Some Of You Don't believe in "Allahu Akbar"?
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Salam AhmadBahgat, all,
Peace all,
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When you say Allah is Akbar meaning He is greater, you are using a comparative word, directly comparing Allah with some other being of an EXACT SIMILAR NATURE, thereby committing shirk/idolatry. Allah is greater than what ? than another god ? You can use a comparative word only for two objects of an EXACT SIMILAR NATURE. For example you cannot say that an apple is greater than an orange or the color red is greater than the color blue. You can however say that 100 is greater than 50. Allah is INCOMPARABLY GREAT.Now to KABBAR Him (magnify Him), you can do that by saying Allahu Al-Kabeer because Al-Kabeer used with Allah has an absolute meaning and is the same as magnifying Him. The only problem is when you say Allahu Akbar you are implying comparison of Allah with a being of EXACT SIMILAR NATURE, which becomes idolatry.
Please answer a simple question Allah is greater than what ?
I think from a language perspective, Brother Tanveed has a point here. For me to consider it correct, someone has either to say Allah al-kabir or
Allah akbaru kabeera like ar'hamu al-raheemen or al-hamdoulillah hamdan , see verse 434 for what I am trying to say. As for takbeer, my undestanding is one way of praising HIM is by calling on HIM by HIS attributes or by using a complete sentence to describe one attribute, for instance al-rahman, al-raheem or Oh you my Lord the more merciful than anyone who is merciful (ya ar'hamu al-raheemeen) see verses 7151, 1264, and 1292.
I disagree with Tanveeer understanding of "comparaison" and similar nature and the proof is the example given to us in verses 7151, 1264, and 1292. Is saying 'ar'hamu al-rahemeen" (more merciful than those merciful) shirk? who are then "al-rahemeen" (plural of raheem)? I don't think it is shirk otherwise the Quran would not have mentioned those examples. My understanding of all the comparaisons made in Quran is precisely to assert that regardless of of any attempt to compare, and what we may think of someone or claim as vertue, there is nothing comparable to HIM, HE is above anything and everything.Having said that I will stick to al-Kabeer and all HIS attributes in Quran-).
And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
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Salaamun alaikum Myr,
I disagree with Tanveeer understanding of "comparaison" and similar nature and the proof is the example given to us in verses 7151, 1264, and 1292. Is saying 'ar'hamu al-rahemeen" (more merciful than those merciful) shirk? who are then "al-rahemeen" (plural of raheem)? I don't think it is shirk otherwise the Quran would not have mentioned those examples.
Thank you sister Myr for correcting my understanding. You have a point. However, instead of Allahu akbaru kabeera it should be Allahu akbaru al-kubbar to be on the same level as arhamu al-rahemeen. My revised understanding would be as follows
When one uses the phrase Allahu akbar meaning that Allah is greater thus comparing Allah to something else, without also mentioning ones with similar attribute (attribute of greatness) then it would not be right. We can only compare one attribute of Allah and not the whole of Allah. So I agree that one can say Allahu akbaru al-kubbar, because then we are saying that Allah is greater than all the great in the attribute of greatness. If we blanketly say Allahu akbar that will imply comparing Allah with another god because we are not mentioning who He is greater than in the attribute of greatness.
Similarly we cannot say Allahu Arham, Allah is more merciful, because again that will imply the existence of another god and that Allah is more merciful than another god. However when one says Allahu arham al-rahemeen then one is saying that Allah is more merciful than all the merciful in the attribute of mercy. So we are just comparing one attribute and not the whole God.
Hence it follows that Allah can be compared in terms of a particular attribute but INCOMPARABLE OVERALL.
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Peace all,
Any way Al-Kabeer is authorized by Allah as one of His names in the qur'aan but clearly Akbar is not.Peace bro
The sunni said there are 99 names based on a hadith for the prophet, in this hadith even the prophet didn?t say what are the 99 names, all he said that there are 99 names in the Quran, if anyone manages to find them, He will be sent to Jannah, now I don?t take this hadith seriously indeed because it lacks a bit of common sense, neither I take any specific number as His names total, you know there are others who counted over 112 names from the Quran.
That description of Akbar was not made up by a bunch of people, in fact Abraham ?the father of all Muslims? said it himself in the Quran, and sure the prophet history records confirm that the prophet said it zillions of times in his Salat and during scarifying the Annam, and sometimes while just sitting in peace.
And because the Quran told us to Nukabir Allah, it simply means to say and believe that Allah Akbar than any thing.
In Arabic though, if we remove the second party using something called Balagha, it simply means Allah Akbar than any thing, without saying ?than anything?
Not sure how many times I have to say this bro?
well what you missed here that Akbar is not a name
when Allah told us about His names, He told us it is up to us to CALL "NADOO" Him using any of these names
Now He told us something else, which is "Nukabbir Him", this is not like calling Him with any of His names, it is an order to NuKabbir, NOT TO CALL HIM like "Da'wa" with His names
now to Nukabbir, it means we say Allah Akabar, and Akbar is not a name from his names
therefore you have n point to say, saying Allah Akbar is Kufr
When you say Allah is Akbar meaning He is greater, you are using a comparative word, directly comparing Allah with some other being of an EXACT SIMILAR NATURE,
Well, Abraham and prophet Mohammad said the same, as well we didn?t compare with any thing because there is no second party after Akbar, Allah Akabr is a very sophisticated Arabic sentence that can only be said about Allah without the need to imagine what the other party is, this is called Balagha in Arabic
Now for the similar nature point you raised, here is a surprise for you
Moses prayed "O my Lord! forgive me and my brother! admit us to Thy mercy! for Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"
(151)
-> See, ? ?, i.e. ? the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!?, Would that be a nature comparison bro?
