Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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Peace bmbmm. You made a very good point doc. If the quran says; ' so ask the people of the reminder if you dont know'.(16;43.) then its obviously asking you to go to people of knowledge/previous books,not just the the quran.(otherwise it would say ask the prophet or ask the people who know the quran?) Dont forget knowledge can be obtained outside the quran as well.
"az zikr/the reminder" is an attribute of the Koran . so "ahluz zikr/people of the reminder" is refering to the people of the Koran , not to the people of the "previous" books .
peace.
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Peace bmbmm. You made a very good point doc. If the quran says; ' so ask the people of the reminder if you dont know'.(16;43.) then its obviously asking you to go to people of knowledge/previous books,not just the the quran.(otherwise it would say ask the prophet or ask the people who know the quran?) Dont forget knowledge can be obtained outside the quran as well.
"az zikr/the reminder" is an attribute of the Koran . so "ahluz zikr/people of the reminder" is refering to the people of the Koran , not to the people of the "previous" books .
peace.
Salam Brother,
I thought it means to ask people with knowledge. From what you are saying (people of the Quran) we are restricting ourselves and furthermore it does not help much as "what really are people of the Quran"? For instance, if I have something to ask about the details an astronomical event I will ask NASA scientists, as it really does not matter, and I don't think they have to be people of the Quran. Also if its related to genomic analysis of a fly I will consult UC Berkley as they sequenced it. I think we have to move away from the primitive understanding of the Arabic words by the Arabs from the past. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If az zikr is taken as general knowledge (rather than the Quran) it make perfect sense.
I think because of a misunderstanding of this now we have Islamic Scholars (who are these ???). What happen is rather than from a Universal/university concept building, due to the understanding of the word as people of the Quran we have frozen ourselves back in time. As a result useless Islamic madrasas/schools/scholars are produced nowadays. Lets put the word az zikr back to its context.
Please check my thread "The Myth of Islamic Scholarship" )
Peace
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salam bro .
Salam Brother,
I thought it means to ask people with knowledge. From what you are saying (people of the Quran) we are restricting ourselves and furthermore it does not help much as "what really are people of the Quran"? For instance, if I have something to ask about the details an astronomical event I will ask NASA scientists, as it really does not matter, and I don't think they have to be people of the Quran. Also if its related to genomic analysis of a fly I will consult UC Berkley as they sequenced it. I think we have to move away from the primitive understanding of the Arabic words by the Arabs from the past. Please correct me if I am wrong.
if u want to ask about the above information , u will ask the appropriate people/scientists . but if u want to ask about the information in context of 1643 , u will ask the people who posses the Remembrance/Reminder(Koran) . who will support their answers with the verses of the Koran .
If az zikr is taken as general knowledge (rather than the Quran) it make perfect sense.
"az zikr"/THE reminder is refering to a SPECEFIC reminder , NOT GENERAL reminder .
Lets put the word az zikr back to its context.
taking "THE reminder" it as GENERAL knowledge would be putting it out of context .
151 A.L.R., these are the signs of the Book, and a clear Quran.
156 And they said "O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy."
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.381 Suaad, and the Quran that contains the Reminder.
in the above verses , we can see that "az zikr" is refering to the Koran .
salam.
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151 A.L.R., these are the signs of the Book, and a clear Quran.
...
156 And they said "O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy."
...
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.381 Suaad, and the Quran that contains the Reminder.
in the above verses , we can see that "az zikr" is refering to the Koran .
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151 A.L.R., these are the signs of the Book, and a clear Quran.
...
156 And they said "O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy."
...
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.381 Suaad, and the Quran that contains the Reminder.
in the above verses , we can see that "az zikr" is refering to the Koran .
