Dying in a state of kufr and shirk
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Someone asked me how do I know I?m a ?true? believer (as in a mumina)? Do I think I?m going to heaven? Do I spend 51% or more of my living doing good.
peace Sarah,
i also ask this question from myself the first memory of this question is when i was nearly kid. dnt know why when i share this question to any knowledgeable or wise person older than me,
they replied,
these are the ideas of satan >BOLD and 51% its interesting figure usually in academic studies we need to get 40% for passing marks ..
anyway 51% is also not that difficult as we see majortiy of people have just two or three wrong doings in some cases just one wrong doing .. but you are right we always fear for the results of exams even when we were about to get 90% marks. fear is in the nature of human being.logically God will judge people according to the ability of understanding with the circumstances of person.. and judge just cant send somebody into prison just becoz he refused to accept judge as judge in reality this does not affect judge as he already knows he is legit judge..
Imrankhawaja
Maybe but people also feel guilt for doing things they were taught were wrong but actually aren?t "wrong". e.g. not wearing a headscarf, shaving the beard off, wearing shorts, speaking against parents, listening to music, disagreeing with cultural practises. bla bla bla. so the notion of guilt = wrong is incorrect in my view.basically i m talking with my own experience so its intresting to share with you guys .
i did all oof these things when i was still under the cover of tradition but i never ever feel guilty in singing,listening, even dancing lol
i also disagree with culture practices , and one of my uncle said to me to have beard its shirk to remove your beard rotfl but i really didnt listen or believe .. and i never feel guilty but i feel relaxed and chilled to be honest..apart from one thing i never go against my mother ,
although when i speak with my mom loudly in childhood i suddenly keep thinkin within myself i did a worst ever thing and after couple of mins i goes to her and hug her and i feel satisfaction.. this thing happen just few times in life before i see the verse dnt say a slight guesture of "uff" to ur parents ..so basically bold catagory is included in sins and higher level of immorality but again all these things are not crimes and thats where we are struggling what is the difference between sin and crime?
and if shirk is not a crime then why there is a punisment for shirk?
who is to blame? everybody have their own kind of shirk? -
peace and blessing of God upon all of you.
i have another theory in mind about this "SHIRK" myth.
lets consider SHIRK as gross crime and grand sin and then see what shirk is in actual..
as per this logically God will judge people according to the ability of understanding with the circumstances of person.. and judge just cant send somebody into prison just becoz he refused to accept judge as judge in reality this does not affect judge as he already knows he is legit judge..
so we have to rethink with logic instead of history to see what is actual shirk infront of creator and infront of general public..
mix of both sin + crime = shirk so its same like the concept of salat
same like salat is broad as per quran and a perfect examples of anti musali are in chapter 7 ..
so shirk is also a plural and broad kind of wrongdoings..
example (raping,killing,stealing) in one event describe three crimes but one shirk the person is disturbing/trying to challenging the nature and thats why when a bad ass boy do everything without any fear of law/society/God then he is lost case and he is mushrik as per people .. becoz he is not caring of anything what he see from his eyes..example his mother is telling him not to do.. but he is doing it without any fear.. he reject his mom over his plural sins and one by one the reaction of nature make him more cruel in his attentions.. (ending up in jail/or ending up in torture cell of some enemies what he created with his own hands , or he will gona get insane due to his own conscience guilt) all are the situation in which we can feel hell..
basically he is an advance criminal of society (mushrik =literal)
if somebody can see where i am coming from they can input more ideas..
shirk really is disturbing me becoz God is free of need he dnt need people to believe on him forcefully, eventually everybody knows they been created..
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Would someone know he/she is commiting idolatry if that person lived away from multi-cultural civilizations and before the Internet? In other words, happen you did not know about "one true God", would you "shirk"?
Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
Multi-cultural settings are nothing but several mono-cultures side by side. Shifting from one to another COULD be like staying within only one. From one, to another one.My point is only that things might not be as clear and straight forward as many religious people may claim.
Cheers
O0 -
Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
Multi-cultural settings are nothing but several mono-cultures side by side. Shifting from one to another COULD be like staying within only one. From one, to another one.Good answer.
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Peace Zulf.
What do you make of Qoran?Does it not answer thisWho says we know about 'one true God' now?
There is nothing here under the sun that has not been taught by someone or something.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
TRUE
we only know what someone else taught us but the chain has to go back somewhere at start. who was the one who taught at the first place.. ?TRUE God never stop sending his signs untill now..
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
its different what interpretation say about God compared to what God actually said.
perhaps its also something like sign
964 The One who taught by the pen.
965 He taught the human being what he did not know.The Pen symbolizes the exchange of knowledge through written records, unique to man. Since this is a Divine gift to mankind, ?It is He Who taught.?
My point is only that things might not be as clear and straight forward as many religious people may claim.
Cheers
O0true ..
its different what they say about what God say? vs what what actually said ..cheers
blessing in the name of God -
same like salat is broad as per quran and a perfect examples of anti musali are in chapter 7 ..
typing error , chapter 107
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Peace Zulf.
What do you make of Qoran?Does it not answer thisWho says we know about 'one true God' now?
