Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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Salaamun alaikum brother AhmedBahgat, all,
Thank you for the reply and the link brother Ahmed.
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran,
The order from Allah in the qur'aan is to make al-masjid al-haram the qiblah, not the "kaaba".
secondly they also forgot that really to be an idol worshipper we need something that at least moves or a statue in the shape of it, like
- a sun
- a star
- a moon
- a planet
- a bird
- a cow
- a human
an animal - a snake
- any statue of the above
I can?t see a building fitting even closely to any of the above or to a new category on its own
It is an archeological and historical fact that the statues of Dushara and Allat worshipped by the pagans of Arabia in pre-qur'aanic times were of the shape of cubes and rectangles similar to the shape of the present Kaaba in Mecca.
MEANING OF MASJID
I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud, but that place could be the heart or the mind as well. The heart and the mind are also a PLACE, and a PLACE does not have to be physical. In Arabic we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Now it is not a physical building that issued the fatwa but a group of people at an institution who issued the fatwa. Just like we say that the Senate or the Congress decided .......
So masjid is an institution or a place which could be both physical and mental. We have to look at the context of the verses in each case to determine if its usage implies physical or mental.
WHY AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE PHYSICAL
According to the context of 2144, al-masjid al-haram can only be mental and means the "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" which can easily be the mind or the heart. One can face this mental "masjid al-haram", "the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is. If al-masjid al-haram is physical then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is.
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards masjid al-haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
SCIENTIFIC PROOF
Now it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a focal point WHEREVER one is.
Firstly that assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is round. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ? Should one face one way or the opposite way then ? Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space, for example near MARS ?
PROOF FROM OTHER VERSES
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
This 2142 is clear cut proof that the qiblah could not have been physical. If it was physical, it will make no sense for The God to say "to God is the east and the west" in reply to the foolish questioning about the new focal point.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
All these verses and the above mentioned scientific facts prove that the focal point is not physical but mental.
HISTORICAL PROOF
Also at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, there is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of a PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of "masjid al-haram". That name was given to a physical building many years after the qur'aan was revealed so how could The God be referring to a physical building in the qur'aan when it did not even exist ?
The mind/heart is a PLACE, so of course it can be the masjid, especially "masjid al-haram" and one can face this "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is.
May Allah guide us all to the truth.
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Also it is intriguiging that most examples given by the Creator in His Quran, that have to do with Islam, sujood, ruku, salaat, are symbolic examples.
1.Animals knowing their Salat.
2.Shadows doing ruku/sujood.
3.Everything in the heaven and earth being muslim.
4.Planets doing sujood.
5.The ones in control(what we started to call angels, copying the Chrsitians) doing sujood.The most examples given in the Quran refer more to obedience then physical prayer. This is not taken away a physical prayer, because i know how important in a psychological term physical prayer can be, for me it is that the concept Salat in the Quran is ignored and changed by an outside sourch into something else. That is the most important factor for me, that we don't listen to Gods concept, but pre-programmed concepts.
Peace all...
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Peace,
Peace mate
I understand this is a real difficult subject, and i'm still investigating. But a couple of questions AB, you give the the angels as an example.
1.How do you know angels have bodies that can prostrate physicaly?
well, I know they can morh in human shapes, now how do you know that they were not morphed at the time?, see it is conjectures at the end of the day by you and me, therefore the question is not importantas we should not chase conjectures according to the Quran
2.Ever wondered that there are no descriptions in the Quran about angels?
you are wrong, there are a few descriptions about them, here is a couple of descriptions
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.(6)
Unless you mean a physical description?, but again, here is one
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Not sure what is you meant really bro?
3.How can you explain the planets in Josefs dream prostrating? Doesn't this refer to being obedient to him?
first of all we have a key word, ?DREAM?, i.e. expect the unexpected and surely any dream is nothing but a metaphor, now to answer your question about how the planets did it in the dream?, well, the Quran did not say how, therefore anyone trying to say anything will be rendered a conjecture, here is one conjecture ?I know most here like to follow conjectures?
possibly he was in a higher place than the planets and he was looking down seeing them under him ?, see a clear cut conjecture
4.Doesn't all that exist do ruku/sujood? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it only refer to Sijood, Rikooh was not mentioned in that dream
5.Isn't all creation muslim/submitting? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it does not, it was only referring to sijood, i.e. bowing down in submission and without being a hypocrite, on the other times where we don?t perform Sijood, our deeds should reflect that we are a God fearing humans who perform Sijood to Him, now following the laws and doing the other required practises and the good deeds all in all called obedience
And so long you haven't given answers like Ayman did, using crossreference, how the word salat, ruku, sujood are used, you just can't keep defending your concept. You have to explain your concept. I say this really out of interrest.
Peace
Not sure what you are trying to say above bro, but any way, I don?t promote any concepts, I promote the clear Arabic Quran as literal as possible unless there is a hint in the verse that it should not be taken literal, at the end of the day I always avoid to promote conjectures according to the Quran, but I?m sure I failed a few times and contributed to promote a couple of conjectures or slightly a bit more, therefore I have a lot of work to do to avoid this great sin
Peace bro, time to go to bed, i will respond to the rest of the comments tomorrow inshallah
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Salaamun alaikum brother AhmedBahgat, all,
Thank you for the reply and the link brother Ahmed.
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran,
The order from Allah in the qur'aan is to make al-masjid al-haram the qiblah, not the "kaaba".
secondly they also forgot that really to be an idol worshipper we need something that at least moves or a statue in the shape of it, like
- a sun
- a star
- a moon
- a planet
- a bird
- a cow
- a human
an animal - a snake
- any statue of the above
I can?t see a building fitting even closely to any of the above or to a new category on its own
It is an archeological and historical fact that the statues of Dushara and Allat worshipped by the pagans of Arabia in pre-qur'aanic times were of the shape of cubes and rectangles similar to the shape of the present Kaaba in Mecca.
MEANING OF MASJID
I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud, but that place could be the heart or the mind as well. The heart and the mind are also a PLACE, and a PLACE does not have to be physical. In Arabic we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Now it is not a physical building that issued the fatwa but a group of people at an institution who issued the fatwa. Just like we say that the Senate or the Congress decided .......
So masjid is an institution or a place which could be both physical and mental. We have to look at the context of the verses in each case to determine if its usage implies physical or mental.
WHY AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE PHYSICAL
According to the context of 2144, al-masjid al-haram can only be mental and means the "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" which can easily be the mind or the heart. One can face this mental "masjid al-haram", "the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is. If al-masjid al-haram is physical then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is.
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards masjid al-haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
SCIENTIFIC PROOF
Now it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a focal point WHEREVER one is.
Firstly that assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is round. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ? Should one face one way or the opposite way then ? Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space, for example near MARS ?
PROOF FROM OTHER VERSES
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
This 2142 is clear cut proof that the qiblah could not have been physical. If it was physical, it will make no sense for The God to say "to God is the east and the west" in reply to the foolish questioning about the new focal point.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
All these verses and the above mentioned scientific facts prove that the focal point is not physical but mental.
HISTORICAL PROOF
Also at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, there is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of a PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of "masjid al-haram". That name was given to a physical building many years after the qur'aan was revealed so how could The God be referring to a physical building in the qur'aan when it did not even exist ?
The mind/heart is a PLACE, so of course it can be the masjid, especially "masjid al-haram" and one can face this "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is.
May Allah guide us all to the truth.
Pecae brother tanveermd
please beofore i go to bed, i need to ask you a quick question before i respnd to the above tomorrow inshallah, is the long comment about masjid by you or by brother Ayman?
peace
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Peace,
Peace mate
I understand this is a real difficult subject, and i'm still investigating. But a couple of questions AB, you give the the angels as an example.