no question about it indeed
Al Quran is known as
- Al Kitab
- Kitab
- Al Zikr
- Zikr
- Sohof
- Al Furqan
- Furqan
that is what i managed to remember so far
peace
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Al Quran is known as
- Al Kitab
- Kitab
- Al Zikr
- Zikr
- Sohof
- Al Furqan
- Furqan
that is what i managed to remember so far
other attributes of the Kitab("Koran")
(copied from IIPC forum)- Al-Quran / THE READING
- At-Taurah / THE LAW
- Al-Injeel / GOOD NEWS
- Zaboor / PIECE
- Furqan / CRITERION
- Burhan / PROOF
- Sultan / AUTHORITY
- Hiqma / WISDOM
- Hidaya / GUIDANCE
- Nazil / REVELATION
- Wahi / INSPIRATION
- Qalam / SPEECH / WORD
- Basair / INSIGHT
- Ayat / SIGNS
- Majeed / GLORIOUS
- Ajeeb / AMAZING
- Noor / LIGHT
- Ahsan al Hadees / MOST BEAUTIFUL INCIDENT
- Ahsan al Qasas / MOST BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP
- Amsaal / EXAMPLES
- Moezza / PREACHING
- Zikar / REMEMBRANCE
- Alwah / TABLETS
- Zia / SHINE
- Bayyenaat / CLEAR
- Risalat / MESSAGES
- Al-Ambah / THE NEWS
- Al-Qaul / THE SAYING
- Sahoof / PAGES
- Shariyah / WAY
- Al Amarrullah / THE ORDER OF ALLAH
- Al Haq / THE TRUTH
- Al-Ilm / THE KNOWLEDGE
salam.
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Peace Darbaari, Ahmedbahgat,
And these attributes starts revealing itself once one becomes righteouse.
There is No other way to connect to word of GOD.- This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
- Those who believe in the unseen, and uphold the prayer , and from Our provisions to them they spend.
peace,
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Thanks darbari for your post. I totally agree with you. I am looking at zikar in its application. The people of azzikr (reminder) give help from general knowledge (not just from the Quran) when they are approached. However they are the people of the reminder (azzikr) as azzikr is the truth from Allah. Likewise a discovered scientific fact is as much a truth as the azzikr, because it is in conformity with the truth. A competent scientist, a believer of Allah, even though if not aware of the Quran is still a person of azzikr as he/she is get reminded from the truth around him/her.
Generally one who is not agnostic and uphold even one of the following you mentioned from the Quran, or other scriptures, is I consider a person of azzikr.
- Al-Quran / THE READING
- At-Taurah / THE LAW
- Al-Injeel / GOOD NEWS
- Zaboor / PIECE
- Furqan / CRITERION
- Burhan / PROOF
- Sultan / AUTHORITY
- Hiqma / WISDOM
- Hidaya / GUIDANCE
- Nazil / REVELATION
- Wahi / INSPIRATION
- Qalam / SPEECH / WORD
- Basair / INSIGHT
- Ayat / SIGNS
- Majeed / GLORIOUS
- Ajeeb / AMAZING
- Noor / LIGHT
- Ahsan al Hadees / MOST BEAUTIFUL INCIDENT
- Ahsan al Qasas / MOST BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP
- Amsaal / EXAMPLES
- Moezza / PREACHING
- Zikar / REMEMBRANCE
- Alwah / TABLETS
- Zia / SHINE
- Bayyenaat / CLEAR
- Risalat / MESSAGES
- Al-Ambah / THE NEWS
- Al-Qaul / THE SAYING
- Sahoof / PAGES
- Shariyah / WAY
- Al Amarrullah / THE ORDER OF ALLAH
- Al Haq / THE TRUTH
- Al-Ilm / THE KNOWLEDGE
Azzikr the reminder is only useful if azzikr is put in action/perspective. This is only achieved through universal knowledge, hence we have universities today. The reminder is only possible through universal knowledge and knowledge is not restricted to Quran. The lack of understanding or interpretation of the Quran from the people in the past has caused enough troubles; obvious one is people are reading the quran in mosques, chanting Allahu again and again thinking that this is azzikr! Believe me this is not gona help us as if these people are not people of azzikr; simply they can't help me or you, they do not have knowledge! I feel sorry for some of them, but others have found this as an easy ticket to paradise. And the Mythical Islamic scholars, as well as the Rabbis, Prists, Vicars etc have turned this into their careers.
Who do you think the people of azzikr are?
Peace bro
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peace.
Thanks darbari for your post. I totally agree with you. I am looking at zikar in its application. The people of azzikr (reminder) give help from general knowledge (not just from the Quran) when they are approached. However they are the people of the reminder (azzikr) as azzikr is the truth from Allah. Likewise a discovered scientific fact is as much a truth as the azzikr, because it is in conformity with the truth. A competent scientist, a believer of Allah, even though if not aware of the Quran is still a person of azzikr as he/she is get reminded from the truth around him/her.
frankly bro , i dont understand how you derive this understanding . the way i see it , a person cannot be people of THE ZIKR , if he is not aware of the Koran(the zikr) .