Also mate, do you think Moses committed blasphemy?
Well, it is not just Moses, here is prophet Jacob doing the same thing
He said "Shall I trust you with him with any result other than when I trusted you with his brother aforetime? But Allah is the best to take care (of him), and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"
(64)
Well, here is prophet Job (Ayub) doing the same thing
And Ayub, when he cried to his Lord, (saying) Harm has afflicted me, and Thou art the most Merciful of the merciful."
(83)
It seems prophet Joseph did the same exact thing
He said "This day let no reproach be (cast) on you Allah will forgive you, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!
(92)
Now it is clear from the above that these prophets ?Moses, Jacob, Ayub and Joseph? used the word ?Arham? to compare Allah with the ones who show mercy, now, those ones MUST be humans, because I don?t think they meant those other gods who show mercy, agree?
If you agree then those prophets according to your flawed logic has committed blasphemy, agree?
I don?t think you will agree on that, therefore your logic is wrong, now here is another surprise to you
You say that Al Kabir is a name of the names of Allah, which I agree, but you also say that to say Allah Akbar should be considered blasphemy because we should not compare Him with anything, ok, I?m sure you will agree that Al Karim is a name of Allah?s names, so based on your logic if I say Allah Akram, it must be blasphemy because I?m comparing Allah with something that I never mentioned in the sentence?, well, here is Allah telling Mohammad to commit this blasphemy
Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,
(3)
-> See, under your flawed logic, 963 is a clear cut blasphemy
thereby committing shirk/idolatry.
Yeh sure, like Moses, Jacob, Ayub and Jospeh who physically compared Allah with humans regarding Rahma, ?Arham Al Rahmeen?, and please have a look at 963, I guess it must be a big surprise to you
Allah is greater than what ?
than any other thing physical or not physical, that is the beauty of Balagha,
than another god ?
did we say that?
You can use a comparative word only for two objects of an EXACT SIMILAR NATURE. For example you cannot say that an apple is greater than an orange or the color red is greater than the color blue. You can however say that 100 is greater than 50. Allah is INCOMPARABLY GREAT.
Then how come Moses, Jacob, Ayub and Jospeph compared Allah with humans regarding the Rahmah ?Mercy??
Now to KABBAR Him (magnify Him), you can do that by saying Allahu Al-Kabeer because Al-Kabeer used with Allah has an absolute meaning and is the same as magnifying Him. The only problem is when you say Allahu Akbar you are implying comparison of Allah with a being of EXACT SIMILAR NATURE, which becomes idolatry.
I think you lack the Arabic language bro, this is not a shame, I admit that I lack the English language, at least I admitted it and I will welcome other who are good in English to teach me and fix my mistakes, unlike you
Please answer a simple question Allah is greater than what ?
A answered that question earlier, and please it is your turn to answer a couple of complicated questions
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How come Moses Moses, Jacob, Ayub and Jospeph compared Allah with humans regarding the Rahmah ?Mercy??
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What Allah was comparing Himself with when He said to Mohammad, ?Iqra Wa Rabuka Al Akram??
Salam
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Salam AhmadBahgat, all,
I think from a language perspective, Brother Tanveed has a point here. For me to consider it correct, someone has either to say Allah al-kabir or
Allah akbaru kabeera like ar'hamu al-raheemen or al-hamdoulillah hamdan , see verse 434 for what I am trying to say. As for takbeer, my undestanding is one way of praising HIM is by calling on HIM by HIS attributes or by using a complete sentence to describe one attribute, for instance al-rahman, al-raheem or Oh you my Lord the more merciful than anyone who is merciful (ya ar'hamu al-raheemeen) see verses 7151, 1264, and 1292.
I disagree with Tanveeer understanding of "comparaison" and similar nature and the proof is the example given to us in verses 7151, 1264, and 1292. Is saying 'ar'hamu al-rahemeen" (more merciful than those merciful) shirk? who are then "al-rahemeen" (plural of raheem)? I don't think it is shirk otherwise the Quran would not have mentioned those examples. My understanding of all the comparaisons made in Quran is precisely to assert that regardless of of any attempt to compare, and what we may think of someone or claim as vertue, there is nothing comparable to HIM, HE is above anything and everything.Having said that I will stick to al-Kabeer and all HIS attributes in Quran-).
And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
Salam sister
I hope you give me your opinion regarding my comment to brother Tanveermd
Salam
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Peace tanvermed. Brother,ab has conclusively proved his point. Myr corrected you,and you seemed to resort to intellectual gymnastics to re- justify your point. Its obvious that in the quran allah is comparing his mercy with that of others,ab showed the word akram as well used in the quran thus refuting your view that allah cant be akbar. In the past people have accused others of shirk over this pedantic matter of; 'can you say allah hu akbar'.Its the intention that counts. I suggest all people thoroughly research their topic before they accuse others of shirk and blasphemy.And maybe apologies/a change of attitude would be recommended to all that accuse others of shirk on trivial or unclear matters.