1.How do you know angels have bodies that can prostrate physicaly?
well, I know they can morh in human shapes, now how do you know that they were not morphed at the time?, see it is conjectures at the end of the day by you and me, therefore the question is not importantas we should not chase conjectures according to the Quran
I know one thing, that mainly our concepts of angels come from Christiantiy, and they got it from the Greeks, the angels with human-bodies and wings are the messengers of the pagan gods of ancient Greece.
2.Ever wondered that there are no descriptions in the Quran about angels?
you are wrong, there are a few descriptions about them, here is a couple of descriptions
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.(6)
Unless you mean a physical description?, but again, here is one
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Not sure what is you meant really bro?
Physical descriptions bro...
3.How can you explain the planets in Josefs dream prostrating? Doesn't this refer to being obedient to him?
first of all we have a key word, ?DREAM?, i.e. expect the unexpected and surely any dream is nothing but a metaphor, now to answer your question about how the planets did it in the dream?, well, the Quran did not say how, therefore anyone trying to say anything will be rendered a conjecture, here is one conjecture ?I know most here like to follow conjectures?
possibly he was in a higher place than the planets and he was looking down seeing them under him ?, see a clear cut conjecture
Prostration refer to a movement of will or body, not position, and if it was a dream or reality, the word sujood was used.
4.Doesn't all that exist do ruku/sujood? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it only refer to Sijood, Rikooh was not mentioned in that dream
That is why i mentioned both, i'm at work so i couldn't check which one it was. I had forgotten...
5.Isn't all creation muslim/submitting? Doesn't that refer to obedience?
no it does not, it was only referring to sijood, i.e. bowing down in submission and without being a hypocrite, on the other times where we don?t perform Sijood, our deeds should reflect that we are a God fearing humans who perform Sijood to Him, now following the laws and doing the other required practises and the good deeds all in all called obedience
This is the only concept that is really given in the Quran.
And so long you haven't given answers like Ayman did, using crossreference, how the word salat, ruku, sujood are used, you just can't keep defending your concept. You have to explain your concept. I say this really out of interrest.
Peace
Not sure what you are trying to say above bro, but any way, I don?t promote any concepts, I promote the clear Arabic Quran as literal as possible unless there is a hint in the verse that it should not be taken literal, at the end of the day I always avoid to promote conjectures according to the Quran, but I?m sure I failed a few times and contributed to promote a couple of conjectures or slightly a bit more, therefore I have a lot of work to do to avoid this great sin
You don't understand how i meant 'concept' then. Like the Christains use the word 'lord' for Jesus, so when they hear the word 'lord' in the Bible'they think it refers to Jesus. The meaning is filled in by tradition, not by the Bible itself. This is also the same for the word 'salat', in the Quranic meaning is given in several examples, while the tradition has also filled in the meaning. And you know what cross-reference is, use all the examples of the word used in the Quran to give the best meaning, just like with verse 434. This is what we have to do with salat, ruku, sujood.
Peace bro, time to go to bed, i will respond to the rest of the comments tomorrow inshallah
Sleep well bro...
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I know one thing, that mainly our concepts of angels come from Christiantiy, and they got it from the Greeks, the angels with human-bodies and wings are the messengers of the pagan gods of ancient Greece.
Salam man
could not sleep before i respond to you
evidences please and to make it concrete it should be from the Quran
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Physical descriptions bro...
come on bro, what more physical than the above?, here it is highlighted
"Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four"
do you tihnk i'm a fool or something man? lol , come on bro, give me a bit of credit that i possess an average human IQ, unless you consider the quran is only for the smart guys lol
Prostration refer to a movement of will or body, not position, and if it was a dream or reality, the word sujood was used.
mate, here is the verse with the word Sajideen highlighted
(4)
That is why i mentioned both, i'm at work so i couldn't check which one it was. I had forgotten...
ok, i will try to research the word ruku as well
This is the only concept that is really given in the Quran.
this is one of the many things we need to do to be called submitters as the Quran explained to us the laws
You don't understand how i meant 'concept' then. Like the Christains use the word 'lord' for Jesus, so when they hear the word 'lord' in the Bible'they think it refers to Jesus. The meaning is filled in by tradition, not by the Bible itself. This is also the same for the word 'salat', in the Quranic meaning is given in several examples, while the tradition has also filled in the meaning. And you know what cross-reference is, use all the examples of the word used in the Quran to give the best meaning, just like with verse 434. This is what we have to do with salat, ruku, sujood.
no bro i guess you don't get what i mean, what i meant is I'm a native arabic speaker, the examples you are showing are all in non native language to the original scriptures even the example you showed about the christian use of some words
unless again you want to write me off as a native and solid arabic speaker, which is your right to do and i have no problem with that, but i would like to know so i don't waste my time and your time
Sleep well bro...
Thank you man, however i could not sleep before i reply to you lol
take care man and sure i have to go to bed this time, no spell check also as i donlt use word lol
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I know one thing, that mainly our concepts of angels come from Christiantiy, and they got it from the Greeks, the angels with human-bodies and wings are the messengers of the pagan gods of ancient Greece.
Salam man
could not sleep before i respond to you
evidences please and to make it concrete it should be from the Quran
If the Quran doesn't tell us something that is from the unseen world, God thinks it can be described, or it is not necesarry for us to know. As to the history, ok.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/
Angels Images In Art History An Angelic Journey Through Time
Article written By artsales.com editor Chester Comstock Edited version appears in the Spring 2003 issue of "Sculptural Pursuit".
In the summer of 2002 I was invited by the Denver Sculpture Society to show my art at the "Joy of Sculpture" Exhibit, on Columbus Day weekend at the Colorado Historical Museum.The event was a reminder of the richness of sculptural talent that is available to those of you who have an interest in classical art forms. As fate and the muses would have it my exhibit at the Museum was right next to Rik Sargent?s personal exhibit, which had a heavy focus on angel images. My personal background and early training in the arts was steeped in art history and the study of classical themes. The catch is when I lived in Sedona Arizona one of my collectors an author Don Pendleton and his wife Linda, who wrote the unforgettable book ?To Dance with Angels?, had asked me to do an angel sculpture for their art collection.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Angel_Byzantine_1000_A_C.jpg
Byzantine Image of the Angel Michael 1000 AD
For those of you who do not know me, I have a personality and mind that tends to be somewhat obsessive compulsive in its basic make up. The effect of Don and Linda asking me to create an angel image was I made a study of the history of angel images, which resulted in covering the Iconography of angel imagery from pre-dynastic Egypt to modern times and tracing the evolution of similar themes through the far eastern cultures.
Through the years I have done many exhibits and met thousands of people within the context of showing my art to the public. Working in the environment of these exhibits resulted in my coming to the conclusion and realization that a viewer?s reactions to any given artwork are often very subjective and depend entirely on their personal background and experience as it relates to the art on display. Within the context of major art exhibits, an artist?s work can be seen to be primarily a pneumonic devise or external stimulus which stimulates the viewer?s subjective experience while viewing the art. This concept and idea leads naturally to the truism that artists as creators can literally transform the experience people have within the environment in which their art is displayed.
At the Joy of Sculpture exhibit these two axiomatic truths were quickly to become a hard-core reality for my own personal experience at the exhibit. For example it soon became apparent I couldn't pass through or be in Rik Sargent?s exhibit space without a flood of angel imagery and ideas entering my mind from my subconscious. The net effect of Rik?s exhibit on me personally was to trigger an outpouring of ideas which seemed to come automatically without prompting, well at least the art seemed to be doing the prompting. From my personal point of view the result of Rick?s exhibit was that his sculptures brought back the memories of my study of angel Iconography and Christian Icons. The images and ideas flooding into my concious mind were of concepts I had come across during my overview study of angel iconography. It was Rik's art that was sitmulating this response from my memory.
