Are the trads idol worshippers?
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Peace all. You could make the same analogy with the quran in the 'quran only' methodology. Quran=revered+followed but not god? And not idolised?
Peace. -
Salaam enquirer,
I think;
quran only methodology , Is not idolatory as the methodology can be a changing concept according to mens intellect with time.
Like animals the quran says are for transport and have other uses ?
Does this mean the animals are for transport only or that for the fulfilment of mens needs transport is part and parcel of the methodology to fulfil mens needs but animals can be utilised as and when needs can be fulfilled by them.
But with the trad methods nothing is allowed to change so everything is part and parcel of idolatory - unless it be allowed to progress with times/intellect or advancements.
Peace.
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peace simple and all. Yes,exellent point you make. If you allow for mens intellect/intuition and changing times/situations and contexts then i think a much clearer picture will be made of how to apply 'texts' such as the quran. The point i was trying to make is that some of the previous hindu or muslim tradition(like hajj,statues etc..) may have an underlying truth/message(similiar to the quranic message.) in them which is overlooked if taken literally.When i look at the sky it reminds me of my connection to God.I dont count looking at the sky as idol-worship.It is when certain practices are taken without meaning or context and are dogmatically followed as rituals(or ends in themselves.) that problems can occur. The quran only method also can fall prey to this mentality,eg allah or quran says so,so i will do it blindly,without recourse to experience,learning and conscience.(could be idol-worship?) So its not always the 'rituals' that are necessarily at fault,but the faulty application/interpretation of them.
Peace. -
So are they idol worshippers?
and does this ayah ( 604) apply to them?
or does it only apply to them partially?
Thanks.
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Peace simple and all. I believe you have to look at each person individually,and try to look at their intention,level of knowledge,their behaviour etc.. Even then you have to be very careful about 'branding'.(see 494.)
The verse you mentioned(60;4.) i believe applies to disliking the persons mindset and deeds,not the actual person as such.There are also degrees of idol-worship,some harmful and others much less harmful.(near irrelevent.)
Even if a person was considered an idol-worshipper(living his life according to illusions.) or kafir(not following the truth when he knows what it is.) then i would try to teach/help and/or reduce the harm that he may be causing to self and others. I would definately not hate him.The prophets had a relationship with and taught/spoke decently/respected all the people they were sent to,the prophets just disliked the mindset and deeds as 'innaproppriate' and/or harmful to society and self.
On another note;does anybody believe they have never commited shirk(idol-worship.) or kufr(disbelief.) in their life?
Peace all. -
Salaams Br,
you might be right ,in which case their is a mistranslation in the ayah - i will do a trans i think and see what it says.
Gods blessings.
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Salaam Br,
(Quran 604)
I have checked the translation of this ayah , And found it is correct ? according to my understanding.
So Abraham and his people have disowned the idol worshipping of those people and denounced and shown enimosity and hatred BUT not only of what they believe but those people ----------otherwise why only until they believe in GOD ALONE? ? I thinks.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace simple. Do you believe any true religion will encourage hate for a group of people because of mistaken beliefs? Note verses 5;2 and 5;8; 'Dont let the dislike of a people make you unjust,be just that is closer to piety'.
I think we should distinguish between hate and dislike of behaviour. Also the arabic words in verse 60;4 addwa and bagda(commonly translated as enmity and hatred.) is not necessarily correct by moral reasoning or by internal reference to the above verse i quoted. Can you hate a person and be just to them? I just personally find it hard to be just if i allow my mind to hate.(i try to overcome any notions of hate for anybody in my mind,i would rather try to rectify or defuse bad situations by respect,tolerance and wisdom while at the same time rejecting/distancing myself from bad behaviour in a pro-active way.) Also could you hate a memeber of your family because of different beliefs?
Peace all. -
Salaam Br,all,
604????..And there has appeared between us and between you a partition / separation and hatred forever until you believe in Allah Alone ????..
Is about people who are bent on idolatrous ways.
52 is about keeping hatred against people who acted against you previously but are now coming into the House.
58 is telling us don?t let your hatred drive you to injustice.
So are the three ayah?s talking about different peoples situations or occasions?
I think one has to dislike their beliefs and them (but may be not them -as you said because it is their beliefs causing the hatred) without doing injustice as 58 says , otherwise you will end up with your own kids joining them ? maybe .
God Bless you.
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Peace simple and all. I will have a closer look at the verses tommorow.
Your closing comments make a lot of sense,even if we have reason to dislike behaviour,we should not do injustice.
Peace all.