Peace all. -
Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
Thank you for the verses clarifying the issue of comparison, and correcting my understanding. As I have mentioned to you before that my understanding is not perfect and I am quick to change my understanding if given an irrefutable proof from the truth. I admit that I was wrong in stating that Allah's attributes cannot be compared to someone else's attributes in view of 963 and the other relevant verses that you quoted.
However, my point that we cannot use akbar for Allah still stands shock and I still have solid refutations based on the qur'aan against your point of view of akbar being ok to be used for Allah. I will divide my post into several points.
well what you missed here that Akbar is not a name
when Allah told us about His names, He told us it is up to us to CALL "NADOO" Him using any of these names
All names of Allah used by Him for Himself in the qur'aan are actually His attributes and vice versa all attributes used by Him for Himself are His names, otherwise if they are just proper names of Allah and not attributes then they should not be translated at all into any other language. From this it follows that if akbar is an attribute of Allah, it would also be His name.
208 God, there is no god but He, to Him are the beautiful names.
738 And remember the name of your Lord, and devote to Him completely.
Please note that the word used here is "othkur" meaning recall/remember/mention and not "nadoo", so we don't just call Allah by His names but also remember/recall/mention (othkur) His name.
- Allah has NEVER used akbar for Himself in the qur'aan. Just like Akram and Arham al-rahemeen are attributes/names of Allah, akbar, if used by Allah for Himself, would be an attribute/name too. He used Al-Kabeer, and Al-Mutakabbar for Himself derived from the root "KBR" but NEVER akbar, so how can we use that attribute for Him ? Did Allah FORGET to use that attribute for Himself in the qur'aan ?
Ok I agree that Arham al-rahemeen and Akram are His attributes according to the qur'aan so can be used to magnify/glorify Him as these attributes have been authorized by Him, but THE FACT STILL REMAINS THAT AKBAR HAS NEVER BEEN USED BY ALLAH FOR HIMSELF AS HIS ATTRIBUTE IN THE QUR'AAN. Therefore, Akbar is an attribute that has not been authorized by Him for Himself, so we cannot use that attribute to call Him or to magnify/glorify Him.
Therefore according to the following verses, we cannot use akbar as a name/attribute of Allah
5323 These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. God never authorized such. They only follow conjecture, and personal desire, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
5328 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
771 He said "An affliction and wrath shall befall you from your Lord. Do you argue with me over names which you and your fathers have created with no authority being sent down by God? Wait then, and I will wait with you."
1241 "What you serve besides Him are nothing but names which you have created you and your fathers, God did not send down any authority for such. The judgment is for none but God.
Akbar, obviously, has been created by "you and your fathers" for Allah, as it has NEVER been used by Allah for Himself in the qur'aan, therefore, has not been authorized by Him as such. You have not been able to refute this point yet.
That description of Akbar was not made up by a bunch of people, in fact Abraham ?the father of all Muslims? said it himself in the Quran, and sure the prophet history records confirm that the prophet said it zillions of times in his Salat and during scarifying the Annam, and sometimes while just sitting in peace.
Abraham said it for the sun, not for Allah. Please do not say something that the qur'aan does not say and then attribute it to the qur'aan. That is inventing a lie against Allah.
Most of Prophet Muhammad's so called history/"hadeeth" is unverifiable hearsay/rumor/conjecture/fabrication by other people and falsely attributed to him. The only true hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad is in the qur'aan itself.
By saying that Prophet Muhammad said something when one has no AUTHENTIC AND VERIFIABLE proof that he said so, is inventing lies against the Prophet. If Bukhari and company and other people say that Prophet Muhammad said something DOES NOT 100% PROVE that Prophet said it too; they could be lying and fabricating things about the Prophet and falsely attributing it to him.
The only way we can determine if a so called "hadeeth" is 100 % true, is by comparing it with the qur'aan. When we compare all the so called "hadeeth" about akbar being an attribute of Allah with the qur'aan, we find no mention of akbar as an attribute used by Allah for Himself in the qur'aan, so all those "hadeeth" about this subject have to be lies/conjectures/fabrications and can be safely thrown in the trash bin. By obeying the liars, one is not obeying Allah and His messenger, but obeying the liars, which is setting up partners with Allah.
6112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
5323 These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. God never authorized such. They only follow conjecture, and personal desire, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
5328 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
And because the Quran told us to Nukabir Allah, it simply means to say and believe that Allah Akbar than any thing.
Allah does not say "nukabir" but says "fakabbir" (743), "tukabbaroo" (2237), and "kabbirhu" (17111). Please refrain from saying that the qur'aan told us to "nukabir", when it does not.
You keep saying that akbar is not Allah's name but an attribute. All attributes of Allah that He used for Himself in the qur'aan are also His names, and we can "kabbir" Him (glorify Him) by using any of those beautiful names. Akbar, however, is NOT ONE OF THEM. Allah has made the qur'aan fully detailed, and complete, and has given every kind of example in it relevant to our guidance; THEN HOW DID HE FORGET TO MENTION THE ATTRIBUTE OF AKBAR FOR HIMSELF IN THE QUR'AAN ?
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
How/where do we find the beautiful names of Allah ? From/in the qur'aan, of course. Is akbar in the qur'aan as an attribute/name of Allah...... NO.
