Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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peace bmbmm and all. You have some very valid points doctor. I think what some people have done is minimalised the salat into a narrow concept and forgotten the wider purpose of salat,which is to get in tune with reality(god.) and so improve our intentions and actions. All life is an effort to discover the true god.(the true reality.) When we close our minds or ignore certain realities and morals we can go backwards in development. Physical salat is one attempt at connecting with god,but it is not the only valid one,it may not work if one ignores basic realities of life.
Science is like salat in that you try to understand life/reality/god through the medium of observation,study and experiment. Some science is good,some is not so good.For science to be good it has to take account of basic realities or otherwise it will turn into a ritual of illusions.(like some salat.) Its not just the physical method which is all-important,but also how you analyse and use the results you get. You are right,if we all try to follow universal law then we can get harmony in the system and be more successful. we have to be patient and tolerant with other peoples different views and try to unite on common ground and/or try to educate in a decent,kind manner by using our god-given intellectual tools.
Peace all. -
Peace,
Great posts All.
Let,s get more into the contents of the prayer. Following some thoughts of Inayat khan collected by Wahidduddin
The first aspect of prayer is giving thanks to God for all the numberless blessings that are bestowed upon us at every moment of the day and night, and of which we are mostly unconscious.
The second aspect of prayer is laying our shortcomings before the unlimited perfection of the divine Being, and asking His forgiveness. This makes man conscious of his smallness, of his limitation, and therefore makes him humble before his God. And, by humbling himself before God man does not lose any virtue. God alone has the right to demand complete humility.
There is a beautiful story told of the King Akbar that when he was grieving with an almost ungovernable grief over the death of his mother, his ministers and friends tried to comfort him by influence and power. Akbar replied, "Yes, that is true, and that only makes my grief greater; for while I have everyone to bow before me, to give way to me, to salute me and obey me, my mother was the one person before whom I could humble myself; and I cannot tell you how great a joy that was to me."Think, then, of the far greater joy of humbling one-self before the Father-Mother God on Whose Love one can always depend. A spark only of love expresses itself in the human father and mother; the Whole of Love in God. In whatever manner a man humbles himself it can never be enough to express the humility of the limited self before Limitless Perfection.
peace,
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Peace alpha97. Very nice post. Inayat khan is a very interesting man,ive read bits of his book...Union with god/reality....now that should be the goal of all beings.
peace all. -
Peace ik,
praying towards ka'aba isn't praying TO Ka'aba or cube or what not, its the unity of the situation; that everyone else is facing that way. Yes a lot of them are idol worshippers, but you are held accountable for YOUR deeds not theirs, and in the Quran it states that whereever u go u must face it
Actually, if one takes "sujud" and "ruku" as physical prostration and bowing, then physically there is absolutely no difference between prostrating to and towards something.
So people who primarily interpret "sujud" as physical prostration and "masjid" as a physical building are actually physically prostrating to the cube.
Now, they will all start complaining that "intent" and what is in your heart is what matters. However, "intent" and all that are not physical so they are caught in their own contradictions. They are inevitably forced to admit that the primary meaning of "sujud" (and hence "masjid") is not physical.
The fact is that someone who has done physical sujud but disobeyed The God hasn't really done "sujud" so the primary meaning of "sujud" is obedience. Similarly, "masjid" is an institution of obedience that we are told is built on "taqwa" (forethought). I don't see any walls and ceilings in mosques using "taqwa" in place of bricks or mortar. But we can build on "taqwa" our institutions. This meaning of "masjid" as an institution not a physical place is even used today. For example, we often hear about "almasjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the walls and ceilings are the ones who issue the "fatwa".
Peace,
Ayman
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no bro, i only talk by the Quran, and intellect has nothing to do with it here, i guess the stupid ones will be the ones who talk without the Quran or the ones who manipulate its crystal clear meaning
Ahmed the above is rubbish. What do you mean intellect has nothing to do with Quran?
good morning bro
no bro it is not rubbish, i didn't say intellect has nothing to do with the Quran, this is a clear cut manipulation
i said, has nothing to do with it here, i mean the subject of the meaning of the Arabic word masjid
no bloody intellect is needed here, i was taught arabic when i was born and i was told this is a masjid, this is a plan, this is a bird, this is a dog etc etc, see, i was a child with almost no intellect and yet manged to grasp it and memorise it as such, like you with your native language
but nice try though lol
I am not picking and choosing the verses. In those verses if one simply stay away from a structural understanding of the world masjid, it all gets clear.
why i have to stay from the structural understanding of a meaning of any word?
After all why we need a place for submision? It does not make sense when people twist the term sujud (submission) to bowing or 5x parayers or worship, hence comes the mosques where prople go and bow, in a ritual. Its easy isn't it? When you do not have to serve/commit to the worldly task. With this mantality, nowonder we are lost.
the subject is not how many times a day we do sijood, the subject in hand is this
does Masjid means a place to perform sijood or not? and the answer is yes it meanns as such
Ahmed I think you should ponder on the Quran and use your intelect and information that we have today,
that is what i do, independentaly, i don't follow conjecture and that is why i try to understand the Quran as literal as possible and this is so easy for a native arabic speaker,
cross-referenece it with itself and all the knowlwdge that we have, rather than sticking to the traditional understanding of the Arabic language. And for God sake do not cut and paste the Quran as I am well informed of those translations. AS you say we are scientist, lets use a scientific approach.