There is nothing here under the sun that has not been taught by someone or something.
GOD bless you.
Peace.The Quran? I don't know. But I'm biased in favor of divine inspiration... but I find interpretations disturbing.
So, if I find something disturbing, it can be for different reasons.
I will always be biased and subjective, but the question is to what extent and in what questions.
I can be biased and at the same time right or wrong.
Perhaps I find stuff disturbing simply because the text interpretations are wrong, against common sense and reason... but common sense and reason are at the same time very subjective.
But I think it is best if we cross reference everything against everything else, if you know what I mean. Insight can come from anywhere, or be triggered by anything.From experience it seems like this
Nobody is right about everything. You can find people who are really enlightened or insightful about something, and then they have very odd ideas about something else.
So, nobody is perfect in knowledge and understanding. When you realize this you can avoid disappointment. Some people are not comfortable with such disappointment and instead prefer perfect people with perfect knowledge, and so they get stuck in sects and what not.I actually think that the brain/mind/intellect is a sharp double edged sword.
It is a curse upon us, a burden and challenge, while at the same time we can fine tune it and use it to understand it's dangers and thereby avoid being trapped in blindness by it.
The intellect can enslave you, but also be used to make your way forward and design thinking habits which prevent you from being intellectually enslaved/blinded.
"I don't know" is much better that a false and factually incorrect idea.sun
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I understand you brother Zulf.
My problem is how long do we remain a "do not know"?
We have to pursue/carry on a journey towards "I must try my best to know". Even a false knowledge is better than a "do not know".I suppose when challenged with a better knowledge from others ,we must not remain in our false knowledge because of pride.
Our instinct and logic will always warn us from being "dogmatic" if we are honest and sincere ,we will listen.
Thanks and GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Again, shirk is no mystery
There is shirk via taghut. (following what he says as opposed to what Allah says)
We have institutionalized shirk. (governments)
There is cultural shirk. (Ancestors, additions put in place)
There is shirk thru ego. (What I want)
There is shirk from arrogance. (I don't listen)
Belief in false claims that folks know the unseen. (I need help from fortune tellers, mystics etc.,)
Beliefs contrary to Quran hmm yeah I know, needs further explanations
Shirk because of emotional and physical needs. (boyfriend, girlfriend)
Innovations.
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Again, shirk is no mystery
There is shirk via taghut. (following what he says as opposed to what Allah says)
We have institutionalized shirk. (governments)
There is cultural shirk. (Ancestors, additions put in place)
There is shirk thru ego. (What I want)
There is shirk from arrogance. (I don't listen)
Belief in false claims that folks know the unseen. (I need help from fortune tellers, mystics etc.,)
Beliefs contrary to Quran hmm yeah I know, needs further explanations
Shirk because of emotional and physical needs. (boyfriend, girlfriend)
Innovations.
In the bolded, racism is used like that.
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My problem is how long do we remain a "do not know"?
It's not a problem at all, the more "don't know" that you have, the more enlightened that you shall be.
As for how long? Until the end of times..We have to pursue/carry on a journey towards "I must try my best to know". Even a false knowledge is better than a "do not know".
The more enlightened you are, the more questions that you shall have.
The more questions that you shall have, the more "do not know" that you shall have.The less enlightened you are, the less questions that you shall have.
The less questions that you shall have, the less "do not know" that you shall have.False knowledge is a hint / clue for the path of true knowledge.
You can realize the truth through recognition of falsehood.
Once you realize the truth of a question, more additional questions shall sprung up which demanded answer.The question is can you realize falsehood within your own idea / hypothesis?
If you can, then the more enlightened shall you become, new questions shall instantly sprung up after you found an answer to a question, thus you shall realize that there is so many more things that you actually "don't know"."Enlightenment takes place when one lets his innocence emerge and sees nature and life with a childlike awe and respect. The ?why? of a child is repeated over and over, causing questions and the never-ending process of discovery."
-- Charles DuBack -
Again, shirk is no mystery
There is shirk via taghut. (following what he says as opposed to what Allah says)
We have institutionalized shirk. (governments)
There is cultural shirk. (Ancestors, additions put in place)
There is shirk thru ego. (What I want)
There is shirk from arrogance. (I don't listen)
Belief in false claims that folks know the unseen. (I need help from fortune tellers, mystics etc.,)
Beliefs contrary to Quran hmm yeah I know, needs further explanations
Shirk because of emotional and physical needs. (boyfriend, girlfriend)
Innovations.
In the bolded, racism is used like that.
Interesting, you point out the paradigm that shirk equals negativity
in many forms, thanks.peace
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Goodlogic
I never wondered if intentional ignorance would "let me loose". I think we have a duty to discover and learn and our learning or lack of will have its consequences.I intend to read more on shirk there's quite alot of verses related to it. Though ATM I've been busy prioritising worldly life. Just got into a job and it's not quite smooth running as I had hoped.
I agree with Jafar that not knowing isn?t the worst of things actually it?s maybe even humbling but I also think not knowing makes one feel deficient.