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Peace tanvermed. I find it amazing you are still justifying this pedantic discussion. You are still quoting verses to downgrade and insult peoples faith,and justify your own viewpoint.Whats the point in discussing when emotions are used instead of proper reason? Ab has shown that in the quran it mentions fakabbir,tukabbaroo and kabirhu. Arent these commands/recommendations to kabbir allah? Wouldnt one way of kabbir allah be covered by saying allah hu akbar? I find this whole discussion pedantic,immature and petty....the only reason i have posted now is to ask you to think about branding people with your interpretation of the verses of the quran over issues that are either linguistic,nit-picking,small, or unclear.This is just like sectarian/egotistical pettiness.
check out 4;94. Chill out. We shouldnt take ourselves too seriously,we all make mistakes,humility and humbleness are beautiful virtues.
Peace. -
Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
Salam mate
Thank you for the verses clarifying the issue of comparison, and correcting my understanding. As I have mentioned to you before that my understanding is not perfect and I am quick to change my understanding if given an irrefutable proof from the truth. I admit that I was wrong in stating that Allah's attributes cannot be compared to someone else's attributes in view of 963 and the other relevant verses that you quoted.
Please consider that this is not a challenge neither a debate, my style may look that way but you will change your mind if you see me really debating someone, between me and you, there is no losers, both of us must be winners at the end
For me any believer who submit that the Quran is the word of Allah is a true believer that will have my total respect always even if I cross with them, I say they submit because they said so as I did about the Quran
However, my point that we cannot use akbar for Allah still stands shock ) and I still have solid refutations based on the qur'aan against your point of view of akbar being ok to be used for Allah. I will divide my post into several points.
Ok bro lets; see what you have this time
well what you missed here that Akbar is not a name
when Allah told us about His names, He told us it is up to us to CALL "NADOO" Him using any of these names
All names of Allah used by Him for Himself in the qur'aan are actually His attributes and vice versa all attributes used by Him for Himself are His names, otherwise if they are just proper names of Allah and not attributes then they should not be translated at all into any other language. From this it follows that if akbar is an attribute of Allah, it would also be His name.
first of all, not all names are attributes, because Allah is a name and not an attribute, regarding the other names, yes I agree that they should not be translated into another language as the case with any name, but Allah choose these names for Himself so we know Him better, and for the native Arabic speakers they don need to translate in fact they use most Allah names preceded by Abdu as names for themselves, like Abdu Alllah, Abdul Al Rahim, Abdu Al Rahman, Abdu Al Qader, Abdu Al Qadoos, etc etc, actually you will never hear of Abdu Al Kabir, LOL, this is just a side note not an evidence of something,, therefore I believe they needed to translate it to make clearer for the non Arabic speakers
208 God, there is no god but He, to Him are the beautiful names.
738 And remember the name of your Lord, and devote to Him completely.
Please note that the word used here is "othkur" meaning recall/remember/mention and not "nadoo", so we don't just call Allah by His names but also remember/recall/mention (othkur) His name.
Yeh, I agree
- Allah has NEVER used akbar for Himself in the qur'aan. Just like Akram and Arham al-rahemeen are attributes/names of Allah, akbar, if used by Allah for Himself, would be an attribute/name too.
we will come to the same dead end bro, Akbar is not a name, neither Arham Al Rahmin, nor Al Akram, try and see if any of these three appear in the any list of Allah names as extracted from the Quran
now the important question really, can you count Allah names in the Quran and be 100% sure that this is the right count for His names?
I can?t, but I know when I tell someone to Tukabbir Allah, it means to say Allah Akbar, like when I say to someone Sabbih Allah, he/she should say Subhana Allah, this is all about glorifying God, those who say it is wrong are really twisting it very bad to make their argument look good
Your argument that if it was not said about Allah by Himself in the Quran then it can?t be said, well the intention is to glorify him, and to nukabir Him for the great favours He gave us, like Al Anaam that we eat and this an example of when we should say Allahu Akabar when we slaughter these Annam,
We still say Allah Kabir, but Akbar or kabir does not mean in any way as of size, rather it means anything indeed, is is greater in all aspects,
You also wrote off the zillions of records about the prophet saying it, while I agree there are many of these records that are corrupt, many about Salat are not corrupt and the Quran told us what the prophet gives you take it and what he prohibit you from, stop doing it
Now the prophet never said to not to say Allah Akbar and this is enough for me, it does not even matter now if he said to say it because what it matters for me that He never said not to say it
He used Al-Kabeer, and Al-Mutakabbar for Himself derived from the root "KBR" but NEVER akbar, so how can we use that attribute for Him ?
because He told us to Nukabbir Him many times, I?m speaking English dear brother,
How do you Tukbbir Allah, do you mind if I ask?
Did Allah FORGET to use that attribute for Himself in the qur'aan ?