Peace
now that is really BS and I'm sick and tired of this flawed argument that i'm sticking to the traditions, far out bro, if that is what you want to convince yourslef with, fine with me, but don't throw this accusation on public again at me, thanks
and for the Quran, no bro, i will keep doing what i do because i don't like others to just have a mere verse reference so the readers stop reading and try to find the verse in another location, it is so disturbing for the reader, and i post the arabic because that is what will stand in any argument i face, not the many flawed translations
now using our intellect, is fine, that is what i use but only in a simplified manner, i don't confuse others by trying to convince them with conjectures
salam
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Salam Ahmed,
You learning arabic since you were young doesn't mean anything to me. Many Arabs don't understand the Quran. Remember God didn't borrow the Arabic language from you or the Arabs, who claim to be masters of the language. Aditionally, if you love to worship the cube and do sujud to it then it fine as there is no complusion in the dinn. I will just serve through submission by contemplating on the haram (restrictions) in the submission (masjid). I also suggest you take a rest so that others can have a more productive discussion here lol
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Salam Ahmed,
salam bro
You learning arabic since you were young doesn't mean anything to me.
well, what is that kister scientist?, beased on the flawed argument above, you being a scientist means nothing to me lol
Many Arabs don't understand the Quran.
haha, as many scientists are indfidels lol
but I'm not of those ignorant arabs, i'm a professional native langugae speaker lol
Remember God didn't borrow the Arabic language from you or the Arabs,
this is a childish argument, however God chose Arabic to be used in His last warning to you and me, but bad luck to you if you ,ack arabic and sure bad luck to that arabs who lack arabic wink
who claim to be masters of the language.
conjecture and hearsay, who claimed to be a master in the language and you got him red handed? names, we need names, not hearsay and conjectures mister scientist
Aditionally, if you love to worship the cube and do sujud to it then it fine as there is no complusion in the dinn.
excuse me, how dare you tell me I'm worshipping a cube?, and how the hell you know that mister scientist?
I will just serve through submission by contemplating on the haram (restrictions) in the submission (masjid). I also suggest you take a rest so that others can have a more productive discussion here lol
lol, that is really non sense, so you want me to have a rest so others can have more productive conjectures? LOL
how about you have a rest and ignore my quran comments that refute you fair and square and also makes a scientist really look emarassing lol
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Salaamun alaikum AhmedBahgat,
Brother, you are a native Arabic speaker who knows the intricacies of the Arabic language and is well versed in the grammar and the language. Using the signs of the qur'aan and their context and your knowledge of the Arabic language, can you refute brother Ayman's post above quoted as follows ?
Actually, if one takes "sujud" and "ruku" as physical prostration and bowing, then physically there is absolutely no difference between prostrating to and towards something.
So people who primarily interpret "sujud" as physical prostration and "masjid" as a physical building are actually physically prostrating to the cube.
Now, they will all start complaining that "intent" and what is in your heart is what matters. However, "intent" and all that are not physical so they are caught in their own contradictions. They are inevitably forced to admit that the primary meaning of "sujud" (and hence "masjid") is not physical.
The fact is that someone who has done physical sujud but disobeyed The God hasn't really done "sujud" so the primary meaning of "sujud" is obedience. Similarly, "masjid" is an institution of obedience that we are told is built on "taqwa" (forethought). I don't see any walls and ceilings in mosques using "taqwa" in place of bricks or mortar. But we can build on "taqwa" our institutions. This meaning of "masjid" as an institution not a physical place is even used today. For example, we often hear about "almasjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the walls and ceilings are the ones who issue the "fatwa".
As a non Arabic speaking person I would be interested in knowing what you have to say about Ayman's post and whether you can provide an intellectual refutation based on the qur'aan.
622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.In the above ayaat The God talks about people who did set up partners but will deny it or will claim to be ignorant of it on the Last Day. From this one can deduce that one might commit an action which will make oneself an idolater without knowing that one will become an idolater due to that action, even though one's intention while committing that physical act might be something different (for example doing physical sujud in the direction of a cube building). Therefore, it follows that one has to be extremely careful of one's physical actions IN ADDITION to one's intentions.
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peace
i agree with Ayman. If a person was to perform 'sujud' physically, it doesn't mean that his heart and mind are performing sujud as well.
And just because a person isn't performing sujud physically, doesn't mean he/she is disobeying God.
You don't need to show God your obedience through physical prostration.
So it isn't the action that's important, it is the intent. -
even hollywood has got this one figured out
The cube
http//zappa.brainiac.com/spaceship/FedModels/wm08.jpegThe hive mind
http//oddlots.digitalspace.net/ARX/downloads/borg.jpgThe cube
http//www.french-ital.ucsb.edu/classes/images/mecca-kaaba.jpgThe hive mind
http//www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/06.23.04/gifs/muslims-0426-1.jpgPeace
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Salaamun alaikum AhmedBahgat,
Peace brother tanveermd
Brother, you are a native Arabic speaker who knows the intricacies of the Arabic language and is well versed in the grammar and the language.
Alhamdullelah brother, I guess I?m lucky to be as such, I liked the language in my early study and was doing great in it at schools
Using the signs of the qur'aan and their context and your knowledge of the Arabic language, can you refute brother Ayman's post above quoted as follows ?
Bro, the Quran is the only thing that can refute, I don?t really refute, I?m not a type of person who likes to challenge others on a personal level, I careless about it really, but when it comes to religion, there are many factors that will result in me responding or not, sure number one in the list is if I have knowledge from the Quran about it or not, if yes then I let the Quran speak, some other factors maybe the personality of the person raising the argument, this is very important indeed, another thing is the subject that we are discussing, all in all I concluded that I should avoid this subject, while I?m still reading all the others comments including Ayman?s ones, the subject ?with Ayman admission? is not important anyway, therefore I need not to contribute to further rumours and conjectures, but I will try to read below and see if I can say something briefly inshaallah
Actually, if one takes "sujud" and "ruku" as physical prostration and bowing, then physically there is absolutely no difference between prostrating to and towards something.
don?t know what is the above quote about really, it just cause a bit of confusion to others, that?s all, firstly we are ordered to do it this way toward that direction from Allah Himself, therefore the above quote has not merit
So people who primarily interpret "sujud" as physical prostration
sure it is a physical prostration, we read in the Quran that Allah ordred the angels to prostrate to Adam , now I don?t think that order was anything but to prostrate physically to Adam, as we were ordered numerous times to prostrate physically to Allah
and "masjid" as a physical building are actually physically prostrating to the cube.
we are not prostrating to a cube, we were ordered in the Quran to face a specific direction, that direction was identified as al masjid al haram, now all the historical evidences told us that it is in Mecca, any other suggestion is a conjecture, that conjectures even changed the clear Arabic name of a city called Mecca to a status of destruction, which is way too far for me
Now, they will all start complaining that "intent" and what is in your heart is what matters.
not sure what intent here
intent to do sijood?
or intent to face al masjid al haram while doing sijood?