This article is an attempt to share some of these memories with the readers of this article.
To put things in chronological order, the earliest image in art history which I could find that seems to relate strongly to our modern Iconography of an angel was created 6000 years ago during the Naquada period of pre-dynastic Egypt in approximately 4000 BC. The Dancing Goddess images can be found both in pottery and petroglyphs in the Egyptian Eastern desert next to long established trading routes between the Red sea and the settlement of Naquada in the Nile river valley near Luxor.
This theme, The Dancing Goddess, in pottery clearly shows a link to an animistic version of the dancing goddess which is a combination of a bird with a human female body.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Dancing_Goddess_Petroglyph.jpg
Naqada Dancing Goddess
Pottery 4000 BCEhttp//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Dancing_Bird_Goddess.jpg
The Dancing Goddess theme with hands over her head can also be found in the Cypro Minoan and Malta cultures of the same historic time frame suggesting possible seafaring trading links between the Nile River valley and the Mediterranean island cultures.
The time frame for these seafaring links dates to at least 2000 years before the immigration of Abraham from Ur and at least 2500 years before the Hebrew's Biblical Exodus. This earliest sculptural angel image is called The Dancing Goddess and is an animistic bird goddess with her wings held above her head. This most primal and basic imagery remained fixed within the Egyptian culture and has evloved into several different forms in present time.
The iconography of the Gods in Egyptian culture nearly all had animistic origins and held strong associations with the primal forces of nature. The female body with bird head and/or wings evolved over time into the lexicon of feminine goddesses in the pantheon of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses and eventually evolved into the goddess images of Isis, and her sister Goddesses by the middle Egyptian Culture dating to approximatley 1800 BC.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Isis_on_granite_sarcophagus.jpg
The iconography of Isis and her sister goddesses remained the dominant goddess image in the Egyptian culture until early Christian times, that is until about 600 CE. This means that this imagery and its mythologies evolved over and lasted an amazing 5,000 years of the human experience.
In 1998 by chance I was ask to do an interpretation of what the "Ark of the Covenant" may have looked like by a pastor in Denver. My personal approach to this problem was to put the concept of the ark into its chronological and geographical context in art history in order to interpolate what it may have looked like.
This project was a genuine challenge and I felt it deserved its own thesis because of the interest level in the subject. You can read my thesis and conclusions by using the links in the image below and the red text links.
The likely appearance of the "Ark of the Covenant" Based on its Chronological and Geographical
placement in the evolution of Angel iconography.Purchase this Image as printSee Chester Comstock's thesis and research.
By 875 BCE similar winged figures called ?Apkallu? could be found in the city of Nimrud in Assyria in sculptural relief on the palace walls. The winged figures within the Egyptian culture had been primarily of the feminine gender however the Nimrud guardian angels were primarily male in gender.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Angel_Apkuallu_Nimrud.jpg
Angel of Nimrud 875 BCE
The Greeks through their contacts with Egypt had adopted the Isis image and by the Hellenistic period approximately 500 BC transmuted the theme into the Goddess Nike. The Egyptian portrayal of the Bah (the spirit of a man) was also borrowed by the Greeks and became the representation of the classical literary theme of the Sirens.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Nike_550_BC_C.jpg
Bronze Image of Nike from the 6th Century BCE
The Greek Nike image is the basis for the winged sculpture of Victory on the prow of a ship which is on display in the Louvre in Paris France.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Victory_Nike.jpg
Victory, "Nike" Hellenistic Greek Statue
550 BCThe sculptural image of the Hellenistic Greek winged Goddess Nike and her son Eros remain the historic and classical basis for Christian angel iconography used from the 1st century AD until modern times, having changed little over the last 2600 years. These Christian Icons, angels and cherubim, had their Greek and Roman Counterparts.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Nike_for_web.jpg
Greek Nike Image from Attic Pottery 550 BCE
It may be surprising that the Hebrew culture is not the primary source of our angel imagery but that the modern concepts are primarily Greek in their origins and those were derived from earlier Egyptian influences. The Hebrews emphasis on an iconoclastic approach to their worship seems to have precluded making sculptural and artistic representations of angels within their culture. The Greeks on the other hand had no such limitations placed on their artistic expression.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/images/Angels%20of%20Death%20515BC%20Greek%20Krater.jpg
Angels of Death 515BC Greek Krater
This theme was repeated in the Roman Culture as the winged Goddess Victory and was prominent throughout the Roman Culture. My favorite example of this theme in Roman sculpture is the personal portrait of Augustus the absolute ruler of Rome from 3o BCE- 14 CE.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/images/Agustus.jpg
Example of the use of an angel image in the Roman Culture.
It was Augustus Ceasar the absolute Ruler of Rome that issued the order for a census of the Jewish territories held under Herod the Great that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem in the scriptural story of the birth of Jesus.
See Mathew Chapters 1-2
The early Christian Church, particularly the Byzantine Church between 400 AD and 600 AD, was responsible for adapting and transmuting the Greek and Roman goddess imagery into the lexicon of Christian iconographies in angel art.It is my personal opinion that the development of Byzantine Angel Iconography was one of the most creative periods within the history of angel art bringing many new visual interpretations of angels to the forefront. For example the Iconographic development of the six winged angel image of the seraphim can be dated to the Byzantine period as well as many other imaginative adaptations.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Seraphim_Greek_Church
Seraphim Mosaic from Greek Orthodox Church
http//www.artsales.com/images/Seraphim_Anglican_Church
Seraphim Sculpture Anglican Church 18th Century England
During the European middle ages of 1100-1500 AD angel imagery changed little from its Byzantine origins except for the individual artists style and talent. During the middle ages the literary context of the European culture became replete with angel lore in which stories about both Light and Dark Angels became the explanations for almost every natural phenomenon.http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/m_on_buraq.jpg
The ascension of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from 16th century Iran
In Islamic tradition from at least the 14th century, the Buraq myth, combines elements of ancient depictions of griffins, sphinxes, and centaurs, as well as angels and became a favorite subject of Persian miniature painting. The story is of the ascension of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven. The Buraq was depicted as Muhammad's means of access into heaven.The Italian Renaissance saw the improvement of artistic techniques and the resurrection of lost art forms and classical themes particularly in sculpture but the basic angel images changed little from their Hellenistic Greek forms. This historic period was marked with a dramatic renewal in the arts and the application of the basic sciences and scientific procedures.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Angels_Russian_Orothodox_Church.jpg
Russian Orthodox Church 16th Century
In Europe the die was cast for the conventions ofAngel Iconography in the hellenistic Greek period and these remained consistent for hundreds of years and now for several millennia. The Baroque and Rococo periods of art found the heaven on earth theme taken to new levels of richness and complexity. This trend ended with the humanistic French Revolution.
.
"Heaven on Earth" theme as developed
in 16th Century Toledo Spain, this theme was heightened
and further developed in the Baroque and Rococo traditionshttp//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/42.jpg
The romantic and Victorian Era created the most ostentatious contributions to the visions of angels with Queen Victoria's and prince Albert's memorial , nothing has been created since the construction of these monuments that compares.
http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/madelein_600_C.jpg
The height of Romantic visions is represented by the Ascension of Mary Magellan in the Church of the Magdalein in Paris France. Created by Carlos Marochetti who also did the facade on the Arc de Triumph and queen Victoria's Memorial all prominently featuring romanticized angel images.
