Redefinition of idol-worship?
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Salaams BR,
can you ever condone it ,any form of it , if we want to be sympathetic to an individual?
relatives,friends,boss,girl...........
Or should one always be hateful of it?
God Bless us.
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peace simple and all. I would say it depends on the degree of harm that it causes.If its negligible harm it may just be commented on or left,if its quite harmful then it could be deflected,nullified,neutralised,admonished and advised against. Just like telling your children off,you try to tell them off and make them think,while still being loving and respectful to them.
Peace. -
Salaams Bro,
are there any proofs for your difinition/s from the quran?
and the subtle procedure to nulify them or regard them as such?
Thanks.
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peace simple and all. Take a look at 3159. Also in the quran there are many examples of muslims committing big mistakes(eg moses killing a man,jonah running from his mission,muhammed in 661 prohibiting what is not forbidden etc,etc..),are you proposing we should dislike these people now?Were not they commiting shirk?(even if unintentionally.) The problem that people have in interpreting this book is that they take the unclear or metaphorical verses over the clear verses on respect for all humanity.(37 and 436.) And they also think they will find the answer to everthing in the physical book...we have intellect and the whole of the universe is one endless scripture,the proofs are in yourself and the horizons of the universe(4153.)
Peace all. -
Salaams Br,
You said? are you proposing we should dislike these people now? Were not they committing shirk?"
Sorry how is this shirk especially when done unintentionally?
You don't dislike anybody when it is not intentional idol worship, even when done intentionally we should dislike their idol worshipping as you said on another topic rather then the individuals.
BUT idol worship isn't a miner offence.
Check out
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/satan/enemy.htm
Salaams.
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Peace simple. If i touch a peace of wood and say 'touch wood'(for good luck.) is that very harmful or a big sin? Is it shirk? Shirk=illogical thought,and some thoughts have bigger consequences than others.
And if unintentional shirk is not shirk,then no-one should call trinity christians mushriks,because it is not their intention to commit it...they just have(in some views.) a mistaken idea of god.
Peace all. -
Salaams Br,
"A mistaken idea of god." it may be so but it is carried out with intent.
Unlike unintentional which is accidental.
And the quran says we will be rewarded according to our intentions Br!
If a Sunni stones your sister to death will you simply forgive because he has a mistaken idea of the law?
No chance.
If a Sunni slaps your sister because she spat on his face but she dies will you forgive him because that was un intentional?
I think may be.
Gods Blessings.
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peace simple. My point was their intent may be to worship one god,but they understand it as a trinity,or that jesus is god.(which is incorrect in some views,and could be called a mistaken view.) How do you know they intentionally want to be idol-worshippers? I dont think many christians would say they intentionally commit idol-worship.
Will you forgive a quran/god only/any/ person if they feel it is their right to oppress you because you dont confirm to their behaviour and beliefs?(and they think the quran/god justifies this oppression.)
Forgiveness does not have to mean forgetting or no consequences to a persons actions. I take forgiveness to mean trying not to overreact or act disproportionatly and having empathy when you are wronged. In the quran even in cases of murder is there not the option for forgiveness?(2;178.) Peace. -
Idolatry is blind faith. Agreeing to whatever the religious leaders tell you without verifying.
- And the Jews say Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
- They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
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Peace tony. I agree. Blind faith in illusions,dogmas and preconceived ideas,despite seeing clear verified facts, is illogical,and can be harmful.
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Peace enquirer all,
I believe idol worship can be anything we put above GOD and what He requires of us as Muslims..(i.e.leaders,food,entertainment,clothing,etc)
Idol worship isnt when we do something He asks us to do(in the Quran)
and we dont understand what He asking and so do it wrongly.It only becomes idol worship when we understand yet we still hold onto our idea,then the practice or subject becomes an idol unto itself. -
peace jhamza and all . Thats sounds very reasonable.
What is the difference between shirk(idol-worship or partners to god.) and kufr?(rejection or disbelief.) I was thinking that shirk could be unintentional(eg through lack of knowledge.) while kufr could be intentional(eg through mental illness.)? What do people think?