No need for an answer, because both cases are orders from Allah in the Quran, so we have no intent but to follow these ordres, being humble/hypocrite or not, that is a totally different story
However, "intent" and all that are not physical so they are caught in their own contradictions. They are inevitably forced to admit that the primary meaning of "sujud" (and hence "masjid") is not physical.
not sure who is caught in the act bro?, but any way, Masjid is on the wazn Mafaal and this in the Arabic linguistic should mean a place, i.e. a place to perform sijood on it
The fact is that someone who has done physical sujud but disobeyed The God hasn't really done "sujud"
that is something to Allah to work out, isn?t He the only one who knows what is in our hearts?, but I agree that being a hypocrite while saying you believe in Allah and you perform Sijood is a very bad sin
so the primary meaning of "sujud" is obedience.Similarly,
no, the primary meaning of Sijood is a physical act of bowing down on the floor, Obedience means sort of to Obey but not to perform Sijood as far as the Arabic langugae is concerned
"masjid" is an institution of obedience that we are told is built on "taqwa" (forethought).
no I?m sorry, it is not, it is an Arabic word on the wazn of Mafaal and that wazn mean the place name of the root, anything else is clear cut conjecture, I shown enough quran verses to refute that non sense, period.
I don't see any walls and ceilings in mosques using "taqwa" in place of bricks or mortar. But we can build on "taqwa" our institutions. This meaning of "masjid" as an institution not a physical place is even used today. For example, we often hear about "almasjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the walls and ceilings are the ones who issue the "fatwa".
same as my last comment
As a non Arabic speaking person I would be interested in knowing what you have to say about Ayman's post and whether you can provide an intellectual refutation based on the qur'aan.
bro, I posted enough verses regarding this subject of Sijood, I suggest that you read the thread about it, I will try to find it for you
622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.In the above ayaat The God talks about people who did set up partners but will deny it or will claim to be ignorant of it on the Last Day. From this one can deduce that one might commit an action which will make oneself an idolater without knowing that one will become an idolater due to that action, even though one's intention while committing that physical act might be something different (for example doing physical sujud in the direction of a cube building). Therefore, it follows that one has to be extremely careful of one's physical actions IN ADDITION to one's intentions.
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran, secondly they also forgot that really to be an idol worshipper we need something that at least moves or a statue in the shape of it, like
- a sun
- a star
- a moon
- a planet
- a bird
- a cow
- a human
an animal - a snake
- any statue of the above
I can?t see a building fitting even closely to any of the above or to a new category on its own
they have no argument to accuse such God obedience Muslims as such man, They are only obeying what Allah told them to do, I for myself don?t give a fluke about any sort of buildings really, now those who kiss it or do whatever on it, I'm not sure what is their intensions or objectives to do as such, it is not ordered in the Quran really, all that is ordered is to face that direction, NOTHING MORE
peace man and I will try to find the url for you
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Here we go brother tanveermd
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5222&highlight=masjid
peace
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Peace,
I understand this is a real difficult subject, and i'm still investigating. But a couple of questions AB, you give the the angels as an example.
1.How do you know angels have bodies that can prostrate physicaly?
2.Ever wondered that there are no descriptions in the Quran about angels?
3.How can you explain the planets in Josefs dream prostrating? Doesn't this refer to being obedient to him?
4.Doesn't all that exist do ruku/sujood? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
5.Isn't all creation muslim/submitting? Doesn't that refer to obedience?And so long you haven't given answers like Ayman did, using crossreference, how the word salat, ruku, sujood are used, you just can't keep defending your concept. You have to explain your concept. I say this really out of interrest.
Peace
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Salaamun alaikum brother AhmedBahgat, all,
Thank you for the reply and the link brother Ahmed.
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran,
The order from Allah in the qur'aan is to make al-masjid al-haram the qiblah, not the "kaaba".
secondly they also forgot that really to be an idol worshipper we need something that at least moves or a statue in the shape of it, like
- a sun
- a star
- a moon
- a planet
- a bird
- a cow
- a human
an animal - a snake
- any statue of the above
I can?t see a building fitting even closely to any of the above or to a new category on its own
It is an archeological and historical fact that the statues of Dushara and Allat worshipped by the pagans of Arabia in pre-qur'aanic times were of the shape of cubes and rectangles similar to the shape of the present Kaaba in Mecca.
MEANING OF MASJID
I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud, but that place could be the heart or the mind as well. The heart and the mind are also a PLACE, and a PLACE does not have to be physical. In Arabic we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Now it is not a physical building that issued the fatwa but a group of people at an institution who issued the fatwa. Just like we say that the Senate or the Congress decided .......
So masjid is an institution or a place which could be both physical and mental. We have to look at the context of the verses in each case to determine if its usage implies physical or mental.
WHY AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE PHYSICAL
According to the context of 2144, al-masjid al-haram can only be mental and means the "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" which can easily be the mind or the heart. One can face this mental "masjid al-haram", "the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is. If al-masjid al-haram is physical then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is.
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards masjid al-haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
SCIENTIFIC PROOF
Now it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a focal point WHEREVER one is.
Firstly that assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is round. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ? Should one face one way or the opposite way then ? Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space, for example near MARS ?