The trend toward the ostentatious mostly ended with the humanistic French Revolution and the introduction of more scientific paradigms of thinking. However the Victorian era proved once again that you can flaunt it if you have it regardless of good taste and common scense.http//www.artsales.com/ARTistory/angelic_journey/angel_images/Lament_for_Icarus_Herbert_Draper.jpg
Romantic imagery from 19th century artist
Herbert James Draper "The Lament to Icarus"Upon examination of angel images little changed in basic angel iconography during the period from Hellenistic Greek representations of Nike to the Romantic Era except for the wider application of the basic visual concepts to additional literary and religious themes. The basic concept developed in Hellenistic greek culture was used in all subsequent periods of European Art. This trend continued and found the reconstituted classical image applied to interests in mythological, historic and Biblical themes. The imagery was nearly universely accepted and applied by different artists according to local cultural tastes and their individual and personal style. However the accepted concept of what represents an angel had its roots with the Hellenistic Greeks and has had a run of popular acceptance for an amazing 2500 years.
http//www.artsales.com/kanayama/images/Yoshitoshi_Taiso_ghost_of_Sasaki_Kiyotaka.jpg
Yoshitoshi Taiso, 1839-1892 ghost of Sasaki Kiyotaka
from the series "Tsuki Hyakushi"Not to be ignored are the Japanese artists who illustrated both benevolent and evil spirits in their art. The Japanese had a wonderful and matter of fact relationship with the spiritual world and this is reflected in their mythology and literature. One of the most poignant of these images is from the series "Tsuki Hyakushi" (One Hundred Aspects of the Moon) the maiden Iga-no-Tsubone encounters the ghost of Sasaki Kiyotaka. Walking the world as a troubled spirit he complained to her that he had been accused of conducting an ill fated military campaign and was forced to commit suicide. Tsubone calmly appeased him and he never appeared to her again. This encounter is illustrated in a way that is both beautiful and dramatic, one of the best designs of the One Hundred Aspects of the Moon series.
In conclusion Although the basic angel image, a winged human figure, has undergone the transmutations and changes of culture, context, language, religion, literature and commercialization for the singular sake of selling feminine lingerie, through five millennia of human history the visual effect of this conception remains consistent through time. It still has the power to create wonder, awe and inspiration, which is an extrodiary and valuable testament to the universal and timeless appeal and power of the visual arts.
Victoria's Secrets Commercial use of the Angel Image for the promotion
and sale of their lingerie is less than forgettable.As we enter the new Millennium, with an understanding of relativity and as science pushes back the edges of time and the known Cosmos with deep space telescopes it may be prudent to suggest a greater paradigm for the perception of an angel image. As our ancestors drew inspiration from nature and their know universe for the creation of goddess and angel images, with a little imagination it is easy to connect the dots and to find the image of a "Goddess of the night sky" (Nut) , a "Nike", a "Winged Victory", an "Icarus" or an "Arch Angel" in the cosmic dust and stars of the Orion nebula M42_43 where universes and planetary systems, similar to that of our own sun, are currently being born.
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
Physical descriptions bro...
come on bro, what more physical than the above?, here it is highlighted
"Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four"
do you tihnk i'm a fool or something man? lol , come on bro, give me a bit of credit that i possess an average human IQ, unless you consider the quran is only for the smart guys lol
I would never think your a fool, but i know we have to be carefull when we read somethings...
Defenition wings
wing (wng)
n.
One of a pair of movable organs for flying, as the feather-covered modified forelimb of a bird or the skin-covered modified digits of the forelimb of a bat.
Any of usually four membranous organs for flying that extend from the thorax of an insect.
A winglike organ or structure used for flying, as the folds of skin of a flying squirrel or the enlarged pectoral fin of a flying fish.
Botany.
A thin or membranous extension, such as of the fruit of the elm, maple, or ash or of the seed of the pine.
One of the lateral petals of the flower of a pea or of most plants in the pea family.Informal. An arm of a human.
An airfoil whose principal function is providing lift, especially either of two such airfoils symmetrically positioned on each side of the fuselage of an aircraft.
Something that resembles a wing in appearance, function, or position relative to a main body.The act or manner of flying.
A means of flight or rapid movement Fear lent wings to his feet.Something, such as a weathervane, that is moved by or moves against the air.
The sail of a ship.
Chiefly British. The fender of a motor vehicle.
A folding section, as of a double door or of a movable partition.
Either of the two side projections on the back of a wing chair.A flat of theatrical scenery projecting onto the stage from the side.
wings The unseen backstage area on either side of the stage of a proscenium theater.
A structure attached to and connected internally with the side of a main building.
A section of a large building devoted to a specific purpose the children's wing of the hospital.
A group affiliated with or subordinate to an older or larger organization.Either of two groups with opposing views within a larger group; a faction.
A section of a party, legislature, or community holding distinct, especially dissenting, political views the conservative wing.Either the left or right flank of an army or a naval fleet.
An air force unit larger than a group but smaller than a division.
Sports.
Either of the forward positions played near the sideline, especially in hockey.
A player who plays such a position.
wings An outspread pair of stylized bird's wings worn as insignia by qualified pilots or air crew members.v., winged, wing?ing, wings.
v.intr.
To move on or as if on wings; fly.v.tr.
To furnish with wings.
To cause or enable to fly or speed swiftly along.To feather (an arrow).To pass over or through with or as if with wings.
To carry or transport by or as if by flying.
To effect or accomplish by flying.
To throw or dispatch (a ball, for example).To wound the wing of (a game bird, for example).
To wound superficially, as in an appendage.
To furnish with side or subordinate extensions, as a building or an altarpiece.
idioms
in the wingsIn the stage wings, unseen by the audience.
Close by in the background; available at short notice a presidential candidate waiting in the wings.
on the wing
In flight; flying.
take wing
To fly off; soar away.
under (one's) wing
Under one's protection; in one's care.
wing it Informal.
To say or do something without preparation, forethought, or sufficient information or experience; improvise She hadn't studied for the exam, so she decided to wing it.As you can see "wings" can be taken in several ways. So to which definition do you refer then? And where is your logic and proof behind it?
This is the only concept that is really given in the Quran.
this is one of the many things we need to do to be called submitters as the Quran explained to us the laws
exactly....
You don't understand how i meant 'concept' then. Like the Christains use the word 'lord' for Jesus, so when they hear the word 'lord' in the Bible'they think it refers to Jesus. The meaning is filled in by tradition, not by the Bible itself. This is also the same for the word 'salat', in the Quranic meaning is given in several examples, while the tradition has also filled in the meaning. And you know what cross-reference is, use all the examples of the word used in the Quran to give the best meaning, just like with verse 434. This is what we have to do with salat, ruku, sujood.
no bro i guess you don't get what i mean, what i meant is I'm a native arabic speaker, the examples you are showing are all in non native language to the original scriptures even the example you showed about the christian use of some words
You don't know what i am talking about i see, it has nothing to do with language or not, which language or book or faith. It has to do with conceptions, ideas about how you see the word used in life, how it was thaught to you what it means. This has nothing to do with being a native speaker or not, this has to do with perception of words and definitions and meanings. This has to do if the word 'salat' really was used as to mean prayer during Mohammed's time.
Ahmed Ali on the meaning of Salat
Salat as As-sala meant middle of the back, a horse that is second in a race, and as salia-wastala dependence, adherence, attachment. In the Quran salat acquired the conceptual meanings of devotion, adherence to God and His commands, fulfilling one?s duties and obligations as behoves an ?abd, creature, servant, devotee of God, as integral part of ?ubudiyat, servitude and devotion, made clear in 2441 which underlines that every creature in the heavens and the earth knows its salat, duties and obligations.
