Some Of You Don't believe in "Allahu Akbar"?
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Peace tanvermed. soo much defensiveness and counter-accusation. shock Do you regard another persons opinion as valid if they state your view has caused them upset? Or are you a law unto yourself? I have addressed your behaviour,not labelled/branded you...We are all good by nature so we all can change for the better.. I am not questioning your intentions,but your end product.( ie the harmful implications.)
Take care. ) -
Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
Please consider that this is not a challenge neither a debate, my style may look that way but you will change your mind if you see me really debating someone, between me and you, there is no losers, both of us must be winners at the end
For me any believer who submit that the Quran is the word of Allah is a true believer that will have my total respect always even if I cross with them, I say they submit because they said so as I did about the Quran
Did I say it is a challenge or a debate or that I am trying to win ? shock I am just trying to have an objective discussion to help us find the truth. I have total respect for you too brother.
first of all, not all names are attributes, because Allah is a name and not an attribute, regarding the other names, yes I agree that they should not be translated into another language as the case with any name, but Allah choose these names for Himself so we know Him better, and for the native Arabic speakers they don need to translate in fact they use most Allah names preceded by Abdu as names for themselves, like Abdu Alllah, Abdul Al Rahim, Abdu Al Rahman, Abdu Al Qader, Abdu Al Qadoos, etc etc, actually you will never hear of Abdu Al Kabir, LOL, this is just a side note not an evidence of something,, therefore I believe they needed to translate it to make clearer for the non Arabic speakers
The names used by Allah in the qur'aan are also His attributes and vice versa. Al-Rahman means The Merciful; that is a name as well as an attribute of Allah meaning that He is incomparably Merciful. Similarly Al-Khaliq is a name of Allah as well as His attribute meaning that He is The Creator. Al-'Aleem is a name of Allah as well as His attribute meaning that He is All-Knower. We praise Allah and glorify Him using His attributes/names that He authorized for Himself in the qur'aan.
If they are just proper names then they should never be translated, not even to make it clearer for non Arabic speakers. For example Ahmed Bahgat will remain Ahmed Bahgat as your proper name no matter which country of the world you go to and no one has the right to translate your name to their native language while addressing you. Danish is a good name but will you like it if I start calling you Danish from now on ? NO, because you have not authorized that name for yourself.
Akbar has not been authorized by Allah for Himself in the qur'aan as an attribute or a name. When you start using akbar meaning "greater" for Allah to kabbar/glorify Him, then it becomes an adjective of Allah or in other words an ATTRIBUTE of Allah.
ATTRIBUTE an abstraction belonging to or characteristic of an entity, a quality which is considered as belonging to, or inherent in, an entity, an adjective.
we will come to the same dead end bro, Akbar is not a name, neither Arham Al Rahmin, nor Al Akram, try and see if any of these three appear in the any list of Allah names as extracted from the Quran
When you use akbar for Allah, it becomes an attribute of Allah. The names of Allah are also His attributes and vice versa, so in that case akbar will become a name of Allah, which has not been authorized by Allah in the qur'aan for Himself, by not using it for Himself.
According to 963, your Rabb is Al-Akram, so that makes Al-Akram His attribute, and thus His name. Similarly Arham Al-Rahemeen is His attribute according to the qur'aan, and thus His name too. Just like Al-Raheem and Al-Khaliq and Al-'Aleem are His attributes and also His names.
now the important question really, can you count Allah names in the Quran and be 100% sure that this is the right count for His names?
I can?t, but I know when I tell someone to Tukabbir Allah, it means to say Allah Akbar, like when I say to someone Sabbih Allah, he/she should say Subhana Allah, this is all about glorifying God, those who say it is wrong are really twisting it very bad to make their argument look good
Subhana allah has been used by Allah MULTIPLE TIMES in the qur'aan (12108, 2122, 2391, 278, 2868, 3017, 37159, 5243, 5923, without counting subhana rabbi or subhana rabbana). Isn't it a little strange that Allah has not used "Allahu akbar" ONCE for Himself in the qur'aan ??? shock
Please don't conjecture about what Allah wants us to say when he asks us to Tukabbir Allah. IMHO the twisting is not being done by me !