Well, of course He didn?t, but He never restricted us to what is in the Quran to glorify and Nukabbir Him, in fact He left it open big deal to the prophet, and I believe this is another serious test for the believers
Ok I agree that Arham al-rahemeen and Akram are His attributes according to the qur'aan so can be used to magnify/glorify Him as these attributes have been authorized by Him, but THE FACT STILL REMAINS THAT AKBAR HAS NEVER BEEN USED BY ALLAH FOR HIMSELF AS HIS ATTRIBUTE IN THE QUR'AAN. Therefore, Akbar is an attribute that has not been authorized by Him for Himself, so we cannot use that attribute to call Him or to magnify/glorify Him.
well, this can be classified Ahsan Al Qawal about Allah, Allah wants us to know Him anyway, and He called Himself Kabir, so there is no reason for the believers to believe that He is also Akbar, like Karim and Akram, or Rahim and Arham
Therefore according to the following verses, we cannot use akbar as a name/attribute of Allah
5323 These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. God never authorized such. They only follow conjecture, and personal desire, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
Bro, you have totally misunderstood 5323, firstly the verse above is not general it is about 3 specific names that the Kufar gave to God, these names are Allati, Al Oza and Manah
19 Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,
20 And another, the third (goddess), Manat?
21 What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?
22 Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!
23 These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
(19)
(20)
(21)
(22)
(23)-> See where you got it wrong?, 5323 is specific to these three names, that they associated to Allah
-> What you missed also that 5323 says ? for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever).? , now for those three stupid names the Kuffar made up, sure Allah never sent down any authority, but the verse didn?s say that Allah didn?t send these names down, He only said ?DID NOT SEND AN AUTHORITY?, therefore when He told us to Nukabbir Him, He gave us an authority to say Allah Akbar,
5328 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
no we do have knowledge
Firstly the word Akbar is similar to kabir and even has more superior meaning
Secondly Allah has sent us an authority by asking us to Nukabbir Allah especially when we slaughter the Annam
771 He said "An affliction and wrath shall befall you from your Lord. Do you argue with me over names which you and your fathers have created with no authority being sent down by God? Wait then, and I will wait with you."
again the authority was sent as I explained
1241 "What you serve besides Him are nothing but names which you have created you and your fathers, God did not send down any authority for such. The judgment is for none but God.
That is right those kufar in the past and many other now are doing that, but I won?t be specific on who is doing it
Now for Allah Akabar, as I explained Allah sent us a clear authority
Akbar, obviously, has been created by "you and your fathers" for Allah, as it has NEVER been used by Allah for Himself in the qur'aan, therefore, has not been authorized by Him as such. You have not been able to refute this point yet.
ok
That description of Akbar was not made up by a bunch of people, in fact Abraham ?the father of all Muslims? said it himself in the Quran, and sure the prophet history records confirm that the prophet said it zillions of times in his Salat and during scarifying the Annam, and sometimes while just sitting in peace.
Abraham said it for the sun, not for Allah.
I understand, but he meant the sun was God, because it is Akbar from the moon
Please do not say something that the qur'aan does not say and then attribute it to the qur'aan. That is inventing a lie against Allah.
well saying Allah Akbar is an action fulfilling the order to Nukabbir Allah, especially when we slaughter the Anaam
Most of Prophet Muhammad's so called history/"hadeeth" is unverifiable hearsay/rumor/conjecture/fabrication by other people and falsely attributed to him. The only true hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad is in the qur'aan itself.
did I use it as an evidence?
By saying that Prophet Muhammad said something when one has no AUTHENTIC AND VERIFIABLE proof that he said so, is inventing lies against the Prophet. If Bukhari and company and other people say that Prophet Muhammad said something DOES NOT 100% PROVE that Prophet said it too; they could be lying and fabricating things about the Prophet and falsely attributing it to him.
I?m sorry we have something that can be used to authenticate the hadith, this thing is called Quran
In fact the prophet himself said that there will be many things we will hear about him that he said while he never said it, so they asked him how they can authenticate it, he told then compare it with the Quran, if it passes the Quran, then I said it and this makes great sense to me
The only way we can determine if a so called "hadeeth" is 100 % true, is by comparing it with the qur'aan.
exactly
When we compare all the so called "hadeeth" about akbar being an attribute of Allah with the qur'aan, we find no mention of akbar as an attribute used by Allah for Himself in the qur'aan, so all those "hadeeth" about this subject have to be lies/conjectures/fabrications and can be safely thrown in the trash bin. By obeying the liars, one is not obeying Allah and His messenger, but obeying the liars, which is setting up partners with Allah.
excuse me, comparing does not mean that the exact words will be in both, that does not make any sense to me, because we will only need one copy only, the prophet was explaining the Quran as he was ordered to do by Allah
6112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
5323 These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. God never authorized such. They only follow conjecture, and personal desire, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
5328 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.
And because the Quran told us to Nukabir Allah, it simply means to say and believe that Allah Akbar than any thing.
bro I?m not discussing the Quran alone or the sunnah in here, I never used any hadith from the first place, I only used the Quran
Allah does not say "nukabir" but says "fakabbir" (743), "tukabbaroo" (2237), and "kabbirhu" (17111). Please refrain from saying that the qur'aan told us to "nukabir", when it does not.
bro I said it as from first person perspective, this is something in the language but I?m sorry I have no time to explain it now, thank you
You keep saying that akbar is not Allah's name but an attribute.
well I don't think I said it is an attribute, but if I did then it must be a mistake by me, sorry
Allah Akbar is fulfilling the order to Nukabbar Allah (the NU, is for first person perspective in plural)
All attributes of Allah that He used for Himself in the qur'aan are also His names, and we can "kabbir" Him (glorify Him) by using any of those beautiful names. Akbar, however, is NOT ONE OF THEM. Allah has made the qur'aan fully detailed, and complete, and has given every kind of example in it relevant to our guidance; THEN HOW DID HE FORGET TO MENTION THE ATTRIBUTE OF AKBAR FOR HIMSELF IN THE QUR'AAN ?
would that be a repeated question?