The Quran, thus, brings to the mind its real objects from words by invoking the images imbedded in the subconcious. For though the words remain the same, they often acquire new conceptual meanings and new dimensions lying hidden in their roots, which are brought out by the Quran, and now form part of its linguistic and intellectual dynamism. At the same time they become removed from the Jahiliya which was more of an attitude of mind and culture than a state of ignorance, as well as the later world as unfolded by the changing patterns of history, thought and language, so that anyone interpreting the Quran on the basis as used by Arabs today would only misled the readers of the Book.
As you can see, the word salat was used in a total different way in the ancient times, so when did it got also the meaning of prayer? By whom? The Quran uses it in different ways, so who has explained the concept of how to use the word salat? Isn't it logical then to see in what way God uses it in His Quran? He teaches us how He means it. This is the only research that can prove it. Who thaught you it also means physical prayer? Not the ancient dictionaries. This is the answer we are looking for, so your referrences you are a native speaker, doesn't apply at all when we investigate concepts, because we have to understand who thaught you, your concept of understanding the word, how to read it, what kind of meaning it has in a verse and so on.
This is what i am investigating, and till now, just saying it means prayer is not enough.
Peace
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Maybe the history can change the contents of a message, but NOT the totality of an occurance! Prophet Mohammad did pray and quite surely during congregational prayer!
How did he do it?
How often?
in which occasions?these are all the questions which I find of least priority! THE FACT IS THAT HE DID AND SO IS IN QURAN and in association with different stories are very strong signs of THE BEHAVIOR OF OTHER PROHETS and that they did prayed GOD!
IF WE AGREE ON THIS AND ALSO AGREE THAT WE SHOULD GIVE OUR OWN SELVES A GOOD DOSSAGE OF PRAYER AND THEN TEACH OTHERS OF ITS MEANING AND ITS SPIRIT. then
It is not important HOW, WHERE, HOW OFTEN and........................
It is far more important to search for its function, purpose, usability, ......in spiritual attainment, being a good human, being a positive and productief member of society!
Prayer is performed by those who are moved. Those people get emotionally involved with GOD and need to talk to their FRIEND often.
Are they dancing (like sufis) or bowing (like jews) or prostrating ( like many muslims) or singing( like many black Americans) ARE ALL WELL as long as it is meant to lower our selfish ego and raise the iamge of ALMIGHTY.
They connect in their own ways to GOD.
We pray to say thanks for the existence and that of ours too.
We pray to say sorry of our human shortcomings
We pray to contemplate on beautiful attributes of GOD which should become our own.
We pray to evaluate our daily life and see if it was straight enough.
We pray to see which GOOD actions did I do today?
We pray to remember whom we forgot and to whom we were unjustWe thank and get humble! Getting Humble is a practice to reach a point to leave our selfish desire completly behind us.
THIS IS PRAYER. I do pray and most certainly I do pray toward the cube ; THE HOUSE OF GOD. As I do while watching the sun, or watching the birds or feeling the rain on my skin! All these are blessings of HIS ALMIGHT.
DON?T MIND MY FINGER SHOWING THE MOON. KEEP YOU EYES ON THE MOON,.
peace -
Well this is always a nice try by the people who claim that Muslims who perform sijood facing the Kaaba are committing idolatry, first of all and as I said before, they forgot that it was an order from Allah in His Quran,
Salam AB where is the order in the Quran?
Its interesting that I recently saw an intervied in PTV with Ziauddin Sardar. It was very interesting. Particularly, muslims always attaching too much to history, hadith, shariya etc, even the understanding of the Quran-its Arabic from primitive Arabs as those at the time of Mohammed and few centuries later has frozen ourselves in the past and hindered us from progressing. This I think is very true. Zia suggested that every 100 years we should re-interpret the Quran. I think this is great, I suggest we should interpret it every 10 years if we have to.
The take home message for you AB is to think ligically and intelectually rather than quoting/cutting/pasting verses from the Quran, as we do not want to be frozen back in time. We now have to move on. Its a pity that sometimes I will be forced to go to Jumma (Friday prayer). And guess what happen, people bowing (arobics etc) to the cube, reading namaz without knowing the translation, laughing, chilling, showing their cars outside the mosque, the imam is basically just prasing the Prophet, lying and manipulating the monkeys sitting infront of him, who with every lie shout the takbir. Now what the hell is this ?
The solution for us into serve/commit rather then to pray/worship to the stone ! If we do not do this nothing gona change.
Peace
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Maybe the history can change the contents of a message, but NOT the totality of an occurance! Prophet Mohammad did pray and quite surely during congregational prayer!
How did he do it?
How often?
in which occasions?these are all the questions which I find of least priority! THE FACT IS THAT HE DID AND SO IS IN QURAN and in association with different stories are very strong signs of THE BEHAVIOR OF OTHER PROHETS and that they did prayed GOD!
IF WE AGREE ON THIS AND ALSO AGREE THAT WE SHOULD GIVE OUR OWN SELVES A GOOD DOSSAGE OF PRAYER AND THEN TEACH OTHERS OF ITS MEANING AND ITS SPIRIT. then
It is not important HOW, WHERE, HOW OFTEN and........................
It is far more important to search for its function, purpose, usability, ......in spiritual attainment, being a good human, being a positive and productief member of society!
Prayer is performed by those who are moved. Those people get emotionally involved with GOD and need to talk to their FRIEND often.
Are they dancing (like sufis) or bowing (like jews) or prostrating ( like many muslims) or singing( like many black Americans) ARE ALL WELL as long as it is meant to lower our selfish ego and raise the iamge of ALMIGHTY.
They connect in their own ways to GOD.
We pray to say thanks for the existence and that of ours too.
We pray to say sorry of our human shortcomings
We pray to contemplate on beautiful attributes of GOD which should become our own.
We pray to evaluate our daily life and see if it was straight enough.
We pray to see which GOOD actions did I do today?
We pray to remember whom we forgot and to whom we were unjustWe thank and get humble! Getting Humble is a practice to reach a point to leave our selfish desire completly behind us.
THIS IS PRAYER. I do pray and most certainly I do pray toward the cube ; THE HOUSE OF GOD. As I do while watching the sun, or watching the birds or feeling the rain on my skin! All these are blessings of HIS ALMIGHT.
DON?T MIND MY FINGER SHOWING THE MOON. KEEP YOU EYES ON THE MOON,.
peaceGood post Alpha. I think the prophet did commit in congregation at jumma. I like the Bruce Lee's words at the end of your message.
Peace
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For people to understand, i'm still studying the concept of salat, but Ayman's article showed me that, we have to understand the concept mostly from the Quran itself. I agree with it being obedience and it being physical prayer, but the arguments like the ones from AB aren't enough to prove his position, that is all i'm trying to prove here. So i see both sides are being to confident on their position. Is this because they have to defend their concept, or because it is the true concept? For now i'm still in the middle. Like i can't agree with Ayman that the washing in 56 is just the morning and evening "wash". Still it has a more 'special' function, but is this because of mine pre-programmed concept, or my seeing a logical true concept? This is what i'm trying to find out. In this debate i still see two sides that both are not convincing me, it looks more a germany versus holland soccer game fans shouting at each other, shouting who's the best, i'm waiting till the game is finished, and the players strenght (arguments from the Quran) determine the game.............