Your argument that if it was not said about Allah by Himself in the Quran then it can?t be said, well the intention is to glorify him, and to nukabir Him for the great favours He gave us, like Al Anaam that we eat and this an example of when we should say Allahu Akabar when we slaughter these Annam,
Yes, the intention is to glorify Him, but how can we glorify Him by an attribute that is not authorized or even mentioned in the qur'aan by Allah for Himself ???
Please post the verse that asks us to "nukabir" Allah when eating al-anaam, or when slaughtering anaam. It doesnt say to "nukabir" Him but to mention His name.
54 So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.
6118 So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed believe in His revelations.
6119 And why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has fully detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to?
6121 And do not eat from that which God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
2234 And for every nation We have made a rite that they may mention God's name over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So your god is One god, so to Him surrender and give good tidings to those who obey.
2236 And the plump animals for offering, We have made them for you as decrees from God, in them is goodness for you. So mention God's name upon them while being orderly, so once their body becomes still, then eat from them and give food to the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful.
Where does it say "nukabir" Allah in these verses related to al-anaam and slaughtering al-anaam ? I don't see it.
Now the prophet never said to not to say Allah Akbar and this is enough for me, it does not even matter now if he said to say it because what it matters for me that He never said not to say it
How do you know with 100 % certainty that Prophet Muhammad never said not to say Allahu akbar ? Allah is clearly telling us not to create names for Him that he has not authorized, and has NEVER used akbar for Himself in the qur'aan, isn't that enough ?
because He told us to Nukabbir Him many times, I?m speaking English dear brother,
How do you Tukbbir Allah, do you mind if I ask?
I have answered that several times before in my posts. Let me remind you of just 2 times I have already answered this
All attributes of Allah that He used for Himself in the qur'aan are also His names, and we can "kabbir" Him (glorify Him) by using any of those beautiful names.
Posted Thu Apr 06, 2006 1028 pmNow to KABBAR Him (magnify Him), you can do that by saying Allahu Al-Kabeer because Al-Kabeer used with Allah has an absolute meaning and is the same as magnifying Him.
Posted Thu Apr 06, 2006 1131 amI am speaking English too, but maybe you are not reading my posts in their entirety ? No wonder you are not getting my reasoning. wink
Well, of course He didn?t, but He never restricted us to what is in the Quran to glorify and Nukabbir Him, in fact He left it open big deal to the prophet, and I believe this is another serious test for the believers
Please prove what you are saying from the qur'aan. Allah clearly advises us in the qur'aan not to create names for Him that he has not authorized. Did Allah forget to mention such an important attribute of His in the qur'aan ?
well, this can be classified Ahsan Al Qawal about Allah, Allah wants us to know Him anyway, and He called Himself Kabir, so there is no reason for the believers to believe that He is also Akbar, like Karim and Akram, or Rahim and Arham
Allah mentions Karim and Akram, and Rahim and Arham Al-Rahemeen, doesn't it strike you as odd that he doesn't mention akbar for Himself ? Did He forget ?
The underlined portion of your quote above actually supports what I have been saying all along that there is no reason for the believers to believe that Allah is akbar (you need to watch what you are saying bro). wink
Bro, you have totally misunderstood 5323, firstly the verse above is not general it is about 3 specific names that the Kufar gave to God, these names are Allati, Al Oza and Manah
Allah is giving the examples of those three names. The general message of that verse is not to make up ANY name for Allah that He has not authorized for Himself.
therefore when He told us to Nukabbir Him, He gave us an authority to say Allah Akbar
Pure conjecture, unsupported by the qur'aan. 771 clearly tells us not to create any names for Him that He has not authorized for Himself. How does Allah authorize a name or attribute for Himself ? By using it for Himself in His revelations.
Firstly the word Akbar is similar to kabir and even has more superior meaning
Your personal opinion does not count. We need qur'aanic proof and support from qur'aan.
Secondly Allah has sent us an authority by asking us to Nukabbir Allah especially when we slaughter the Annam
I already addressed this above. We should refrain from attributing something in qur'aan to Allah what He never said in the qur'aan, otherwise it becomes inventing a lie against Allah.
