Redefinition of idol-worship?
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Salaams Br,
"A mistaken idea of god." it may be so but it is carried out with intent.
Unlike unintentional which is accidental.
And the quran says we will be rewarded according to our intentions Br!
If a Sunni stones your sister to death will you simply forgive because he has a mistaken idea of the law?
No chance.
If a Sunni slaps your sister because she spat on his face but she dies will you forgive him because that was un intentional?
I think may be.
Gods Blessings.
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peace simple. My point was their intent may be to worship one god,but they understand it as a trinity,or that jesus is god.(which is incorrect in some views,and could be called a mistaken view.) How do you know they intentionally want to be idol-worshippers? I dont think many christians would say they intentionally commit idol-worship.
Will you forgive a quran/god only/any/ person if they feel it is their right to oppress you because you dont confirm to their behaviour and beliefs?(and they think the quran/god justifies this oppression.)
Forgiveness does not have to mean forgetting or no consequences to a persons actions. I take forgiveness to mean trying not to overreact or act disproportionatly and having empathy when you are wronged. In the quran even in cases of murder is there not the option for forgiveness?(2;178.) Peace. -
Idolatry is blind faith. Agreeing to whatever the religious leaders tell you without verifying.
- And the Jews say Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
- They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
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Peace tony. I agree. Blind faith in illusions,dogmas and preconceived ideas,despite seeing clear verified facts, is illogical,and can be harmful.
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Peace enquirer all,
I believe idol worship can be anything we put above GOD and what He requires of us as Muslims..(i.e.leaders,food,entertainment,clothing,etc)
Idol worship isnt when we do something He asks us to do(in the Quran)
and we dont understand what He asking and so do it wrongly.It only becomes idol worship when we understand yet we still hold onto our idea,then the practice or subject becomes an idol unto itself. -
peace jhamza and all . Thats sounds very reasonable.
What is the difference between shirk(idol-worship or partners to god.) and kufr?(rejection or disbelief.) I was thinking that shirk could be unintentional(eg through lack of knowledge.) while kufr could be intentional(eg through mental illness.)? What do people think?
Peace all. -
peace jhamza and all . Thats sounds very reasonable.
What is the difference between shirk(idol-worship or partners to god.) and kufr?(rejection or disbelief.) I was thinking that shirk could be unintentional(eg through lack of knowledge.) while kufr could be intentional(eg through mental illness.)? What do people think?
Peace all.Peace enquirer,all,
The Quran says that those who set up partners with GOD or those who practice idolotry will no be forgiven.
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We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
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God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
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Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.
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They surely disbelieve who say Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.I dont believe Christians or others that sit up partners believe they are wrong or idol worshipers,so they fall into the unintentional category.
Kufr on the other hand I believe would be those that understand the Truth but reject as some of the christians and jews did and some that submit yet fall out of belief..and those that still disbelieve even though they have read the Quran or told the truth from the Quran.So kufr imo could refer to both those that reject the truth even though they understand and those that reject the truth that dont understand it when they hear it.
But this is only my understanding and may be wrong.
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.......And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. -
Salaams enquirer,
If as you said
?I would also state that idolatry is an 'illogical state of mind' and not a derogatory or 'branding' term. The harm caused by illogical thinking can vary from near negligible"
If the harm can be negligible - then the punishment should have been likewise, and why is Allah pointing you/us to Hell for idolatry???
God Bless.
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A previous thread about shirk
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4044 -
Peace simple.Hell(severe stress.)is from continual shirk,so a small infraction may be relatively harmless. I think we have all commited shirk in some way or other. However dont get me wrong,some shirk is very serious because it is harmful to humans.(eg believing you can oppress people.) peace all.
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Salaams enquirer,
stress here but what is the gahanum which as Allah says is after we are dead-fire?
Gods Blessings.
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Peace tony. I agree. Blind faith in illusions,dogmas and preconceived ideas,despite seeing clear verified facts, is illogical,and can be harmful.
Here in the Philippines, I have watched too many christian religious programs and I tell you, when the preacher asks them to jump 3 times, they jump 3 times.