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
How/where do we find the beautiful names of Allah ? From/in the qur'aan, of course. Is akbar in the qur'aan as an attribute/name of Allah...... NO.
Akabr is not a name but an action of fulfilling the order of Tukabbiro Allah, ( the TU and the O are for second person perspective in plural)
Good night bro
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well saying Allah Akbar is an action fulfilling the order to Nukabbir Allah, especially when we slaughter the Anaam
The above is Bull.S. We mention the name of God not Allah Akbar. I have seen beheading videos where they are mentioning this, and it makes me sick!
Allah is not small and is not big. Period!
Peace
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well saying Allah Akbar is an action fulfilling the order to Nukabbir Allah, especially when we slaughter the Anaam
The above is Bull.S. We mention the name of God not Allah Akbar. I have seen beheading videos where they are mentioning this, and it makes me sick!
Allah is not small and is not big. Period!
Peace
wow
another big objection shock
but what puzzles me is this
what the hell the beheading videos has to do with our discussion?
well it is not really my problem that a bunch of sick thugs did this grosome act of terror and mischief on earth
sure you are the one who is having prokem with it therefore i have to tell you this
sorry, it is your problem, not sure if you can resolve it with the thugs though, i won't try if i were you
not sure if I said Allah is small, but I'm sure i said Allah is great not big, i'm sure i said it is not in size, didn't i?
thanks
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Peace enquirer,
Ab has shown that in the quran it mentions fakabbir,tukabbaroo and kabirhu. Arent these commands/recommendations to kabbir allah?
Yes they are; and how do we fulfil these commands ? by glorifying Allah with attributes authorized by Him in the qur'aan. Has Allah used akbar for himself ? NO
Wouldnt one way of kabbir allah be covered by saying allah hu akbar?
No, because Allah NEVER uses the attribute akbar for Himself in the qur'aan.
You are still quoting verses to downgrade and insult peoples faith,and justify your own viewpoint.Whats the point in discussing when emotions are used instead of proper reason?
I am not downgrading and insulting anyones faith. Be assured, I am very cool and calm and am using reason and not emotions. So now quoting verses from qur'aan is not ok ? Please tell brother Ahmed that also.
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Peace tanvermed. Ok,we will agree to disagree on the allah hu akbar issue.Thats fine. My point is a broader one. When discussing issues are you and ab so sure of your interpretations that you are both willing to say to people that if you dont believe in this or that interpretation that they are idolators.Some sunnis do the same thing with the quran and the hadith on small issues...I thought you guys were past this dogma. You know there are truely massive issues in the world like famine,war and sectarian violence. If someone is justifying violence, (or some similiar horrendous deed.) then you might be right to call his attention to verses condeming his stance or warn him not to indulge in shirk...But this arbitrary,opinionated,dogmatic,sectarian,narrow-minded,intolerant approach on issues that are not in the same league,and may even be open to different opinions, is just plain immature. You dont even know the intentions or the exact beliefs of the people you are posting to. Are you adding to peace(islam.) by your opinions?I hope in time you will realise the mistake of your current dabate/attitude with regard to 'quran rejectors' and realise you are not following several verses in relation to your own book. 17;36,4;94,2;62;5;69 being some of them. I hope you take this post constructively,i have no wish to disrespect you.
Peace all. ps;you stated we all make mistakes,thats true and surely we should therefore think carefully about the consequences if we make a mistake in branding people idolators,or their behaviour as shirk...Its fine to have different opinions there is some subjectivity in religion,but these opinions should not be derogotary or harmful or create incorrect sectarian feelings. -
Peace enquirer,
you are both willing to say to people that if you dont believe in this or that interpretation that they are idolators
Please refrain from making false accusations. Neither AB said that if I dont believe in his interpretation then I will be idolater, nor I have said that if brother Ahmed doesnt believe in my interpretation then he is an idolater. It is not good to make false accusations.
But this arbitrary,opinionated,dogmatic,sectarian,narrow-minded,intolerant approach on issues that are not in the same league,and may even be open to different opinions, is just plain immature.
Look at yourself, you just labelled me immature along with a lot of other harsh adjectives. Please take your own advice !
I hope in time you will realise the mistake of your current dabate/attitude with regard to 'quran rejectors'
You are in the wrong thread man. This discussion is about whether akbar can be used for Allah.
but these opinions should not be derogotary or harmful or create incorrect sectarian feelings.
Another false accusation. I have not made any derogatory or harmful remarks about anyone and have neither tried to create any sectarian feelings.
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Peace tanvermed. re-read your posts and mine. I have claimed that you quote verses stating that believing in names other than the ones you feel god has authorised is shirk. Ab claims if a person does not believe in the quran or certain requirements such as angels etc ,then they are not muslim. Correct me if im wrong,but you have a full thread on 'quran rejectors'. You both disregard 2;62 and 5;69. If you want me to believe that you are not implying this attribution of shirk to others,nor ab then i think you are underestimating the intelligence of people on this forum. If you dont mean to imply to others that they are commiting shirk,then i suggest you state these interpretations are your own opinions and not necessarily allahs. And also be more explicit in that you dont think someone who believes contrary to you is condemned by your view of quranic verses. To be honest you sound like you are back-tracking from your implications.Peace all.