PROOF FROM OTHER VERSES
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
This 2142 is clear cut proof that the qiblah could not have been physical. If it was physical, it will make no sense for The God to say "to God is the east and the west" in reply to the foolish questioning about the new focal point.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
All these verses and the above mentioned scientific facts prove that the focal point is not physical but mental.
HISTORICAL PROOF
Also at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, there is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of a PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of "masjid al-haram". That name was given to a physical building many years after the qur'aan was revealed so how could The God be referring to a physical building in the qur'aan when it did not even exist ?
The mind/heart is a PLACE, so of course it can be the masjid, especially "masjid al-haram" and one can face this "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is.
May Allah guide us all to the truth.
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Also it is intriguiging that most examples given by the Creator in His Quran, that have to do with Islam, sujood, ruku, salaat, are symbolic examples.
1.Animals knowing their Salat.
2.Shadows doing ruku/sujood.
3.Everything in the heaven and earth being muslim.
4.Planets doing sujood.
5.The ones in control(what we started to call angels, copying the Chrsitians) doing sujood.The most examples given in the Quran refer more to obedience then physical prayer. This is not taken away a physical prayer, because i know how important in a psychological term physical prayer can be, for me it is that the concept Salat in the Quran is ignored and changed by an outside sourch into something else. That is the most important factor for me, that we don't listen to Gods concept, but pre-programmed concepts.
Peace all...
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Peace,
Peace mate
I understand this is a real difficult subject, and i'm still investigating. But a couple of questions AB, you give the the angels as an example.
1.How do you know angels have bodies that can prostrate physicaly?
well, I know they can morh in human shapes, now how do you know that they were not morphed at the time?, see it is conjectures at the end of the day by you and me, therefore the question is not importantas we should not chase conjectures according to the Quran
2.Ever wondered that there are no descriptions in the Quran about angels?
you are wrong, there are a few descriptions about them, here is a couple of descriptions
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.(6)
Unless you mean a physical description?, but again, here is one
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Not sure what is you meant really bro?
3.How can you explain the planets in Josefs dream prostrating? Doesn't this refer to being obedient to him?
first of all we have a key word, ?DREAM?, i.e. expect the unexpected and surely any dream is nothing but a metaphor, now to answer your question about how the planets did it in the dream?, well, the Quran did not say how, therefore anyone trying to say anything will be rendered a conjecture, here is one conjecture ?I know most here like to follow conjectures?
possibly he was in a higher place than the planets and he was looking down seeing them under him ?, see a clear cut conjecture
4.Doesn't all that exist do ruku/sujood? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it only refer to Sijood, Rikooh was not mentioned in that dream
5.Isn't all creation muslim/submitting? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it does not, it was only referring to sijood, i.e. bowing down in submission and without being a hypocrite, on the other times where we don?t perform Sijood, our deeds should reflect that we are a God fearing humans who perform Sijood to Him, now following the laws and doing the other required practises and the good deeds all in all called obedience
And so long you haven't given answers like Ayman did, using crossreference, how the word salat, ruku, sujood are used, you just can't keep defending your concept. You have to explain your concept. I say this really out of interrest.
Peace
Not sure what you are trying to say above bro, but any way, I don?t promote any concepts, I promote the clear Arabic Quran as literal as possible unless there is a hint in the verse that it should not be taken literal, at the end of the day I always avoid to promote conjectures according to the Quran, but I?m sure I failed a few times and contributed to promote a couple of conjectures or slightly a bit more, therefore I have a lot of work to do to avoid this great sin
Peace bro, time to go to bed, i will respond to the rest of the comments tomorrow inshallah
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Salaamun alaikum brother AhmedBahgat, all,
Thank you for the reply and the link brother Ahmed.
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran,
The order from Allah in the qur'aan is to make al-masjid al-haram the qiblah, not the "kaaba".
secondly they also forgot that really to be an idol worshipper we need something that at least moves or a statue in the shape of it, like
- a sun
- a star
- a moon
- a planet
- a bird
- a cow
- a human
an animal - a snake
- any statue of the above
I can?t see a building fitting even closely to any of the above or to a new category on its own
It is an archeological and historical fact that the statues of Dushara and Allat worshipped by the pagans of Arabia in pre-qur'aanic times were of the shape of cubes and rectangles similar to the shape of the present Kaaba in Mecca.
MEANING OF MASJID
I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud, but that place could be the heart or the mind as well. The heart and the mind are also a PLACE, and a PLACE does not have to be physical. In Arabic we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Now it is not a physical building that issued the fatwa but a group of people at an institution who issued the fatwa. Just like we say that the Senate or the Congress decided .......
So masjid is an institution or a place which could be both physical and mental. We have to look at the context of the verses in each case to determine if its usage implies physical or mental.
WHY AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE PHYSICAL
According to the context of 2144, al-masjid al-haram can only be mental and means the "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" which can easily be the mind or the heart. One can face this mental "masjid al-haram", "the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is. If al-masjid al-haram is physical then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is.
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards masjid al-haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
SCIENTIFIC PROOF
Now it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a focal point WHEREVER one is.
Firstly that assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is round. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ? Should one face one way or the opposite way then ? Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space, for example near MARS ?
PROOF FROM OTHER VERSES
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
This 2142 is clear cut proof that the qiblah could not have been physical. If it was physical, it will make no sense for The God to say "to God is the east and the west" in reply to the foolish questioning about the new focal point.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
All these verses and the above mentioned scientific facts prove that the focal point is not physical but mental.
HISTORICAL PROOF
Also at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, there is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of a PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of "masjid al-haram". That name was given to a physical building many years after the qur'aan was revealed so how could The God be referring to a physical building in the qur'aan when it did not even exist ?
The mind/heart is a PLACE, so of course it can be the masjid, especially "masjid al-haram" and one can face this "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is.
May Allah guide us all to the truth.