WHAT IS SALAT? Edip Yuksel on Physical salat
SALAT With Both Mind and Body
Edip Yuksel
19.org29 May 2004
The moment I joined the forums of free-minds.org and posted the first message about the FIVE PROJECTS (not five prayers!) we were working on, my faith was questioned by several people and I was immediately challenged regarding my opinion on SALAT. On any subject I wrote, I was harassed and demanded to indulge in their favorite argument. It seems that several people were so excited from freeing their minds and their bodies from performing a ritual; they just wanted to PROHIBIT such a ritual in the name of God. According to these people, anyone disagrees with their INTERPRETATION, INFERENCES and SPECULATIONS on some Quranic verses or words, or someone prays differently, he or she must be a MUSHRIK or DISBELIEVER. According to them I should not spend much time to think and study their claims. They did not even recognize a right for me to spend time on anything else in my life. I was expected either to reject their position IMMEDIATELY or accept IMMEDIATELY. Studying their argument was either a luxury, or evasion of absolute truth! I should have had acted reflexively, with a knee-jerk reaction, perhaps like they have done it.
As a response, I told them that I was taking their position seriously, and I even acknowledged that though I have heard the argument 30 years ago when I was living in Turkey, I learned a few new good points raised in their argument, and I added that after studying their assertions, if I find their argument to be factual and coherent I would not hesitate to change my position. I never accused them of committing sin by NOT observing Salat prayers physically. I was simply following the instructions in 20114; 1736; 3938.
I would like to share two incidents with you before I venture to briefly state my reasons why I disagree with their RIGID position (accusing those who observe prayers mentally and physically of being mushriks), and why I am not so far persuaded by their SOFT position (that the Salat prayers should be observed mentally).
Several years ago, when I came to the conclusion that according to the Quran the number of Salat prayers were not FIVE, but THREE, I started praying three times a day. I shared my view with the members of my small congregation, and some of them, including my wife, did not want to change their routine of praying 5 times a day. They found my argument difficult to follow, and they had some arguments supporting their position. Yet, I never questioned their faith. I knew that it was still possible that a group of people following the Quran alone could have some differences in their understanding of its verses, since their knowledge, experience, and background were not all the same. The most important thing was their intention to devote their religion to God alone. Perhaps, with more research and some friendly discussion their differences would fade out with time. I did not and do not expect that every believer in Quran Alone must understand every verse, every word and their implications the same. My wife still prays five times a day and follows the traditional numbers of units. If I listened to these people and did not mind my own business and demanded her to accept my version of understanding some verses, I would have accused her of committing SHIRK, the ultimate crime. How could a believer blame another for merely observing EXTRA prayers based on their differences in understanding of the Quran?
The second incident I want to share with you involves a spin-off group of Tucson submitters. Some submitters led by a couple of messenger claimants (Yes, after Rashad Khalifa dozens of people claimed to be messengers) came to believe that uttering Allah-u Akbar was wrong, since AKBAR was not a Quranic attribute of God. Instead, they started using Allah-ul Kabeer in their prayers. I preferred the attribute used by the Quran to the one that was not, and I started uttering Allah-ul Kabeer; but unlike them I did not have problem with someone who uttered Allah-u Akbar. Though AKBAR was not used in the Quran as an attribute for God, it shared the same root KBR with KABEER and there was no problem with its meaning. It was a beautiful attribute and all beautiful attributes, regardless of language, belonged to God. However, most of those who converted to Kabeer acted divisively and started condemning those who uttered Akbar. The other group also reacted similarly. They claimed that Kabeer was an innovation and switching from Akbar to Kabeer was a diversion from their late messenger's practice (that is Rashad Khalifa's Sunnah! Ironically, these people were the same people who rejected Hadith and Sunnah attributed to Muhammad arguing that the Quran alone must be the ONLY authority of their religion).
Turning back to present topic?. The same extremism or desire for schism is at work among some members of free-minds. A group of people come to believe and practice a particular issue differently than others; and they start turn that issue to a sales-pitch for their cult or group. They develop and sharpen their arguments and use it like a holy sword. They might have some good points, they might be even totally correct; but they start abusing their newly discovered DIFFERENCE by exaggerating the issue and by making it a categorical measure of faith. It is curious dynamic that comes into play in every new religious or political group. Desire to create a separate identity overwhelm their rational thinking and blinds them to see the common values. Soon after Jesus, Paul the Pharisee distorted many facts to divorce Jesus' message from of Moses. Soon after Jesus departure the followers "of the Pharisee son of Pharisee" started calling themselves Christians. This divisive pattern is common in almost all groups that advocate a particular religion, sect, or cult.
I would also make one point clear. Understanding and accepting differently is not the same as rejecting God's ayaats/signs in the Quran and/or in the nature. Rejecting to believe an ayat (sign) or ayaat (signs/revelations) is disbelief and considered a great sin. For instance, if 9128-129 were verses of the Quran, rejecting them would be important. Similarly if 9128-129 were not verses of the Quran, accepting them would be important too. (I am deliberately using the word VERSES rather than AYAAT, since the singular word Ayat is used 84 times in the Quran and in all those occurrences it is used to mean signs and miracles, and never in its singular form refers to the verses of the Quran. However, both signs/miracles and revelation is referred with the plural of the word, that is Ayaat. Knowing that the Quran challenges disbelievers to produce minimum 1 chapter similar to the Quran, and knowing that the shortest chapter has three verses, then it is appropriate to use the plural word AYAAT for at least three verses. ) Since, the Code 19 involves this issue and also is considered as one of the greatest miracles (AYAAT) and a test, the very witnessing or understanding becomes a matter of faith. (I will inshallah later post an article on this issue).
Salat
After this lengthy introduction, here are my reasons why I still continue observing the Salat prayers both mentally and bodily. I will focus on brother Layth's article titled What is Salat"
It is true that SaJDa means obedience, submission to God's law (1649). From this verse we should not necessarily infer that everything has mind like humans. Even if we subscribe to such a fancy assumption, mental events too are physical events; they are the consequence of interaction of electrons. In fact, the prostration of all the creatures we perceive is PHISICAL. Any event that can be sensed by our five senses is a physical event. Atoms physically (chemical reactions too are physical events in this sense) surrender to God's laws when they interact with each other. When water freezes it surrenders to God's law and expands, when it is heated to a certain degree it evaporates. When Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen atoms come together in a particular order and create bases called Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine, and Thymine, and when these bases join each other in a particular order, pre-ordained by God, they create DNAs that produce new qualities and events, including life. Every cell and organ in our bodies submits to God's law. These are all physical demonstration of SaJDa to God. No wonder, the entire universe is stated to have submitted to God (383; 1315). Interestingly, in these two verses the same idea is depicted yet in 383 the verb aSLaMa (submitted) is used while in 1315 the verb yaSJuDu (prostrating) is used. This is a strong evidence that botq verbs belong to the same semantic field. As we know submission to God is not just a mental activity but a physical action, such as working hard, delivering God's message, feeding the poor, etc.
On verse 4137 Layth makes the following inference "We are commanded not to prostrate before sun and moon, which means DO NOT GET ON THE GROUND AND BOW BEFORE PHYSICAL CREATIONS thinking you are worshiping The God. The God uses Sun and Moon as examples to represent all day and night."
This is not only a far-fetched speculation; it is also based on misunderstanding of the Arabic suffix Li. The verse does not say "BEFORE sun and moon," but "FOR/TO sun and moon." In connection to Layth's argument, the difference is huge. Furthermore, to describe time the Quran frequently uses day and night, not sun and moon. The verse does not prohibit physical prostration for God, but physical and mental prostration to others than God.
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I agree with Layth that the word SaJDa in some verses means ONLY mental (in quantum, electronic or neural level) prostration while in other verses it means ONLY bodily (atomic and molecular level) prostration. (I do not deliberately use the word PHYSICAL since both mental and bodily events are physical). I agree with Layth in his excellent observation on 2720-24 and deduce that the prostration in question must be physical. I also agree with Layth that 7748 most likely refers to mental prostration.
