will judge people according to the ability of understanding with the circumstances of person.. and judge just cant send somebody into prison just becoz he refused to accept judge as judge in reality this does not affect judge as he already knows he is legit judge..

Imrankhawaja
Maybe but people also feel guilt for doing things they were taught were wrong but actually aren?t "wrong". e.g. not wearing a headscarf, shaving the beard off, wearing shorts, speaking against parents, listening to music, disagreeing with cultural practises. bla bla bla. so the notion of guilt = wrong is incorrect in my view.

basically i m talking with my own experience so its intresting to share with you guys .

i did all oof these things when i was still under the cover of tradition but i never ever feel guilty in singing,listening, even dancing lol
i also disagree with culture practices , and one of my uncle said to me to have beard its shirk to remove your beard rotfl but i really didnt listen or believe .. and i never feel guilty but i feel relaxed and chilled to be honest..

apart from one thing i never go against my mother ,
although when i speak with my mom loudly in childhood i suddenly keep thinkin within myself i did a worst ever thing and after couple of mins i goes to her and hug her and i feel satisfaction.. this thing happen just few times in life before i see the verse dnt say a slight guesture of "uff" to ur parents ..

so basically bold catagory is included in sins and higher level of immorality but again all these things are not crimes and thats where we are struggling what is the difference between sin and crime?

and if shirk is not a crime then why there is a punisment for shirk?
who is to blame? everybody have their own kind of shirk?

imrankhawaja

peace and blessing of God upon all of you.

i have another theory in mind about this "SHIRK" myth.

lets consider SHIRK as gross crime and grand sin and then see what shirk is in actual..

as per this logically God will judge people according to the ability of understanding with the circumstances of person.. and judge just cant send somebody into prison just becoz he refused to accept judge as judge in reality this does not affect judge as he already knows he is legit judge..

so we have to rethink with logic instead of history to see what is actual shirk infront of creator and infront of general public..

mix of both sin + crime = shirk so its same like the concept of salat

same like salat is broad as per quran and a perfect examples of anti musali are in chapter 7 ..

so shirk is also a plural and broad kind of wrongdoings..
example (raping,killing,stealing) in one event describe three crimes but one shirk the person is disturbing/trying to challenging the nature and thats why when a bad ass boy do everything without any fear of law/society/God then he is lost case and he is mushrik as per people .. becoz he is not caring of anything what he see from his eyes..

example his mother is telling him not to do.. but he is doing it without any fear.. he reject his mom over his plural sins and one by one the reaction of nature make him more cruel in his attentions.. (ending up in jail/or ending up in torture cell of some enemies what he created with his own hands , or he will gona get insane due to his own conscience guilt) all are the situation in which we can feel hell..

basically he is an advance criminal of society (mushrik =literal)

if somebody can see where i am coming from they can input more ideas..

shirk really is disturbing me becoz God is free of need he dnt need people to believe on him forcefully, eventually everybody knows they been created..

Zulf

Would someone know he/she is commiting idolatry if that person lived away from multi-cultural civilizations and before the Internet? In other words, happen you did not know about "one true God", would you "shirk"?

Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
Multi-cultural settings are nothing but several mono-cultures side by side. Shifting from one to another COULD be like staying within only one. From one, to another one.

My point is only that things might not be as clear and straight forward as many religious people may claim.
Cheers
O0

Makaveli

Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
Multi-cultural settings are nothing but several mono-cultures side by side. Shifting from one to another COULD be like staying within only one. From one, to another one.

Good answer.

good_logic

Peace Zulf.
What do you make of Qoran?

Does it not answer thisWho says we know about 'one true God' now?

There is nothing here under the sun that has not been taught by someone or something.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

Who says we know about 'one true God' now?

TRUE
we only know what someone else taught us but the chain has to go back somewhere at start. who was the one who taught at the first place.. ?

TRUE God never stop sending his signs untill now..

All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.

its different what interpretation say about God compared to what God actually said.

perhaps its also something like sign
964 The One who taught by the pen.
965 He taught the human being what he did not know.

The Pen symbolizes the exchange of knowledge through written records, unique to man. Since this is a Divine gift to mankind, ?It is He Who taught.?

My point is only that things might not be as clear and straight forward as many religious people may claim.
Cheers
O0

true ..
its different what they say about what God say? vs what what actually said ..

cheers
blessing in the name of God

imrankhawaja

same like salat is broad as per quran and a perfect examples of anti musali are in chapter 7 ..

typing error , chapter 107

Zulf

Peace Zulf.
What do you make of Qoran?

Does it not answer thisWho says we know about 'one true God' now?

There is nothing here under the sun that has not been taught by someone or something.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

The Quran? I don't know. But I'm biased in favor of divine inspiration... but I find interpretations disturbing.
So, if I find something disturbing, it can be for different reasons.
I will always be biased and subjective, but the question is to what extent and in what questions.
I can be biased and at the same time right or wrong.
Perhaps I find stuff disturbing simply because the text interpretations are wrong, against common sense and reason... but common sense and reason are at the same time very subjective.
But I think it is best if we cross reference everything against everything else, if you know what I mean. Insight can come from anywhere, or be triggered by anything.

From experience it seems like this
Nobody is right about everything. You can find people who are really enlightened or insightful about something, and then they have very odd ideas about something else.
So, nobody is perfect in knowledge and understanding. When you realize this you can avoid disappointment. Some people are not comfortable with such disappointment and instead prefer perfect people with perfect knowledge, and so they get stuck in sects and what not.

I actually think that the brain/mind/intellect is a sharp double edged sword.
It is a curse upon us, a burden and challenge, while at the same time we can fine tune it and use it to understand it's dangers and thereby avoid being trapped in blindness by it.
The intellect can enslave you, but also be used to make your way forward and design thinking habits which prevent you from being intellectually enslaved/blinded.
"I don't know" is much better that a false and factually incorrect idea.

sun

good_logic

I understand you brother Zulf.
My problem is how long do we remain a "do not know"?
We have to pursue/carry on a journey towards "I must try my best to know". Even a false knowledge is better than a "do not know".

I suppose when challenged with a better knowledge from others ,we must not remain in our false knowledge because of pride.
Our instinct and logic will always warn us from being "dogmatic" if we are honest and sincere ,we will listen.
Thanks and GOD bless you.
Peace.

hawk99

Again, shirk is no mystery

There is shirk via taghut. (following what he says as opposed to what Allah says)

We have institutionalized shirk. (governments)

There is cultural shirk. (Ancestors, additions put in place)

There is shirk thru ego. (What I want)

There is shirk from arrogance. (I don't listen)

Belief in false claims that folks know the unseen. (I need help from fortune tellers, mystics etc.,)

Beliefs contrary to Quran hmm yeah I know, needs further explanations

Shirk because of emotional and physical needs. (boyfriend, girlfriend)

Innovations.

The_Sardar