I understand, but he meant the sun was God, because it is Akbar from the moon
Abraham never used akbar for Allah.
tanveermd wrote
Most of Prophet Muhammad's so called history/"hadeeth" is unverifiable hearsay/rumor/conjecture/fabrication by other people and falsely attributed to him. The only true hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad is in the qur'aan itself.did I use it as an evidence?
Yes you did and I quote
and sure the prophet history records confirm that the prophet said it zillions of times in his Salat and during scarifying the Annam, and sometimes while just sitting in peace.
In fact the prophet himself said that there will be many things we will hear about him that he said while he never said it, so they asked him how they can authenticate it, he told then compare it with the Quran, if it passes the Quran, then I said it and this makes great sense to me
Please use the same authenticating process for this topic also. Allah never uses akbar for Himself in the qur'aan, thereby does not authorize it for Himself; so obviously all the "hadeeth" mentioning akbar for Allah have to be lies/conjectures/fabrications.
excuse me, comparing does not mean that the exact words will be in both, that does not make any sense to me, because we will only need one copy only, the prophet was explaining the Quran as he was ordered to do by Allah
The Prophet followed only the qur'aan for explanation
1015 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!"
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Peace enquirer,
Do you regard another persons opinion as valid if they state your view has caused them upset?
What have I said against you that has upset you ?
I have claimed that you quote verses stating that believing in names other than the ones you feel god has authorised is shirk.
When did I say "believing in names other than the ones I FEEL" ? Please do not misquote me bro.
Correct me if im wrong,but you have a full thread on 'quran rejectors'. You both disregard 2;62 and 5;69.
I already replied to this accusation of yours in that thread and I showed you that I did not disregard 262 and 569. Please keep your posts in this thread relevant to this thread.
If you want me to believe that you are not implying this attribution of shirk to others,nor ab
I made a general statement expressing my understanding and never implied that a particular person is committing shirk.
If you dont mean to imply to others that they are commiting shirk,then i suggest you state these interpretations are your own opinions and not necessarily allahs.
I never stated my understanding and then said it is Allah's. Another accusation. What is your problem bro ? did not have enough sleep ?
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Peace enquirer,
And also be more explicit in that you dont think someone who believes contrary to you is condemned by your view of quranic verses. To be honest you sound like you are back-tracking from your implications
I never implied anything about anyone, just made a general statement about my understanding. You falsely accuse me of doing something and then tell me not to do it ? You need to chill out bro wink
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Peace KGB,
Tanveer MD are you the same Tanveer MD of Dr. Shabbir forum.
Who is Dr. Shabbir and where is his forum ?
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Peace tanvermed. What has caused me too respond to you in a 'sharp' way is that you and ab(and others.) think you can make people into mushriks or say their behaviour is shirk just by your 'short-sighted' views of a few verses. You havent upset me personally that much,but in the cause of justice i have to stand up for the people who are being accused of shirk for not believing in the physical book called quran,or not believing yours or abs' views.(or other 'quran only people'.) Some sunnis say the exact same thing; you can only believe in our interpretations(ie muhammeds interpretation of the quran.) otherwise you have rejected the quran and sunnah and islam.Dont create your own questionable hadith please. I have quoted you 2;62,5;69,17;36,4;94 etc...
I for one do not take the quran as my idol. I will leave you to dwell on your posts..Its no suprise people reject the quran when interpretations like yours and abs(and others.) are touted as reasonable. I wish you peace,you have expressed your views,as have i,i dont feel the need or benefit in long drawn out discussions which can lead to time-wasting or bad-feelings. take it easy. D -
Peace enquirer,
you and ab(and others.) think you can make people into mushriks or say their behaviour is shirk just by your 'short-sighted' views of a few verses.
Another false accusation, just look at your own attitude and false accusations of others. Not a good thing bro. All I remember saying is that if one takes someone other than Allah as source of guidance, or claims an entity other than Allah being of an exact similar nature as Allah, that is setting up partners with Allah, which is shirk. That is my understanding. How do you disagree with that ? When I make a general statement like that, I am just expressing my understanding and not implying that a particular person is mushrik.
i have to stand up for the people who are being accused of shirk for not believing in the physical book called quran,or not believing yours or abs' views.(or other 'quran only people'.)
