iman, shirk, kufr : some new insight
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IMHO, the basic point is the value system.
NB A value system refers to how an individual or a group of individuals organize their ethical or ideological values. A well-defined value system is a moral code.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_systemIman is to believe in God's value system ; a value system that does not come from the society, but from something outside God ; a value system in which social promotion is not the goal of life ; a value system in which the ultimate reward is in the hereafter .
Iman should not be an opinion about the existence of something ; iman is the real conviction that God will, in the hereafter, requite us for our deeds.
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".Shirk is to believe in a false value system.
As an example, believing that killing female children is a good deed is shirk.
And taking one's value system from any political or religious ideology designed to serve the interests of some group of people (and not humankind) is shirk.Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.
I suggest you to read the quran with these definitions in mind. I am sure you will see it become clearer.
IMHO, everyone is able to know what is the right value system , every child come to life with this awareness.
But the majority of humans will, at some stage of our youth, refuse it, and adopt false value systems, or forget the belief in God and the hereafter to put our interests first.
Nonetheless, some people (whatever the environment in which they live, whatever the faith of their parents) will still abide by it, and do good deeds and avoid bad deeds.Peace
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Peace jm and all. Very good analysis jm.. I would add that every person at some stage in their life(through,mistake,ignorance or bad intention.) will commit shirk and/or kufr. The point is to recognise and rectify your behaviour if/when this happens.
Peace all. -
Salaamun alaikum,
Iman is to believe in God's value system
This is an unjustified simplification of al-quraan's concept of al-imaan. Al-imaan as defined by 4/136 is the complete set of beliefs and characteristics of those who have it are defined in al-quraan as well (8/2 is an example of this).
Shirk is to believe in a false value system
As well as the true one, yes. Shirik , don't forget is the sharing or partnering of something. These people have allowed other 'aaliha' /'gods' to overshadow total devotion to Allah.
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Salaamun alaikum,
Iman is to believe in God's value system
This is an unjustified simplification of al-quraan's concept of al-imaan. Al-imaan as defined by 4/136 is the complete set of beliefs and characteristics of those who have it are defined in al-quraan as well (8/2 is an example of this).
Shirk is to believe in a false value system
As well as the true one, yes. Shirik , don't forget is the sharing or partnering of something. These people have allowed other 'aaliha' /'gods' to overshadow total devotion to Allah.
Peace mquran,
Can you check out the following pages ?
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/shirk.htmI think we should not consider the 5 points in as 5 differents things, but rather as 5 aspects of the same thing Iman would be the belief that there is a hereafter where we will be judged by God (who runs it with the help of the malaika), and that we should do good deeds, i.e. act according to what the prophets have revealed in their books.
Peace
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JMI think we should not consider the 5 points in as 5 differents things, but rather as 5 aspects of the same thing Iman would be the belief that there is a hereafter where we will be judged by God (who runs it with the help of the malaika), and that we should do good deeds, i.e. act according to what the prophets have revealed in their books.
Firstly, let me thank you for a most productive discussion on the concepts of al-quraan. I've always respected your work on this forum.
I don't consider imaan in 4/136 to be believing in 5 different things but rather related concepts. If I believed in Allah, it's the Allah as defined by the Book of Allah who has sent messengers and set writs (kutub) in the world etc. However, I take issue with the use of the word 'value system' which you used earlier. I prefer 'al-imaan' which I believed is defined in al-quraan. Sorry if I sound fussy or pedantic, but to me its important to be accurate.
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Peace be upon you
I am pasting my reply to JM on another thread , Link ( http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6221.0 )on the subject "those who believe and do good works" - 262 and 321 since the reply has relevance for this thread.
Peace JM . Thank you for the PM
Peace JM
Thank you for the below link on the subject ? iman, shirk, kufr some new insight?
provided by you in reply to my simple question .http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0
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Quote JM
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".If you want to call Islam ( Deen ) is a value system rather than call it a religion it is fine. It is another way of looking at what most might agree anyway. And I guess there is no damage done to anyone by this.
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But when we expect rewards only in the hereafterCant agree with you here. Reward is in this life and the hereafter. Sometimes the punishment also is in this life and the hereafter. But if we follow Buddha we can give up this life and think of only hereafter.
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the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".No where in the Quraan God mentions this kind of basic message It took God many years to get the message through the prophet and definitely it can not be simplified in to this. This is more like Mother Theresa?s message or fits as a good Boy Scout motto. To modify this as Buddha?s basic message you got to add animals also to the basic message. Do not over simplify the message or try to define it based on a few verses in the Quraan. Sometimes it is good to analyze information but we must remember wrong analysis leads to paralysis of the system. The Gods system promotes war against aggression, capital punishment, punishment of people committing zina and theft and also the Quraan mentions the destruction of people of Noah, Hud , Salih , Shuaib, Lot and Pharaoh and many others . Why all this destruction and punishment in the earthly life if the system rewards and punishes only in the hereafter? (I guess, I do not have to mention examples of how good doers have been rewarded in this life)
Also if we are to base our lives on a value system created by us based on the principle of "act for humankind" how do I deal with issues like death penalty, abortion, consensual sex, and homosexuality?
The below 2 links mentioned by you defines Imaan and Shirk according to the Quraan . There is no dispute there. But I do not get how these 2 links support your view.
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/shirk.htmQuote
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Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.If Kufr is rejecting Gods value system that means following some other value system. Which in that case is following a false value system. False value system according to you is Shirk. By now I am bit confused by your definitions.
Still you have not answered my question.
If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?
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Peace
Beautiful post JM
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IMHO, the basic point is the value system.
NB A value system refers to how an individual or a group of individuals organize their ethical or ideological values. A well-defined value system is a moral code.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_system
Yup agree, al Quran is called as miqdarul haq (standard of thruth). It deals wil valueIman is to believe in God's value system ; a value system that does not come from the society, but from something outside God ; a value system in which social promotion is not the goal of life ; a value system in which the ultimate reward is in the hereafter .
Not agree, it must be a value system while living in the world not there after. It is a social value system not personal value system.Iman should not be an opinion about the existence of something ; iman is the real conviction that God will, in the hereafter, requite us for our deeds.
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".
A reward is the kingdom of Allah as a gift from Him since men a strugling for establishment Allah's deen in the world.Withouth taking oath and deed with Allah and His Rasul, iman means nothing.
Shirk is to believe in a false value system.
As an example, believing that killing female children is a good deed is shirk.
And taking one's value system from any political or religious ideology designed to serve the interests of some group of people (and not humankind) is shirk.Shirk is making rival dor Allah's law (QS.5/44-4
Shirk is living divided into parties and groups (QS.30/31-32).
Shirk is making 8 pleasures more preferences than surender to Allah (QS.3/14).
Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.
I suggest you to read the quran with these definitions in mind. I am sure you will see it become clearer.
Kufur is men declares to refuse Allah's law to be applicable for men's life.