And I agree with you..the influence of pre-conceived ideas are so strong. I have been a Christian once and now, when I debate christian things with these Christians, they say I can't let go of my pre-conceived ideas, specially regarding the divinity of Jesus. I told them "I have no or minimal problems with pre-conceived ideas because I have let go of my old beliefs. It is YOU who have a big problem, not me."
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Peace simple and all. I take hell-fire or 'jahannum' to be symbolically standing for severe stress or suffering after you have commited illogical/harmful deeds.(ie the consequences.) These 'afterlife' or 'akhirah' punishments/consequences can start the moment you do a bad deed,or after a period of time.The stress/punishment can abate/reduce/stop when we rectify our bad deeds and/or come to terms with and realise the wrong we have done. We live and die(metaphorically) all the time.(eg when we ignore our conscience we die spiritually and can get very stressed,.... we are reborn to live when we re-open our conscience and rectify things,and this is called heaven,or true happiness/lack of severe stress.) So the afterlife(akhirah.) is not just when we 'physically die,nor does hell/stress/punishment have to be permanent.' Peace.
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Peace
Idols are altso our mental constructs. The thougt that can make us love or hate someone purely based on an idea that we have. And not "loving" other people based only on ignorance is turning your back directly against God, thus to me represents another idol. We have programs on television, where we can make our own physical idols...and they even call it "idols". 98% of the times where we "fall on love" it is nothing but us mirroring ourself in another human being. What we fall in love with is ourself, untill the day comes after a short period of violent chemical exposure to your body that feels amazing, and you realise that there is someone behind the mirror...someone you dont particulary like.
This is but another idol for us to deal with, another mental construct.Other have the mental construct that the truth of all is to find written down on paper. Wich to me is closing in on blasphemy and stupidity combined.
Idols are everywhere, and the only way to see them and be aware of them is by going through a world of hurt and pain, as your constructs start to crumble and you accept that it is happening. Something all members of this site has had happen to them.
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Peace magi and all. Fantastic insights magi. ! Can you elaborate on the 'chemistry and mirror' bit,i didnt quite understand it.(though it sounds fascinating.) Thank you.
Once again,great post. Peace all. -
Peace enquirer
Thank you so much
Well with the mirror. What i mean is we set out with a construct of how our ideal partner is, inside our head. This contruct is nearly always based on how we ourself see and view things ourself. When we meet one close enough, a whole shitload of chemicals are released in our body. Feel-good chemicals. But note that what set them off, was
1.your own construct
2.hormonesSo now youre a looking into a mirror of yourself in many aspects, and you love it. Suddenly everything this person says to you is everything you always wanted to hear, whatever he/she does is the best thing you ever saw nomatter how lame or ridiculous it may seem to other people around you. I would call this a state of mild insanity and confusion, and getting "married" while under the influence of "drugs" is dumb, and my point is proven (to me anyway) by 2 things. observasion and experience.
1.i can see that most relationships and marriages brakes up after 3 - 5 years. and people often tell me that it was 6 months to 1 year of pure bliss, and then suddenly they found a stranger in their bed, and tried to "make it work" for the rest of the time, untill whatever there was, is now converted into anger, frustration, distrust maybe even hate.
2.I allowed myself to fall deeply in love with a girl i didnt really know some years ago. I felt all of the above, and she was brilliant, untill i realised that all i really loved was the comfort of having someone close, sex on a regular basis and the fact that she fit into my own mental construct at the time. This went absolutely to hell, and today we cant even talk to eachother. Then i had another relationship with a girl whom i at first thought was strange, but the more i spoke to her, the more i realised how interresting a person she was and how much i could learn from her person, that i didnt posses at the time myself. We were together for a good time, and seperated as the best of freinds when our paths in life had to split. Im still in contact with her, and there truely is love between us, i mean in the sense that i want nothing but good for her. And is hurt when she is by some idiot she gave herself away to etc. But i could not be intimate with her anymore, it just isnt there.
My point being that in the 2nd part of (2) i came to love another human, and in the first part i fell in love with a body, and someone saying the things i wanted to hear!.