Another false accusation about me accusing others. Not good.
Some sunnis say the exact same thing; you can only believe in our interpretations(ie muhammeds interpretation of the quran.) otherwise you have rejected the quran
When did I say that you can believe only in my interpretations otherwise you have rejected qur'aan ? Yet another false accusation.
I for one do not take the quran as my idol. I will leave you to dwell on your posts..
Now who is implying who of idolatry ? lol
Its no suprise people reject the quran when interpretations like yours and abs(and others.) are touted as reasonable.
I am just stating my understandings to discuss a certain topic with the objective of finding the truth, not imposing them on others or forcing them to accept them. When did I tout my understanding ? Another accusation.
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Peace all,
I apologize if anyone thought that i was implying them to be mushrik or rejecter. I was trying to make general statements to put forth my understanding, which I admit can be flawed, for the purpose of having a discussion to find the truth about certain matters. I realize that I should be very careful and not use words that might cause a misunderstanding of me accusing someone of committing shirk. I will try to be extra careful in the future about that. Sometimes the word "you" is used to make a general statement but might cause misunderstanding that someone else is being accused of something. The words "we" or "one" would be better.
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Salam Tanveer, all,
Salaamun alaikum Myr,
Thank you sister Myr for correcting my understanding. You have a point. However, instead of Allahu akbaru kabeera it should be Allahu akbaru al-kubbar to be on the same level as arhamu al-rahemeen. My revised understanding would be as follows
........Hence it follows that Allah can be compared in terms of a particular attribute but INCOMPARABLE OVERALL.
Sorry for the late reply but I just wanted to say that Allah akbaru kabeer is nothing else than God is greater than great. What you suggested is also correct and means God is greater than the great(s). I think what matters to me is to make sense of and pay close attention to things we utter. I caught myself several times in the past uttering things that don't make sense and to a certain extent may sound disrescpectful to God the All-Mighty. For instance saying my lord I need this or that, as if HE does not know what I really need so these past few years I am much more carefull with what I utter. And God the All-Mighty knows best.
Peace. Myr. -
Peace Myr, Ahmed, all,
I understand that but I just wanted to say that you have no 100% guarantee that the prophet said it-). I am very careful with that Brother because I became very very allergic to anything and everything associated or attributed to the prophet-). There are all kinds of things associated to him and even that degrades him and I think the man deserves our respect as to not continue to attribute to him things we have no knowledge of except that imam X said this and imam Y narrated that-). Poor man, even 14 centuries later, and we continue to put words in his mouth-).
Well said sister Myr.
When we are asked by Allah to do something in "al-qur'aan", we submit by doing it according to how Allah tells us to do it in "al-qur'aan" and authorizes it in "al-qur'aan". We cannot INVENT our own way which is not authorized by Allah. Remember, relevant to our guidance, "al-qur'aan" is fully detailed, contains every example, is complete, and Allah does not neglect anything from it, nor does He forget.
413 A Scripture whose verses are explained in detail (fussilat), a compilation in Arabic for a people who know.
Allah asks us to "nuqim al-salat" (uphold salat), "nusabih Allah" (glorify Allah), "nahmadu Allah" (praise Allah), "nashkur Allah" (thank Allah), "nukabir Allah" (magnify/glorify Allah).
We "nuqim al-salat" by turning towards Allah, reciting and understanding "al-qur'aan", thereby hearing it and then humbly obeying what Allah tells us in "al-qur'aan"
We dont "nuqim al-salat" just by saying "aqeem al-salat".
We "nusabih Allah" by saying the beautiful names of Allah mentioned in al-qur'aan. We can also say or "subhana Allah", as those phrases are mentioned in al-qur'aan.
We cannot "nusabih Allah" by saying names/attributes not mentioned by Allah for Himself in al-qur'aan.
We "nahmadu Allah" by saying "alhamdu lillahi rabbi al-'alameena" and also by saying His beautiful names mentioned in al-qur'aan.