Azzikr the reminder is only useful if azzikr is put in action/perspective. This is only achieved through universal knowledge, hence we have universities today. The reminder is only possible through universal knowledge and knowledge is not restricted to Quran.
Koran is not just any knowledge , it is THE KNOWLEDGE . there is knowledge outside the Koran , but not above the Koran . Koran is the Criterion/Furqan over all knowledge .
obvious one is people are reading the quran in mosques, chanting Allahu again and again thinking that this is azzikr! Believe me this is not gona help us as if these people are not people of azzikr; simply they can't help me or you, they do not have knowledge! I feel sorry for some of them, but others have found this as an easy ticket to paradise. And the Mythical Islamic scholars, as well as the Rabbis, Prists, Vicars etc have turned this into their careers.
parroting the Koran is not the Zikr . most of them dont understand a word they say .
Who do you think the people of azzikr are?
the people of the Zikr are like(or same as,since zikr and kitab both are attributes of the Koran) the people of the Kitab . u cannot say that the people of THE Book/Written are the scientist because they possess the GENERAL writings of science . the people of the Book are the people of a SPECEFIC Book(Koran) . same goes for people of the Zikr .
peace.
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Salam,
frankly bro , i dont understand how you derive this understanding . the way i see it , a person cannot be people of THE ZIKR , if he is not aware of the Koran(the zikr)
Not aware or does not acknowledge? I think even if one is aware/acknowledge the Quran does not make a person/people of az zikr.
Anyway who would you say are the people of azzikr. Could you give me an example?
Cheers
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Salam,
frankly bro , i dont understand how you derive this understanding . the way i see it , a person cannot be people of THE ZIKR , if he is not aware of the Koran(the zikr)
Not aware or does not acknowledge? I think even if one is aware/acknowledge the Quran does not make a person/people of az zikr.
Anyway who would you say are the people of azzikr. Could you give me an example?
Cheers
Those who have knowledge of the Koran are the people of the Zikr . as it is the Koran that contains the Zikr (381) .
peace.
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Thanks bro,
My arabic is not that good and I want to clerify whether its people of the reminder or people of remembrance those that know?
Clearly there is a difference between these, plus most translators of the Quran write ask people who know (who remember things who have knowledge), rather than people of reminder.
Do they not carefully analyse the Quran. If it had been from other than Allaah then surely they would have found many discrepancies therein
I think these are the people or collection of people of remembrance/knowledge, who got the knowlwdge (i.e universal knowledge) to carefully analyse the Quran that the Reminder is advising us to approach. As an academic I do not see people just knowing the Quran without any experties in any particular field (for instance, biochemistry) can be approached for clarification of things the Quran demands research into. Hence, I reject the concept of Muslim or Islamic Scholars. Who are they? If we do have a wider understanding of the reminder the Quran than we should acknowledge that it demands research, so if it demands research, I totally believe that any good researcher can reach and find the truth.
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Thanks bro,
My arabic is not that good and I want to clerify whether its people of the reminder or people of remembrance those that know?
my arabic isnt good either . it is hardly beginner level .
Clearly there is a difference between these, plus most translators of the Quran write ask people who know (who remember things who have knowledge), rather than people of reminder.
i think both "remembrance" or "reminder" would fit . in both cases , az zikr would refer to the Koran .
the word of "knowledge" is "ILM" , not "ZKR" .
thanks and salam.
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Do they not carefully analyse the Quran. If it had been from other than Allaah then surely they would have found many discrepancies therein
Are the above people of azzikr?
Peace
i think it is about the rejectors . but i will have to make sure by reading the sura again , or at least some of the surrounding verses . later .
but whats the point ?
.
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Al Quran is known as
- Al Kitab
- Kitab
- Al Zikr
- Zikr
- Sohof
- Al Furqan
- Furqan
that is what i managed to remember so far
other attributes of the Kitab("Koran")
(copied from IIPC forum)- Al-Quran / THE READING
- At-Taurah / THE LAW
- Al-Injeel / GOOD NEWS
- Zaboor / PIECE
- Furqan / CRITERION
- Burhan / PROOF
- Sultan / AUTHORITY
- Hiqma / WISDOM
- Hidaya / GUIDANCE
- Nazil / REVELATION
- Wahi / INSPIRATION
- Qalam / SPEECH / WORD
- Basair / INSIGHT
- Ayat / SIGNS
- Majeed / GLORIOUS
- Ajeeb / AMAZING
- Noor / LIGHT
- Ahsan al Hadees / MOST BEAUTIFUL INCIDENT
- Ahsan al Qasas / MOST BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP
- Amsaal / EXAMPLES
- Moezza / PREACHING
- Zikar / REMEMBRANCE
- Alwah / TABLETS
- Zia / SHINE
- Bayyenaat / CLEAR
- Risalat / MESSAGES
- Al-Ambah / THE NEWS
- Al-Qaul / THE SAYING
- Sahoof / PAGES
- Shariyah / WAY
- Al Amarrullah / THE ORDER OF ALLAH
- Al Haq / THE TRUTH
- Al-Ilm / THE KNOWLEDGE
salam.