Peace all. -
peace jhamza and all . Thats sounds very reasonable.
What is the difference between shirk(idol-worship or partners to god.) and kufr?(rejection or disbelief.) I was thinking that shirk could be unintentional(eg through lack of knowledge.) while kufr could be intentional(eg through mental illness.)? What do people think?
Peace all.Peace enquirer,all,
The Quran says that those who set up partners with GOD or those who practice idolotry will no be forgiven.
3151
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
448
God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
4116
Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.
572
They surely disbelieve who say Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.I dont believe Christians or others that sit up partners believe they are wrong or idol worshipers,so they fall into the unintentional category.
Kufr on the other hand I believe would be those that understand the Truth but reject as some of the christians and jews did and some that submit yet fall out of belief..and those that still disbelieve even though they have read the Quran or told the truth from the Quran.So kufr imo could refer to both those that reject the truth even though they understand and those that reject the truth that dont understand it when they hear it.
But this is only my understanding and may be wrong.
2217
.......And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. -
Salaams enquirer,
If as you said
?I would also state that idolatry is an 'illogical state of mind' and not a derogatory or 'branding' term. The harm caused by illogical thinking can vary from near negligible"
If the harm can be negligible - then the punishment should have been likewise, and why is Allah pointing you/us to Hell for idolatry???
God Bless.
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A previous thread about shirk
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4044 -
Peace simple.Hell(severe stress.)is from continual shirk,so a small infraction may be relatively harmless. I think we have all commited shirk in some way or other. However dont get me wrong,some shirk is very serious because it is harmful to humans.(eg believing you can oppress people.) peace all.
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Salaams enquirer,
stress here but what is the gahanum which as Allah says is after we are dead-fire?
Gods Blessings.
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Peace tony. I agree. Blind faith in illusions,dogmas and preconceived ideas,despite seeing clear verified facts, is illogical,and can be harmful.
Here in the Philippines, I have watched too many christian religious programs and I tell you, when the preacher asks them to jump 3 times, they jump 3 times.
And I agree with you..the influence of pre-conceived ideas are so strong. I have been a Christian once and now, when I debate christian things with these Christians, they say I can't let go of my pre-conceived ideas, specially regarding the divinity of Jesus. I told them "I have no or minimal problems with pre-conceived ideas because I have let go of my old beliefs. It is YOU who have a big problem, not me."
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Peace simple and all. I take hell-fire or 'jahannum' to be symbolically standing for severe stress or suffering after you have commited illogical/harmful deeds.(ie the consequences.) These 'afterlife' or 'akhirah' punishments/consequences can start the moment you do a bad deed,or after a period of time.The stress/punishment can abate/reduce/stop when we rectify our bad deeds and/or come to terms with and realise the wrong we have done. We live and die(metaphorically) all the time.(eg when we ignore our conscience we die spiritually and can get very stressed,.... we are reborn to live when we re-open our conscience and rectify things,and this is called heaven,or true happiness/lack of severe stress.) So the afterlife(akhirah.) is not just when we 'physically die,nor does hell/stress/punishment have to be permanent.' Peace.
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Peace
Idols are altso our mental constructs. The thougt that can make us love or hate someone purely based on an idea that we have. And not "loving" other people based only on ignorance is turning your back directly against God, thus to me represents another idol. We have programs on television, where we can make our own physical idols...and they even call it "idols". 98% of the times where we "fall on love" it is nothing but us mirroring ourself in another human being. What we fall in love with is ourself, untill the day comes after a short period of violent chemical exposure to your body that feels amazing, and you realise that there is someone behind the mirror...someone you dont particulary like.
This is but another idol for us to deal with, another mental construct.Other have the mental construct that the truth of all is to find written down on paper. Wich to me is closing in on blasphemy and stupidity combined.
Idols are everywhere, and the only way to see them and be aware of them is by going through a world of hurt and pain, as your constructs start to crumble and you accept that it is happening. Something all members of this site has had happen to them.