Pecae brother tanveermd
please beofore i go to bed, i need to ask you a quick question before i respnd to the above tomorrow inshallah, is the long comment about masjid by you or by brother Ayman?
peace
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Peace,
Peace mate
I understand this is a real difficult subject, and i'm still investigating. But a couple of questions AB, you give the the angels as an example.
1.How do you know angels have bodies that can prostrate physicaly?
well, I know they can morh in human shapes, now how do you know that they were not morphed at the time?, see it is conjectures at the end of the day by you and me, therefore the question is not importantas we should not chase conjectures according to the Quran
I know one thing, that mainly our concepts of angels come from Christiantiy, and they got it from the Greeks, the angels with human-bodies and wings are the messengers of the pagan gods of ancient Greece.
2.Ever wondered that there are no descriptions in the Quran about angels?
you are wrong, there are a few descriptions about them, here is a couple of descriptions
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.(6)
Unless you mean a physical description?, but again, here is one
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Not sure what is you meant really bro?
Physical descriptions bro...
3.How can you explain the planets in Josefs dream prostrating? Doesn't this refer to being obedient to him?
first of all we have a key word, ?DREAM?, i.e. expect the unexpected and surely any dream is nothing but a metaphor, now to answer your question about how the planets did it in the dream?, well, the Quran did not say how, therefore anyone trying to say anything will be rendered a conjecture, here is one conjecture ?I know most here like to follow conjectures?
possibly he was in a higher place than the planets and he was looking down seeing them under him ?, see a clear cut conjecture
Prostration refer to a movement of will or body, not position, and if it was a dream or reality, the word sujood was used.
4.Doesn't all that exist do ruku/sujood? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it only refer to Sijood, Rikooh was not mentioned in that dream
That is why i mentioned both, i'm at work so i couldn't check which one it was. I had forgotten...
5.Isn't all creation muslim/submitting? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it does not, it was only referring to sijood, i.e. bowing down in submission and without being a hypocrite, on the other times where we don?t perform Sijood, our deeds should reflect that we are a God fearing humans who perform Sijood to Him, now following the laws and doing the other required practises and the good deeds all in all called obedience
This is the only concept that is really given in the Quran.
And so long you haven't given answers like Ayman did, using crossreference, how the word salat, ruku, sujood are used, you just can't keep defending your concept. You have to explain your concept. I say this really out of interrest.
Peace
Not sure what you are trying to say above bro, but any way, I don?t promote any concepts, I promote the clear Arabic Quran as literal as possible unless there is a hint in the verse that it should not be taken literal, at the end of the day I always avoid to promote conjectures according to the Quran, but I?m sure I failed a few times and contributed to promote a couple of conjectures or slightly a bit more, therefore I have a lot of work to do to avoid this great sin
You don't understand how i meant 'concept' then. Like the Christains use the word 'lord' for Jesus, so when they hear the word 'lord' in the Bible'they think it refers to Jesus. The meaning is filled in by tradition, not by the Bible itself. This is also the same for the word 'salat', in the Quranic meaning is given in several examples, while the tradition has also filled in the meaning. And you know what cross-reference is, use all the examples of the word used in the Quran to give the best meaning, just like with verse 434. This is what we have to do with salat, ruku, sujood.
Peace bro, time to go to bed, i will respond to the rest of the comments tomorrow inshallah
Sleep well bro...
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I know one thing, that mainly our concepts of angels come from Christiantiy, and they got it from the Greeks, the angels with human-bodies and wings are the messengers of the pagan gods of ancient Greece.
Salam man
could not sleep before i respond to you
evidences please and to make it concrete it should be from the Quran
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Physical descriptions bro...
come on bro, what more physical than the above?, here it is highlighted
"Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four"
do you tihnk i'm a fool or something man? lol , come on bro, give me a bit of credit that i possess an average human IQ, unless you consider the quran is only for the smart guys lol
Prostration refer to a movement of will or body, not position, and if it was a dream or reality, the word sujood was used.
mate, here is the verse with the word Sajideen highlighted
(4)
That is why i mentioned both, i'm at work so i couldn't check which one it was. I had forgotten...
ok, i will try to research the word ruku as well
This is the only concept that is really given in the Quran.
this is one of the many things we need to do to be called submitters as the Quran explained to us the laws
You don't understand how i meant 'concept' then. Like the Christains use the word 'lord' for Jesus, so when they hear the word 'lord' in the Bible'they think it refers to Jesus. The meaning is filled in by tradition, not by the Bible itself. This is also the same for the word 'salat', in the Quranic meaning is given in several examples, while the tradition has also filled in the meaning. And you know what cross-reference is, use all the examples of the word used in the Quran to give the best meaning, just like with verse 434. This is what we have to do with salat, ruku, sujood.
no bro i guess you don't get what i mean, what i meant is I'm a native arabic speaker, the examples you are showing are all in non native language to the original scriptures even the example you showed about the christian use of some words
unless again you want to write me off as a native and solid arabic speaker, which is your right to do and i have no problem with that, but i would like to know so i don't waste my time and your time
Sleep well bro...
Thank you man, however i could not sleep before i reply to you lol
take care man and sure i have to go to bed this time, no spell check also as i donlt use word lol
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I know one thing, that mainly our concepts of angels come from Christiantiy, and they got it from the Greeks, the angels with human-bodies and wings are the messengers of the pagan gods of ancient Greece.
Salam man
could not sleep before i respond to you
evidences please and to make it concrete it should be from the Quran
If the Quran doesn't tell us something that is from the unseen world, God thinks it can be described, or it is not necesarry for us to know. As to the history, ok.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/
Angels Images In Art History An Angelic Journey Through Time
Article written By artsales.com editor Chester Comstock Edited version appears in the Spring 2003 issue of "Sculptural Pursuit".