Makaveli
Would someone know he/she is commiting idolatry if that person lived away from multi-cultural civilizations and before the Internet? In other words, happen you did not know about "one true God", would you "shirk"?
What do you think?
Imrankhawaja
I don?t know anywhere that grants a pass with 40%. some courses I did needed 70% pass rates but yeah fear is human nature. The anxiety of not knowing or failing stresses people differently.About speaking against parents, I don't think it's a major sin though in my culture it's def frowned upon. Speaking against doesn't necessarily mean offing, swearing or being rude. Having an opinion that isn?t congruent can be quite conflicting particularly with authoritarian mindsets.
Hawk99
Based on what you have outlined it would seem shirk is very easy to commit.
We?re all governed by laws/governments, everyone grew up in a culture that has customs and people add and subtract to what suits them ? consciously or not, we all want things. -
I don?t know anywhere that grants a pass with 40%. some courses I did needed 70%
i was telling about my school exams passing percentage to promote a student to next level , in some areas the percentage of passing marks is even 33 %.
and it depends from level to level in some fields you have to qualify by even 90 % like in intelligence selection or public service commission exams and even in some there is no limit of higher percentage whoever comes at first 100 positions out of millions will get select...
but when i was reading your post i was thinking you are referring towards chap 101 its simple weights high and low.
yeah fear is human nature. The anxiety of not knowing or failing stresses people differently.
FEAR is main programe of this life .IT makes you reach your goal and keep telling you that you are in some kind of race towards betterment.. thats what everybodys thinking from worldy life to life hereafter.
About speaking against parents, I don't think it's a major sin though in my culture it's def frowned upon. Speaking against doesn't necessarily mean offing, swearing or being rude. Having an opinion that isn?t congruent can be quite conflicting particularly with authoritarian mindsets.
we misunderstood eachother..
obviously we can speak against our parents if we found them doing wrong or we can also debate with them on different issues but its nothing to b worried for or consider it as wrong doing .. respect is another thing and thinking about our life is another thing..another part in it when they reached at their old age and start behaving like kids then we dnt have to say a slight guesture of "uff"..at this age sense of feeling is like child and we should keep this thing in mind, they raised us as kids so both are different time situations of life.
? consciously or not, we all want things.
very true ..
thats what life is. life circle around things. things generate the business and earning of life system..in this life we have been created in struggle these things may b not valueable in hereafter as they are valueable here thats why when religious texts give a metaphor of hereafter to worldly related things they tell "plenty".
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I agree with Jafar that not knowing isn?t the worst of things actually it?s maybe even humbling but I also think not knowing makes one feel deficient.
Hey all,
People feel deficient and lost when in a state of not knowing. That's why people 'believe' stuff. A belief is comforting and soothing... something you can hook your mind and identity on. A crutch.
But people often claim to know when they actually only believe. You 'believe' when you actually 'don't know'. But it's hard to admit. -
Peace All.
Just what are we talking about here?
Shirk?
Then how can we remain ignorant of what shirk is if we know for sure there is a Creator and the message from the Creator says do not commit shirk?
Of course there are a lot of other things we do not know that do not really matter if you do not get to know them.
But it does matter if we remain ignorant of what shirk is!
Unless of course one is not sure or does not want to know, then they are making that decision.For those that do not believe/know for sure GOD exists or that there is a message from GOD this thread is irrelevant. There is no shirk /partner with GOD because there is no GOD in their reality.
GOD bless .
Peace. -
Hey all,
People feel deficient and lost when in a state of not knowing. That's why people 'believe' stuff. A belief is comforting and soothing... something you can hook your mind and identity on. A crutch.
But people often claim to know when they actually only believe. You 'believe' when you actually 'don't know'. But it's hard to admit.No, we are playing with words. We use the term believe with a variety of meanings and then finally everybody is happy he is right, just have in your head that particular meaning of "believe".
If you know of course you believe, it would be idiotic not believing something you do know.
The belief that the Qur'an speaks about is not the "faith" without proof that some people take for believing. The believing of the Qur'an is the one based on conviction. The belief that comes from having gone through several stages of questionning and enquiring and digesting and checking that allows you to be convinced of something. That I think is what the faith in Qur'an means, al yaqin.
Salaam
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Hawk99
Based on what you have outlined it would seem shirk is very easy to commit.
We?re all governed by laws/governments, everyone grew up in a culture that has customs and people add and subtract to what suits them ? consciously or not, we all want things.what you say is true, however we must understand shirk in the context
of taghut, rebellion, institutionalization, culture and on a personal level
via Quran.Have you seen he who has taken as his god his desire, and Allah has
sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his
heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ?
Then will you not be reminded?And they set up rivals to Allah, to mislead from
His path! Say ?Enjoy But certainly, your destination is the Fire!?Who are the misleaders?
Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgives
anything else, to whom He pleases; to set up partners with Allah is to
fabricate a great sin.The believing of the Qur'an is the one based on conviction. The belief that comes from having gone through several stages of questioning and enquiring and digesting and checking that allows you to be convinced of something. That I think is what the faith in Qur'an means, al yaqin.
I would say believing the Qur'an is based on evidence and not mere conviction.
peace