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Peace tanvermed. soo much defensiveness and counter-accusation. shock Do you regard another persons opinion as valid if they state your view has caused them upset? Or are you a law unto yourself? I have addressed your behaviour,not labelled/branded you...We are all good by nature so we all can change for the better.. I am not questioning your intentions,but your end product.( ie the harmful implications.)
Take care. ) -
Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
Please consider that this is not a challenge neither a debate, my style may look that way but you will change your mind if you see me really debating someone, between me and you, there is no losers, both of us must be winners at the end
For me any believer who submit that the Quran is the word of Allah is a true believer that will have my total respect always even if I cross with them, I say they submit because they said so as I did about the Quran
Did I say it is a challenge or a debate or that I am trying to win ? shock I am just trying to have an objective discussion to help us find the truth. I have total respect for you too brother.
first of all, not all names are attributes, because Allah is a name and not an attribute, regarding the other names, yes I agree that they should not be translated into another language as the case with any name, but Allah choose these names for Himself so we know Him better, and for the native Arabic speakers they don need to translate in fact they use most Allah names preceded by Abdu as names for themselves, like Abdu Alllah, Abdul Al Rahim, Abdu Al Rahman, Abdu Al Qader, Abdu Al Qadoos, etc etc, actually you will never hear of Abdu Al Kabir, LOL, this is just a side note not an evidence of something,, therefore I believe they needed to translate it to make clearer for the non Arabic speakers
The names used by Allah in the qur'aan are also His attributes and vice versa. Al-Rahman means The Merciful; that is a name as well as an attribute of Allah meaning that He is incomparably Merciful. Similarly Al-Khaliq is a name of Allah as well as His attribute meaning that He is The Creator. Al-'Aleem is a name of Allah as well as His attribute meaning that He is All-Knower. We praise Allah and glorify Him using His attributes/names that He authorized for Himself in the qur'aan.
If they are just proper names then they should never be translated, not even to make it clearer for non Arabic speakers. For example Ahmed Bahgat will remain Ahmed Bahgat as your proper name no matter which country of the world you go to and no one has the right to translate your name to their native language while addressing you. Danish is a good name but will you like it if I start calling you Danish from now on ? NO, because you have not authorized that name for yourself.
Akbar has not been authorized by Allah for Himself in the qur'aan as an attribute or a name. When you start using akbar meaning "greater" for Allah to kabbar/glorify Him, then it becomes an adjective of Allah or in other words an ATTRIBUTE of Allah.
ATTRIBUTE an abstraction belonging to or characteristic of an entity, a quality which is considered as belonging to, or inherent in, an entity, an adjective.
we will come to the same dead end bro, Akbar is not a name, neither Arham Al Rahmin, nor Al Akram, try and see if any of these three appear in the any list of Allah names as extracted from the Quran
When you use akbar for Allah, it becomes an attribute of Allah. The names of Allah are also His attributes and vice versa, so in that case akbar will become a name of Allah, which has not been authorized by Allah in the qur'aan for Himself, by not using it for Himself.
According to 963, your Rabb is Al-Akram, so that makes Al-Akram His attribute, and thus His name. Similarly Arham Al-Rahemeen is His attribute according to the qur'aan, and thus His name too. Just like Al-Raheem and Al-Khaliq and Al-'Aleem are His attributes and also His names.
now the important question really, can you count Allah names in the Quran and be 100% sure that this is the right count for His names?
I can?t, but I know when I tell someone to Tukabbir Allah, it means to say Allah Akbar, like when I say to someone Sabbih Allah, he/she should say Subhana Allah, this is all about glorifying God, those who say it is wrong are really twisting it very bad to make their argument look good
Subhana allah has been used by Allah MULTIPLE TIMES in the qur'aan (12108, 2122, 2391, 278, 2868, 3017, 37159, 5243, 5923, without counting subhana rabbi or subhana rabbana). Isn't it a little strange that Allah has not used "Allahu akbar" ONCE for Himself in the qur'aan ??? shock
Please don't conjecture about what Allah wants us to say when he asks us to Tukabbir Allah. IMHO the twisting is not being done by me !
Your argument that if it was not said about Allah by Himself in the Quran then it can?t be said, well the intention is to glorify him, and to nukabir Him for the great favours He gave us, like Al Anaam that we eat and this an example of when we should say Allahu Akabar when we slaughter these Annam,
Yes, the intention is to glorify Him, but how can we glorify Him by an attribute that is not authorized or even mentioned in the qur'aan by Allah for Himself ???
Please post the verse that asks us to "nukabir" Allah when eating al-anaam, or when slaughtering anaam. It doesnt say to "nukabir" Him but to mention His name.
54 So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.
6118 So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed believe in His revelations.
6119 And why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has fully detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to?
6121 And do not eat from that which God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
2234 And for every nation We have made a rite that they may mention God's name over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So your god is One god, so to Him surrender and give good tidings to those who obey.
2236 And the plump animals for offering, We have made them for you as decrees from God, in them is goodness for you. So mention God's name upon them while being orderly, so once their body becomes still, then eat from them and give food to the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful.
Where does it say "nukabir" Allah in these verses related to al-anaam and slaughtering al-anaam ? I don't see it.