In the summer of 2002 I was invited by the Denver Sculpture Society to show my art at the "Joy of Sculpture" Exhibit, on Columbus Day weekend at the Colorado Historical Museum.The event was a reminder of the richness of sculptural talent that is available to those of you who have an interest in classical art forms. As fate and the muses would have it my exhibit at the Museum was right next to Rik Sargent?s personal exhibit, which had a heavy focus on angel images. My personal background and early training in the arts was steeped in art history and the study of classical themes. The catch is when I lived in Sedona Arizona one of my collectors an author Don Pendleton and his wife Linda, who wrote the unforgettable book ?To Dance with Angels?, had asked me to do an angel sculpture for their art collection.
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Byzantine Image of the Angel Michael 1000 AD
For those of you who do not know me, I have a personality and mind that tends to be somewhat obsessive compulsive in its basic make up. The effect of Don and Linda asking me to create an angel image was I made a study of the history of angel images, which resulted in covering the Iconography of angel imagery from pre-dynastic Egypt to modern times and tracing the evolution of similar themes through the far eastern cultures.
Through the years I have done many exhibits and met thousands of people within the context of showing my art to the public. Working in the environment of these exhibits resulted in my coming to the conclusion and realization that a viewer?s reactions to any given artwork are often very subjective and depend entirely on their personal background and experience as it relates to the art on display. Within the context of major art exhibits, an artist?s work can be seen to be primarily a pneumonic devise or external stimulus which stimulates the viewer?s subjective experience while viewing the art. This concept and idea leads naturally to the truism that artists as creators can literally transform the experience people have within the environment in which their art is displayed.
At the Joy of Sculpture exhibit these two axiomatic truths were quickly to become a hard-core reality for my own personal experience at the exhibit. For example it soon became apparent I couldn't pass through or be in Rik Sargent?s exhibit space without a flood of angel imagery and ideas entering my mind from my subconscious. The net effect of Rik?s exhibit on me personally was to trigger an outpouring of ideas which seemed to come automatically without prompting, well at least the art seemed to be doing the prompting. From my personal point of view the result of Rick?s exhibit was that his sculptures brought back the memories of my study of angel Iconography and Christian Icons. The images and ideas flooding into my concious mind were of concepts I had come across during my overview study of angel iconography. It was Rik's art that was sitmulating this response from my memory.
This article is an attempt to share some of these memories with the readers of this article.
To put things in chronological order, the earliest image in art history which I could find that seems to relate strongly to our modern Iconography of an angel was created 6000 years ago during the Naquada period of pre-dynastic Egypt in approximately 4000 BC. The Dancing Goddess images can be found both in pottery and petroglyphs in the Egyptian Eastern desert next to long established trading routes between the Red sea and the settlement of Naquada in the Nile river valley near Luxor.
This theme, The Dancing Goddess, in pottery clearly shows a link to an animistic version of the dancing goddess which is a combination of a bird with a human female body.
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Naqada Dancing Goddess
Pottery 4000 BCEhttp//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Dancing_Bird_Goddess.jpg
The Dancing Goddess theme with hands over her head can also be found in the Cypro Minoan and Malta cultures of the same historic time frame suggesting possible seafaring trading links between the Nile River valley and the Mediterranean island cultures.
The time frame for these seafaring links dates to at least 2000 years before the immigration of Abraham from Ur and at least 2500 years before the Hebrew's Biblical Exodus. This earliest sculptural angel image is called The Dancing Goddess and is an animistic bird goddess with her wings held above her head. This most primal and basic imagery remained fixed within the Egyptian culture and has evloved into several different forms in present time.
The iconography of the Gods in Egyptian culture nearly all had animistic origins and held strong associations with the primal forces of nature. The female body with bird head and/or wings evolved over time into the lexicon of feminine goddesses in the pantheon of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses and eventually evolved into the goddess images of Isis, and her sister Goddesses by the middle Egyptian Culture dating to approximatley 1800 BC.
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The iconography of Isis and her sister goddesses remained the dominant goddess image in the Egyptian culture until early Christian times, that is until about 600 CE. This means that this imagery and its mythologies evolved over and lasted an amazing 5,000 years of the human experience.
In 1998 by chance I was ask to do an interpretation of what the "Ark of the Covenant" may have looked like by a pastor in Denver. My personal approach to this problem was to put the concept of the ark into its chronological and geographical context in art history in order to interpolate what it may have looked like.
This project was a genuine challenge and I felt it deserved its own thesis because of the interest level in the subject. You can read my thesis and conclusions by using the links in the image below and the red text links.
The likely appearance of the "Ark of the Covenant" Based on its Chronological and Geographical
placement in the evolution of Angel iconography.Purchase this Image as printSee Chester Comstock's thesis and research.
By 875 BCE similar winged figures called ?Apkallu? could be found in the city of Nimrud in Assyria in sculptural relief on the palace walls. The winged figures within the Egyptian culture had been primarily of the feminine gender however the Nimrud guardian angels were primarily male in gender.
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Angel of Nimrud 875 BCE
The Greeks through their contacts with Egypt had adopted the Isis image and by the Hellenistic period approximately 500 BC transmuted the theme into the Goddess Nike. The Egyptian portrayal of the Bah (the spirit of a man) was also borrowed by the Greeks and became the representation of the classical literary theme of the Sirens.
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Bronze Image of Nike from the 6th Century BCE
The Greek Nike image is the basis for the winged sculpture of Victory on the prow of a ship which is on display in the Louvre in Paris France.
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Victory, "Nike" Hellenistic Greek Statue
550 BCThe sculptural image of the Hellenistic Greek winged Goddess Nike and her son Eros remain the historic and classical basis for Christian angel iconography used from the 1st century AD until modern times, having changed little over the last 2600 years. These Christian Icons, angels and cherubim, had their Greek and Roman Counterparts.
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Greek Nike Image from Attic Pottery 550 BCE
It may be surprising that the Hebrew culture is not the primary source of our angel imagery but that the modern concepts are primarily Greek in their origins and those were derived from earlier Egyptian influences. The Hebrews emphasis on an iconoclastic approach to their worship seems to have precluded making sculptural and artistic representations of angels within their culture. The Greeks on the other hand had no such limitations placed on their artistic expression.