Thank you mate, very informative indeed
my only note bro that Quran does not mean reading, it is a name exactly like Injil and Torah,
the word Quran only inclines to read but does not mean reading
I'm not also sure that Zaboor means PIECE, i believe it should be translated as Pslam
Alah knows best
Peace be with you
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Thank you mate, very informative indeed
my only note bro that Quran does not mean reading, it is a name exactly like Injil and Torah,
the word Quran only inclines to read but does not mean reading
I'm not also sure that Zaboor means PIECE, i believe it should be translated as Pslam
salam bro .
i also used to think the same way , but some really detailed and thought provoking lectures at www.IIPC.tv made me change my thinking . but thats a seperate topic ) .i really think u gotta watch the lecture about "al kitab" and "at taurah and injeel" , and also checkout the "kaaba/qibla" lecture (i m trying to transcribe this one to post on this forum . rock solid ).
Alah knows best
indeed.
salam.
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Thank you mate, very informative indeed
my only note bro that Quran does not mean reading, it is a name exactly like Injil and Torah,
the word Quran only inclines to read but does not mean reading
I'm not also sure that Zaboor means PIECE, i believe it should be translated as Pslam
salam bro .
i also used to think the same way , but some really detailed and thought provoking lectures at www.IIPC.tv made me change my thinking . but thats a seperate topic ) .i really think u gotta watch the lecture about "al kitab" and "at taurah and injeel" , and also checkout the "kaaba/qibla" lecture (i m trying to transcribe this one to post on this forum . rock solid ).
Alah knows best
indeed.
salam.
Thanks bro
i will have a look, but i know this web site and i know the guy there Mohammad Shiekh as far as I believe, i listened to his lecture about the Kaaba, i was not very impressed though, but he jhas my total respect though, i will try to see the lecture about Al Kitab and let you know
Peace
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Salam brother darbaari
Just a quick note and please don?t consider it a debate in anyway, calling the Quran ?The Reading? and substituting it with the two words ?The Reading? is very misleading, vague and does not make any sense
We know that the Quran is a book that can only be read as any other book, what new info here to call it the reading?
And most people must ask if you mention it ?The Reading?, which reading?, this is because the Reading is very general and have no attraction to it as an individual word without any context.
And when you face that question ?which reading exactly?? then I'm sure you will answer "The Quran? and when you do that, everything is clear
Now if everything is clear by calling it The Quran, why making it vague and hard to understand for an average human being?
See, if I tell you I love the song, you will ask me which song?, if I keep telling you, the song is the song, you will call me crazy, but if I tell you I love The wall by pink floyed, then you need no elaboration from me unless you don?t know pink floyed and his album the wall
A child know that any book is for reading, this is what they learn first at kindergarten anyway, so I don't think that Allah is considering us children to send us a book that you think it means the Reading and instead of calling it ?Al Qiraa?, ? ? which means the reading, He calls it ?Al Quran?, ? ?, not sure why?, but I can only see that we will be confused if you think He did,
You have to also consider that there are people who can?t read due to ignorance or due to disability, so how they can read the Quran?
The Quran is also for listening, in fact here is another clear order to do just that
YUSUFALI When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace that ye may receive Mercy.
PICKTHAL And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy.
SHAKIR And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.
(204)
-> Now, please tell me, why the above 3 translators all agreed that Quran means Quran?
According to 7204, which one makes sense to an average human
When the Quran is read?
Or
When the reading is read?
I see the name ?Al Quran? is very unique and a miracle on its own because no other reading took that title ?Al Quran? but all readings are already ?The readings? which is vague because it can refer to any thing that can be read including the Quran.
Al Quran only inclines to read but never ever meant the reading because the reading means ??, "Qiraa"
Peace be with you