Now the prophet never said to not to say Allah Akbar and this is enough for me, it does not even matter now if he said to say it because what it matters for me that He never said not to say it
How do you know with 100 % certainty that Prophet Muhammad never said not to say Allahu akbar ? Allah is clearly telling us not to create names for Him that he has not authorized, and has NEVER used akbar for Himself in the qur'aan, isn't that enough ?
because He told us to Nukabbir Him many times, I?m speaking English dear brother,
How do you Tukbbir Allah, do you mind if I ask?
I have answered that several times before in my posts. Let me remind you of just 2 times I have already answered this
All attributes of Allah that He used for Himself in the qur'aan are also His names, and we can "kabbir" Him (glorify Him) by using any of those beautiful names.
Posted Thu Apr 06, 2006 1028 pmNow to KABBAR Him (magnify Him), you can do that by saying Allahu Al-Kabeer because Al-Kabeer used with Allah has an absolute meaning and is the same as magnifying Him.
Posted Thu Apr 06, 2006 1131 amI am speaking English too, but maybe you are not reading my posts in their entirety ? No wonder you are not getting my reasoning. wink
Well, of course He didn?t, but He never restricted us to what is in the Quran to glorify and Nukabbir Him, in fact He left it open big deal to the prophet, and I believe this is another serious test for the believers
Please prove what you are saying from the qur'aan. Allah clearly advises us in the qur'aan not to create names for Him that he has not authorized. Did Allah forget to mention such an important attribute of His in the qur'aan ?
well, this can be classified Ahsan Al Qawal about Allah, Allah wants us to know Him anyway, and He called Himself Kabir, so there is no reason for the believers to believe that He is also Akbar, like Karim and Akram, or Rahim and Arham
Allah mentions Karim and Akram, and Rahim and Arham Al-Rahemeen, doesn't it strike you as odd that he doesn't mention akbar for Himself ? Did He forget ?
The underlined portion of your quote above actually supports what I have been saying all along that there is no reason for the believers to believe that Allah is akbar (you need to watch what you are saying bro). wink
Bro, you have totally misunderstood 5323, firstly the verse above is not general it is about 3 specific names that the Kufar gave to God, these names are Allati, Al Oza and Manah
Allah is giving the examples of those three names. The general message of that verse is not to make up ANY name for Allah that He has not authorized for Himself.
therefore when He told us to Nukabbir Him, He gave us an authority to say Allah Akbar
Pure conjecture, unsupported by the qur'aan. 771 clearly tells us not to create any names for Him that He has not authorized for Himself. How does Allah authorize a name or attribute for Himself ? By using it for Himself in His revelations.
Firstly the word Akbar is similar to kabir and even has more superior meaning
Your personal opinion does not count. We need qur'aanic proof and support from qur'aan.
Secondly Allah has sent us an authority by asking us to Nukabbir Allah especially when we slaughter the Annam
I already addressed this above. We should refrain from attributing something in qur'aan to Allah what He never said in the qur'aan, otherwise it becomes inventing a lie against Allah.
I understand, but he meant the sun was God, because it is Akbar from the moon
Abraham never used akbar for Allah.
tanveermd wrote
Most of Prophet Muhammad's so called history/"hadeeth" is unverifiable hearsay/rumor/conjecture/fabrication by other people and falsely attributed to him. The only true hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad is in the qur'aan itself.did I use it as an evidence?
Yes you did and I quote
and sure the prophet history records confirm that the prophet said it zillions of times in his Salat and during scarifying the Annam, and sometimes while just sitting in peace.
In fact the prophet himself said that there will be many things we will hear about him that he said while he never said it, so they asked him how they can authenticate it, he told then compare it with the Quran, if it passes the Quran, then I said it and this makes great sense to me
Please use the same authenticating process for this topic also. Allah never uses akbar for Himself in the qur'aan, thereby does not authorize it for Himself; so obviously all the "hadeeth" mentioning akbar for Allah have to be lies/conjectures/fabrications.
excuse me, comparing does not mean that the exact words will be in both, that does not make any sense to me, because we will only need one copy only, the prophet was explaining the Quran as he was ordered to do by Allah
The Prophet followed only the qur'aan for explanation
1015 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!"
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Peace enquirer,
Do you regard another persons opinion as valid if they state your view has caused them upset?
What have I said against you that has upset you ?
I have claimed that you quote verses stating that believing in names other than the ones you feel god has authorised is shirk.
When did I say "believing in names other than the ones I FEEL" ? Please do not misquote me bro.
Correct me if im wrong,but you have a full thread on 'quran rejectors'. You both disregard 2;62 and 5;69.
I already replied to this accusation of yours in that thread and I showed you that I did not disregard 262 and 569. Please keep your posts in this thread relevant to this thread.
If you want me to believe that you are not implying this attribution of shirk to others,nor ab
I made a general statement expressing my understanding and never implied that a particular person is committing shirk.
If you dont mean to imply to others that they are commiting shirk,then i suggest you state these interpretations are your own opinions and not necessarily allahs.
I never stated my understanding and then said it is Allah's. Another accusation. What is your problem bro ? did not have enough sleep ?
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Peace enquirer,
And also be more explicit in that you dont think someone who believes contrary to you is condemned by your view of quranic verses. To be honest you sound like you are back-tracking from your implications
I never implied anything about anyone, just made a general statement about my understanding. You falsely accuse me of doing something and then tell me not to do it ? You need to chill out bro wink