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Angels of Death 515BC Greek Krater
This theme was repeated in the Roman Culture as the winged Goddess Victory and was prominent throughout the Roman Culture. My favorite example of this theme in Roman sculpture is the personal portrait of Augustus the absolute ruler of Rome from 3o BCE- 14 CE.
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Example of the use of an angel image in the Roman Culture.
It was Augustus Ceasar the absolute Ruler of Rome that issued the order for a census of the Jewish territories held under Herod the Great that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem in the scriptural story of the birth of Jesus.
See Mathew Chapters 1-2
The early Christian Church, particularly the Byzantine Church between 400 AD and 600 AD, was responsible for adapting and transmuting the Greek and Roman goddess imagery into the lexicon of Christian iconographies in angel art.It is my personal opinion that the development of Byzantine Angel Iconography was one of the most creative periods within the history of angel art bringing many new visual interpretations of angels to the forefront. For example the Iconographic development of the six winged angel image of the seraphim can be dated to the Byzantine period as well as many other imaginative adaptations.
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Seraphim Mosaic from Greek Orthodox Church
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Seraphim Sculpture Anglican Church 18th Century England
During the European middle ages of 1100-1500 AD angel imagery changed little from its Byzantine origins except for the individual artists style and talent. During the middle ages the literary context of the European culture became replete with angel lore in which stories about both Light and Dark Angels became the explanations for almost every natural phenomenon.http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/m_on_buraq.jpg
The ascension of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from 16th century Iran
In Islamic tradition from at least the 14th century, the Buraq myth, combines elements of ancient depictions of griffins, sphinxes, and centaurs, as well as angels and became a favorite subject of Persian miniature painting. The story is of the ascension of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven. The Buraq was depicted as Muhammad's means of access into heaven.The Italian Renaissance saw the improvement of artistic techniques and the resurrection of lost art forms and classical themes particularly in sculpture but the basic angel images changed little from their Hellenistic Greek forms. This historic period was marked with a dramatic renewal in the arts and the application of the basic sciences and scientific procedures.
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Russian Orthodox Church 16th Century
In Europe the die was cast for the conventions ofAngel Iconography in the hellenistic Greek period and these remained consistent for hundreds of years and now for several millennia. The Baroque and Rococo periods of art found the heaven on earth theme taken to new levels of richness and complexity. This trend ended with the humanistic French Revolution.
.
"Heaven on Earth" theme as developed
in 16th Century Toledo Spain, this theme was heightened
and further developed in the Baroque and Rococo traditionshttp//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/42.jpg
The romantic and Victorian Era created the most ostentatious contributions to the visions of angels with Queen Victoria's and prince Albert's memorial , nothing has been created since the construction of these monuments that compares.
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The height of Romantic visions is represented by the Ascension of Mary Magellan in the Church of the Magdalein in Paris France. Created by Carlos Marochetti who also did the facade on the Arc de Triumph and queen Victoria's Memorial all prominently featuring romanticized angel images.
The trend toward the ostentatious mostly ended with the humanistic French Revolution and the introduction of more scientific paradigms of thinking. However the Victorian era proved once again that you can flaunt it if you have it regardless of good taste and common scense.http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Lament_for_Icarus_Herbert_Draper.jpg
Romantic imagery from 19th century artist
Herbert James Draper "The Lament to Icarus"Upon examination of angel images little changed in basic angel iconography during the period from Hellenistic Greek representations of Nike to the Romantic Era except for the wider application of the basic visual concepts to additional literary and religious themes. The basic concept developed in Hellenistic greek culture was used in all subsequent periods of European Art. This trend continued and found the reconstituted classical image applied to interests in mythological, historic and Biblical themes. The imagery was nearly universely accepted and applied by different artists according to local cultural tastes and their individual and personal style. However the accepted concept of what represents an angel had its roots with the Hellenistic Greeks and has had a run of popular acceptance for an amazing 2500 years.
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Yoshitoshi Taiso, 1839-1892 ghost of Sasaki Kiyotaka
from the series "Tsuki Hyakushi"Not to be ignored are the Japanese artists who illustrated both benevolent and evil spirits in their art. The Japanese had a wonderful and matter of fact relationship with the spiritual world and this is reflected in their mythology and literature. One of the most poignant of these images is from the series "Tsuki Hyakushi" (One Hundred Aspects of the Moon) the maiden Iga-no-Tsubone encounters the ghost of Sasaki Kiyotaka. Walking the world as a troubled spirit he complained to her that he had been accused of conducting an ill fated military campaign and was forced to commit suicide. Tsubone calmly appeased him and he never appeared to her again. This encounter is illustrated in a way that is both beautiful and dramatic, one of the best designs of the One Hundred Aspects of the Moon series.
In conclusion Although the basic angel image, a winged human figure, has undergone the transmutations and changes of culture, context, language, religion, literature and commercialization for the singular sake of selling feminine lingerie, through five millennia of human history the visual effect of this conception remains consistent through time. It still has the power to create wonder, awe and inspiration, which is an extrodiary and valuable testament to the universal and timeless appeal and power of the visual arts.
Victoria's Secrets Commercial use of the Angel Image for the promotion
and sale of their lingerie is less than forgettable.As we enter the new Millennium, with an understanding of relativity and as science pushes back the edges of time and the known Cosmos with deep space telescopes it may be prudent to suggest a greater paradigm for the perception of an angel image. As our ancestors drew inspiration from nature and their know universe for the creation of goddess and angel images, with a little imagination it is easy to connect the dots and to find the image of a "Goddess of the night sky" (Nut) , a "Nike", a "Winged Victory", an "Icarus" or an "Arch Angel" in the cosmic dust and stars of the Orion nebula M42_43 where universes and planetary systems, similar to that of our own sun, are currently being born.