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As for verse 2218, it describes both mental and bodily submission to God. After quoting this verse Layth asks a rhetorical question, "Has anyone ever seen any of these creations bow and prostrate on the ground (animals excluded)?" He claims that since all things in heavens and earth do not prostrate to God by casting themselves facedown on the ground in humility, then we should not prostrate that way either. But, this conclusion is based on a false assumption that ALL creatures prostrate the same way. Every creature in heavens and earth glorifies God (2441; 571; 591,24; 611; 621; 641). But we do not understand their glorification (1744). We are also instructed to glorify our Lord day and night, not like birds or planets, but like humans, in our language (341; 598; 7206; 1911; 20130; 3215; 4055; 5039-40; 5248-49; 5674,96; 6952; 7626; 871; 1103).
Hence "Do you not see that everything in heavens and earth glorify God, including the birds in columns. Each knows his/her/its prayer (Salat) and glorification. God is fully aware of everything you do." (2441).
The following verse is also important "Are they seeking other than God's religion, when everything has submitted (aSLaMa) to Him in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?" (383). Now Layth should ask similar question about how to be a muslim as he asked about how to perform prostration "Has anyone ever seen any of these creations give charity or deliver God's message or study the Quran?" So, according to Layth, muslims also should not give charity, should not deliver the message, should not study the Quran, and should not use computers?!!
After quoting verse 262 Layth adds "No, not all of the mentioned people bow and prostrate on the ground. Will they be punished? No, it is the people who do not SUBMIT to The God and FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS that will deserve His punishment." Again, Layth reaching conclusions hastily. The groups mentioned in the verse (believers, Jews, Nazarenes, and those from other religions) attain salvation as long as they believe in God, do righteous work and believe in hereafter. Perhaps not all these groups bow and prostrate, and perhaps not all these groups believe and follow the Quran, either. First, we should remember that God hold responsible depending on their circumstances. As those who witnessed Moses' miracles will be hold responsible for their reaction to them, similarly those who are instructed to bow and prostrate will be held responsible for their reaction. Each nation received a messenger and each received their instruction (1047; 2234; 402.
Referring to verse 1850, Layth concludes "There is no need to get on the ground to worship your Lord because He has not commanded us to do this. He wants us to Bow and Prostrate our WILLS to that of HIS WILL." This is a reasonable conclusion. However, knowing that the word prostration was also used to mean humbly getting on the ground, we cannot equate the prostration in this verse to all others. The verse refers to an event took place before the creation of life on earth. Besides, the instruction is to Satan, a creature made of energy not matter like us. The nature of prostration asked from Satan or angels might be little different than the one asked from us. Or, more accurately, the form, way or style of our prostration might not necessarily be expected to be the same with angels.?
Layth makes an interesting point "Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
Furthermore, David who was observing Salat prayer is described by the Quran as "? He then implored his Lord for forgiveness, bowed down (KhaRra RuKka'An), and repented." (3824). David's repentance is clearly described as bowing down, BOTH MENTAL AND BODILY.
I do not know Layth, but some of his friends are not only reaching the wrong conclusion about the nature of Salat prayer, they further arrogate themselves by insulting, harassing and condemning those believers who observe Salat prayer BOTH MENTALLY and BODILY.
I hope that Layth will carefully re-visit this issue and reform his position. I would like to remind him and others who are trying hard to eliminate the formal component of Salaat prayer the following verse
"? When the revelations of the Gracious are recited to them, they fall prostrate (KhaRRu SuJjaDan), weeping." (195
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Thanks brother,
Very interesting article, truly very informative! I really do not find any problem submitting mentally (electronically, cellularly) or spiritually (Soul, non-physically??) or physically. But the problem is when physically submitting to God people starts to focus to the stones with a direction (qibla etc). That I do have problem with. If one wants to put ones' head on the floor its OK, but to stones and to a certain diraction is problematic.
What do you think.
Peace
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Yes, i agree, till nowi don't see a connection, convincing proof between qibla being involved with physical direction. The only function a physical praying focal point could have, is a social function. So we have to focus on how the Quran itself explains the meaning of 'masjid al-haram', without using the pre-programmed strings tying conclusions together. This is what i mean with, concepts, are our conclusions, our understandings how to interpretate verses or words, pre-programmed by tradition, or by Quran? Does the Quran made strings between verses and words, or did we made them because of our program that says there should be a physical qibla? This is a study that is still not undertaken.
We have a little list we have to work out1.God is everywhere.
a.So no need for a physical direction.
b.It has a social function.2.Don't pray towards an object.
a.Because didn't we turn it into a 'holy'/'special' direction?
b.The Masjid al-haram is only a focal point, it is not the focus of the prayer.This is more homework....
This article of Edip, is the only honest and objective article i have found so far, that acknowledges both sides of salat meaning physical and being obedience, and its convincing in its points next to Ayman's, also some ideas of Parwez are interresting. But we have to put all theories next to another, and see what fits.
Peace
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If the Quran doesn't tell us something that is from the unseen world, God thinks it can be described, or it is not necesarry for us to know. As to the history, ok.
Bro the Quran told us many things from the unseen world, like the hell fire for example and like the angels, even historical data was mentioned in the Quran
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
I would never think your a fool, but i know we have to be carefull when we read somethings...
Thaks bro for that and thanks for the long article about the angel history, but as you know the history records are hearsay, like the hadith exactly, I hoped you bring evidences from the Quran though
Defenition wings
A winglike organ or structureAs you can see "wings" can be taken in several ways. So to which definition do you refer then? And where is your logic and proof behind it?
Bro wing is the following simple definition as you quoted above
A winglike organ or structure,
like a plan wing
now if the angels use it for flying or not, I really don?t know because the Quran didn?t talk about that, the bottom line is this
you said the Quran never described the angels physically and clearly the Quarn said that Allah made 2 or 3 or 4 A winglike organ for the angels,
but you still asking for proofs, what proofs exactly bro?, that wings means Jinah in arbic?
The proof is I?m an arbic speaker
Your question is like asking a native English speaker to prove that a school means a school in English
All in all if we face a sentence with word that have many meanings, only the context that will control that meaning
And the literal context for the verses clearly says they have wings
this is one of the many things we need to do to be called submitters as the Quran explained to us the laws
exactly....
You don't know what i am talking about i see, it has nothing to do with language or not, which language or book or faith. It has to do with conceptions, ideas about how you see the word used in life, how it was thaught to you what it means. This has nothing to do with being a native speaker or not, this has to do with perception of words and definitions and meanings. This has to do if the word 'salat' really was used as to mean prayer during Mohammed's time.
Well, as far as I believe that Allah is not going to trick us in His Quran, i.e. it means literal unless specified otherwise, , yet you have not provided one Quran verse to sypport your coneption
As you can see, the word salat was used in a total different way in the ancient times, so when did it got also the meaning of prayer? By whom? The Quran uses it in different ways, so who has explained the concept of how to use the word salat? Isn't it logical then to see in what way God uses it in His Quran? He teaches us how He means it. This is the only research that can prove it. Who thaught you it also means physical prayer? Not the ancient dictionaries. This is the answer we are looking for, so your referrences you are a native speaker, doesn't apply at all when we investigate concepts, because we have to understand who thaught you, your concept of understanding the word, how to read it, what kind of meaning it has in a verse and so on.
This is what i am investigating, and till now, just saying it means prayer is not enough.