We cannot "nahmadu Allah" by saying names/attributes not mentioned by Allah for Himself in al-qur'aan.
We "nashkur Allah" by saying as that is how He tells us in al-qur'aan.
We cannot "nashkur Allah" by saying "Allahu Shakir" or "Allahu Shakoor" as that will be absurd. We can however "nusabih Allah" or "nahmadu Allah" by saying "Allahu Shakir" or "Allahu Shakoor".
We "nukabir Allah" by saying His beautiful names, as His beautiful names mention His ABSOLUTE attributes that no one else can have to the same degree. We can also "nukabir Allah" by saying "Allahu Akram" or "Allahu Arham Al-Rahemeen" as these superlative attributes are mentioned by Allah for Himself in al-qur'aan.
We cannot "nukabir Allah" by inventing an attribute/name for Allah, not mentioned in al-qur'aan, thereby not authorized by Him. When someone says "Allahu akbar" then "akbar" becomes an adjective or an attribute of Allah, which is not authorized by Allah in al-qur'aan.
"akbar" is a superlative.
SUPERLATIVE Expressing the highest or lowest degree of the quality, manner, etc., denoted by an adjective or an adverb.
ADJECTIVE Added to a substantive as an attribute; a word that expresses an attribute of something
NAME A descriptive or qualifying appellation or attribute given to a person or thing, on account of a character or acts. Example His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father.
By using "akbar" in "Allahu akbar" it becomes an attribute/name of Allah.
Allah NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER mentions "akbar" to describe Himself or as an attribute for Himself in al-qur'aan. Did Allah forget ?
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Peace,
If I may add
Quran is a book to clarify two main points (Principles)
1- Clarifying , The Oneness of the SOURCE, The oneness and purposefullness of creation. where it comes from and where it is headed.
2- Clarifying, the seriouseness of our responsibility to DO GOOD and To be GOOD. Compassion and Justice are the two key words.OF course also there are many instructions in how to do things!
As we can see in many countries people follow the instruction in the way that they understand it and forget about the MAIN SUBJECT ; the principles.
SO Believing the word of GOD should be TOP-DOWN. and not Bottom-up.
So NOT from instructions to principles but from principles then instructions.And if we see a contradiction between the principles and instructions then our understanding of either or both of them is wrong.
peace,
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Thanks brother tanveermd
I have noticed that you are mixing the tasbih with zikr Allah by His authorised names, do you think that the two actions are the same?
But I agree that Nusabih (first person) means to say ?Subhana Allah?, or ?Subahnak Allahum?, or ?Subhan Rabi Al Azim?, or ?Subhan Rabi Al Aala, or ?Subhanak Ini Konta Min Al Zalimin? and possibly a couple mopore that I'm not aware of right now
I?m just looking at you comment bit by bit so i don?t get confused, so i will reply to another boit later on, sorry
Salam
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Peace brother Ahmed,
I have noticed that you are mixing the tasbih with zikr Allah by His authorised names, do you think that the two actions are the same?
Why can't we praise Allah (nusabih Allah) by saying His beautiful names ?
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Peace brother Ahmed,
I have noticed that you are mixing the tasbih with zikr Allah by His authorised names, do you think that the two actions are the same?
Why can't we praise Allah (nusabih Allah) by saying His beautiful names ?
Peace mate
I see it for the following reason
When he told us to "Nusabih Him", (first person), He never told us to use His names, rather what we say
I'm trying to apply the Quran restrictly as you are suggesting regarding Nukabir Him order
what I'm trying to set is this
I'm sure > Nusabih is not like Nazkur, is not like Nashkur, is not like Naddu, is not like Nukabir
so please can you tell me how we can Nukabir Allah while what we do should be different to the other required actions?
Salam
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Peace brother Ahmed,
so please can you tell me how we can Nukabir Allah while what we do should be different to the other required actions?
We can "nukabir Allah" by saying "Allahu Akram" or "Allahu Arham Al-Rahemeen".
Nukabir is to magnify and the superlatives "Akram" and "Arham Al-Rahemeen" magnify Allah, and is the qur'aanic way.