Sorry if im not getting it out in a clear manner. Otherwise if i havent explained myself properly, please ask again
Peace
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Peace magi. Another brilliant post. ! You are on a roll,in the zone. ! You expressed yourself very eloquently.
I have had very similiar experiences to you in the past. You are very right on the mental construct(or illusion of love.) of a partner bit. I would say the 2nd example you gave was an example of pure,unconditional love.(which is what i am always talking about ) .) And note you dont have to be with someone(as in a relationship.) to still love them.
I believe the love that turns to bitterness(in some marriages.) could be rectified if the love was 'unconditional' or compatibility/compromise issues are resolved peacefully. I think we have to learn to love 'unconditionally' if we want to be truely prosperous and happy,and apply that to all humans and beings. very good points you made in your analysis of relationships. Peace. -
Hello Enquirer,
Peace all. I believe that idolatory is not necessarily praying to a statue,but an addiction or excessive and/or harmful attachment to an illusion/ innappropriate deed.
It was never about praying to a statue in the first place. The Statues were always a symbol for a God. Montheists view of Pagan religions have always been very reductive - borne out of fear and prejudice. They have always failed to see the wholistic vision underlying the many Pagan belief systems. And they have failed to see that even the Gods themselves, as recounted even in earliest Sumerian Creation Myths, emerged in pairs (God creating in pairs?) from a process called emanation from the same substance (Energy?), a substance that was divine in itself. Therefore "God-As-Everything" is quite a ancient insight of humanity...
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Peace lote-tree. I agree.With any so-called 'pagan' belief we have to examine the ideas in their entirety. What i am trying also to get across is that all the scriptures have an underlying reality,which includes the 'god' is everything view. It seems historically that these views/religions pre-dated the appearance of so called 'monotheism'. I wonder what this means? I view current monotheism(as defined by some people.) as an idea which has been totally misused and distorted from what reality suggests. Yes,there is only one god,but we are all part of it. I think thats a truer monotheism.
peace all. Ps;i believe many pagan and ancient beliefs are truer and more beneficial than current interpretations of religion. -
Hello Enquirer,
Peace lote-tree. I agree.With any so-called 'pagan' belief we have to examine the ideas in their entirety. What i am trying also to get across is that all the scriptures have an underlying reality,which includes the 'god' is everything view. It seems historically that these views/religions pre-dated the appearance of so called 'monotheism'. I wonder what this means?
This would have meant that religious ideas evolved from polytheism to monotheism in a linear fashion. But researches in Anthropology have indicated that this has not been the case. Anthropology suggests that there existed a primitive form of "monotheism" along side polytheism. It seems that Religious ideas did not evolve in a linear fashion. But in either case it is true to say that humanity have gone from a "Tribal God" of Moses - who valued only his favourites - to God of Elijah whose God was "God-of-Transcendence". This can be clearly seen in differences between the God of Jaccob, Moses and Elijah. Jacob's God wrestled with him at the Ford of Jabakuk. Jacob's God is like the God of his pagan contemporaries - he appears to him in human form. God of moses on the other hand demands distance "take thy shoes off moses...the ground you stand on is a holy ground". God of Elijah on the other hand is not in any of the natural forces of fire, wind and Earthquake but in a paradox of a voiced-silenced.
I view current monotheism(as defined by some people.) as an idea which has been totally misused and distorted from what reality suggests.
Yes that may be the case. But "God-As-Everthing" or the "Reality" of God can't be proven with logical arguments because it transcends LANGUAGE and REASON. "God-As-Everything" can only be experienced within in a "meditative-trance". This is the insight of all the past sages, seers, prophets and mystics that have come and gone in the bygone ages of this world...
Yes,there is only one god,but we are all part of it. I think thats a truer
monotheism.Yes. But as I said before "God-As-Everything" can't be proven rationally and so it does not appeal to the masses perhaps.
peace all. Ps;i believe many pagan and ancient beliefs are truer and more beneficial than current interpretations of religion.
Yes, to understand anything fully one needs to study and understand what came before it...
Regards