Peace
Bro I discussed this matter before, the word Salat is the same foe me since I was a baby, it means literally a connection, now applying that literal meaning on our action or performing Salat, it means we are making a connection with Allah
Very simple and does not need rocket science
Peace man
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Peace all,
Jews who bang their heads on the Wailing Wall say "we are ordered to do this by God Himself". Christians who venerate Jesus will also say "we are ordered to do this by God Himself". EVERYONE who does any kind of nonsense will try to justify it by saying "we are ordered to do this by God Himself". One thing that they will never be able to do is to answer "WHY". They don't know the purpose and all their arguments collapse when quized on the purpose.
For those who think "sujud" is merely and primarily a physical act, is this how you do your "sujud"?
17.107.
Supposedly, some here can read and understand Arabic. So do they understand what means? It means to the "chins" NOT the "foreheads".
If one believes that "sujud" is physical then one must obey The God and do it to the "chin" NOT the "forehead".
The only time the "forehead" is mentioned in relation to "salat", it is the lying and errant "forehead" of those that PREVENT the real "salat" in Chapter 96.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ahmed,
Your question is like asking a native English speaker to prove that a school means a school in English
This is a good example. Because the walls and ceilings of a certain physical building is not what defines a "school". A school is not primarily a physical building, it is primarily an institution of learning. Thus, you can't send your kids to be taught by the physical building. You send them to be taught by the institution, which is not a physical concept. Sure a physical building is one component of the institution but it is not the primary one nor is it the most important one. Thus people can be "home schooled" and we even have on-line schools where people can go to learn.
Hence, a native English (and Arabic) speaker will tell you about a certain school of thought and someone in the need of "schooling" is not in the need of a physical building but is in the need of "learning".
Really such concepts are universal in all languages and your using of "native Arabic speaker" argument sounds as pathetic as a native English speaker arguing "I am a native English speaker" whenever someone argues against his understanding of the King James Bible.
Moreover, like the native English speaker your knowledge of the language is limited to what you were taught at school. For example, you seem happy to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between Modern Arabic and Classical Arabic. This is as silly as a modern English speaker imagining that there is no difference between modern English and old English.
This is basic stuff about Arabic and all languages that you are probably the least knowledgeable about on this forum and yet ironically out of all the native Arabic speakers here you are the only one always boasting the "I am a native Arabic speaker" as your strongest argument. My observation as a fellow Egyptian and native Arabic speaker is that it really sounds pretty hollow after hearing it so many times. This has nothing to do with you personally as I am sure that it would sound hollow from me and all Arabic speakers if they repeat it as much as you do and use it as their main argument.
This is my honest observation and it is not meant negatively, it is meant as advice that I sincerely hope would help.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaamun alaikum brother Arnold,
I agree with what you said in your post that salat, sujud, and ruku could be mental only or both mental and bodily, and that the context of the verses will determine if they are just mental, or both mental and bodily.
I was going to post the verse 17107 but brother Ayman beat me to it. I agree that according to that verse if the physical sujud is performed it has to be on the chin and not on the forehead as per the sectarians.
Brother Arnold, I have a question, maybe you can clarify it for me. If sujud or ruku is physical then it is usually preceded by "kharra" but that is not always true as in the case of 2724 where the prostration is physical but is not preceded by "kharra". On the other hand in 12100 the prostration is preceded by "kharroo" but it is not bodily. So "kharra" does not always mean bodily and the absence of "kharra" does not necessarily mean mental only; so how can one determine if the sujud or ruku is mental only or both mental and bodily in a particular verse, because the "kharra" rule does not always work ? Also how can you be sure if the prostration is really bodily when preceded by "kharra" as "kharra" does not always imply bodily ?
You also mentioned that 7748 most likely refers to mental prostration. However 7748 talks about ruku and not sujud. Are you taking ruku here to mean prostration ?
Also can you please post the verse/verses which convincingly show that a bodily ruku is part of salat ? 17107-17111 shows clearly that a bodily sujud is part of salat according to the context but I could not find the verse/verses showing that bodily ruku is part of salat. The closest I came was 555 but the context in that verse seems to imply that the ruku mentioned is mental only.
Would you agree that 2237, 340, 4102, and 4142 convincingly prove a bodily standing position for salat ?
Oration or recitation of verses from qur'aan in salat in a moderate tone as per 17110-111 is also bodily.
Can you also please comment on the proof that qiblah and al-masjid al-haram is mental and not physical as shown in the following post ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=80128#80128
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Peace bro,
First of all, it is Edip who wrote the article, not me. So your questions are directed to him. He is in the memberslist. But i will check those verses and see what answer i can give, but i'm not an arabic expert.
And i don't need to give my opinion on the masjid al-haram, as brother Ayman has given perfect examples i agree with, but more research has to be done. God always has some tricks up His sleeves to keep us focused and awake.
So more comments will come Godwilling, but on verse 12100, people have to remember that also raising them on the trone can be taking symbolic, and the prostrating is done or before God, like Asad thinks in his translation, or others were prostrating, not his parents, to God. Or the raising up the trone and the prostration are two seperate events that don't occur right after each other. Or they bow out of homage, as respect and love for their lost son. So taking the order as something that occur the second after one another is wrong, and i also believe raising them on the trone is used symbolic. And it could be reffering to be prostration to God. But i have to check more.
But i believe that a lot of concepts are fixed by outside sources, and not Quran. This is my whole discussion. It still doesn't leave out physical prayer. But i believe Salat mostly refer to obedience, that obedience is the most important understanding, because now still most people read salat in most verses as contact-prayer, instead of reading it mostly as obedience to Gods laws, ands that in some verses it refers to prayer. You see the difference in reading and understanding a concept?
Peace
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Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
please beofore i go to bed, i need to ask you a quick question before i respnd to the above tomorrow inshallah, is the long comment about masjid by you or by brother Ayman?
That is my current understanding on the subject, based on my research so far. I would appreciate if you can comment on that and give me your evidences from qur'aan if you don't agree with that understanding.
The link to that post is as follows
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=80128#80128
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Peace all,
The ONLY source of guidance towards the straight path necessary to serve Allah and submit to Him according to His will is Allah Himself. If we commit some physical or mental act to submit to Allah, and that act was not sanctioned by Allah but by someone else, then we are taking someone else's words at par with those of Allah, and it becomes idolatry as we are making someone else partner with Allah by doing that.
An example would be bodily prostrating towards the so called Kaaba in Mecca. Nowhere has Allah ordered in qur'aan for us to face the Kaaba or physically prostrate towards it during salat (I am saying TOWARDS it not TO it). Now if someone does that, then even if their intention is to prostrate to Allah and to uphold their salat for Allah, it still would become an idolatrous act to bodily prostrate towards Kaaba as Allah has not sanctioned it. When some people perform bodily prostration towards Kaaba in Mecca they are not following Allah, no matter what their intentions are but they are either following/obeying their peers, or forefathers, or the imams/scholars or the unverifiable hearsays/rumors/"hadeeth" falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad and compiled by Bukhari and company, and that makes it idolatry. They will be committing idolatry without even being aware of it !! thus becoming one of those people Allah talks about in 622-24.
As far as the intentions are concerned, of course their intention is to face and bodily prostrate towards Kaaba in Mecca, otherwise they will not be physically doing it if they did not have the intention of doing it. It is not that they just had the intentions of upholding salat only to Allah and bodily prostrating only to Allah and then just by chance, or magically, or by a reflex action they happened to be facing and bodily prostrating towards the Kaaba in Mecca. Of course the intention is there.
If we do something to walk the straight path and to serve Allah by submitting to Him, we should do it only if Allah has ordered/commanded/sanctioned it, otherwise it becomes an act of idolatry.