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Physical descriptions bro...
come on bro, what more physical than the above?, here it is highlighted
"Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four"
do you tihnk i'm a fool or something man? lol , come on bro, give me a bit of credit that i possess an average human IQ, unless you consider the quran is only for the smart guys lol
I would never think your a fool, but i know we have to be carefull when we read somethings...
Defenition wings
wing (wng)
n.
One of a pair of movable organs for flying, as the feather-covered modified forelimb of a bird or the skin-covered modified digits of the forelimb of a bat.
Any of usually four membranous organs for flying that extend from the thorax of an insect.
A winglike organ or structure used for flying, as the folds of skin of a flying squirrel or the enlarged pectoral fin of a flying fish.
Botany.
A thin or membranous extension, such as of the fruit of the elm, maple, or ash or of the seed of the pine.
One of the lateral petals of the flower of a pea or of most plants in the pea family.Informal. An arm of a human.
An airfoil whose principal function is providing lift, especially either of two such airfoils symmetrically positioned on each side of the fuselage of an aircraft.
Something that resembles a wing in appearance, function, or position relative to a main body.The act or manner of flying.
A means of flight or rapid movement Fear lent wings to his feet.Something, such as a weathervane, that is moved by or moves against the air.
The sail of a ship.
Chiefly British. The fender of a motor vehicle.
A folding section, as of a double door or of a movable partition.
Either of the two side projections on the back of a wing chair.A flat of theatrical scenery projecting onto the stage from the side.
wings The unseen backstage area on either side of the stage of a proscenium theater.
A structure attached to and connected internally with the side of a main building.
A section of a large building devoted to a specific purpose the children's wing of the hospital.
A group affiliated with or subordinate to an older or larger organization.Either of two groups with opposing views within a larger group; a faction.
A section of a party, legislature, or community holding distinct, especially dissenting, political views the conservative wing.Either the left or right flank of an army or a naval fleet.
An air force unit larger than a group but smaller than a division.
Sports.
Either of the forward positions played near the sideline, especially in hockey.
A player who plays such a position.
wings An outspread pair of stylized bird's wings worn as insignia by qualified pilots or air crew members.v., winged, wing?ing, wings.
v.intr.
To move on or as if on wings; fly.v.tr.
To furnish with wings.
To cause or enable to fly or speed swiftly along.To feather (an arrow).To pass over or through with or as if with wings.
To carry or transport by or as if by flying.
To effect or accomplish by flying.
To throw or dispatch (a ball, for example).To wound the wing of (a game bird, for example).
To wound superficially, as in an appendage.
To furnish with side or subordinate extensions, as a building or an altarpiece.
idioms
in the wingsIn the stage wings, unseen by the audience.
Close by in the background; available at short notice a presidential candidate waiting in the wings.
on the wing
In flight; flying.
take wing
To fly off; soar away.
under (one's) wing
Under one's protection; in one's care.
wing it Informal.
To say or do something without preparation, forethought, or sufficient information or experience; improvise She hadn't studied for the exam, so she decided to wing it.As you can see "wings" can be taken in several ways. So to which definition do you refer then? And where is your logic and proof behind it?
This is the only concept that is really given in the Quran.
this is one of the many things we need to do to be called submitters as the Quran explained to us the laws
exactly....
You don't understand how i meant 'concept' then. Like the Christains use the word 'lord' for Jesus, so when they hear the word 'lord' in the Bible'they think it refers to Jesus. The meaning is filled in by tradition, not by the Bible itself. This is also the same for the word 'salat', in the Quranic meaning is given in several examples, while the tradition has also filled in the meaning. And you know what cross-reference is, use all the examples of the word used in the Quran to give the best meaning, just like with verse 434. This is what we have to do with salat, ruku, sujood.
no bro i guess you don't get what i mean, what i meant is I'm a native arabic speaker, the examples you are showing are all in non native language to the original scriptures even the example you showed about the christian use of some words
You don't know what i am talking about i see, it has nothing to do with language or not, which language or book or faith. It has to do with conceptions, ideas about how you see the word used in life, how it was thaught to you what it means. This has nothing to do with being a native speaker or not, this has to do with perception of words and definitions and meanings. This has to do if the word 'salat' really was used as to mean prayer during Mohammed's time.
Ahmed Ali on the meaning of Salat
Salat as As-sala meant middle of the back, a horse that is second in a race, and as salia-wastala dependence, adherence, attachment. In the Quran salat acquired the conceptual meanings of devotion, adherence to God and His commands, fulfilling one?s duties and obligations as behoves an ?abd, creature, servant, devotee of God, as integral part of ?ubudiyat, servitude and devotion, made clear in 2441 which underlines that every creature in the heavens and the earth knows its salat, duties and obligations.
The Quran, thus, brings to the mind its real objects from words by invoking the images imbedded in the subconcious. For though the words remain the same, they often acquire new conceptual meanings and new dimensions lying hidden in their roots, which are brought out by the Quran, and now form part of its linguistic and intellectual dynamism. At the same time they become removed from the Jahiliya which was more of an attitude of mind and culture than a state of ignorance, as well as the later world as unfolded by the changing patterns of history, thought and language, so that anyone interpreting the Quran on the basis as used by Arabs today would only misled the readers of the Book.
As you can see, the word salat was used in a total different way in the ancient times, so when did it got also the meaning of prayer? By whom? The Quran uses it in different ways, so who has explained the concept of how to use the word salat? Isn't it logical then to see in what way God uses it in His Quran? He teaches us how He means it. This is the only research that can prove it. Who thaught you it also means physical prayer? Not the ancient dictionaries. This is the answer we are looking for, so your referrences you are a native speaker, doesn't apply at all when we investigate concepts, because we have to understand who thaught you, your concept of understanding the word, how to read it, what kind of meaning it has in a verse and so on.
This is what i am investigating, and till now, just saying it means prayer is not enough.
Peace