Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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Hello all
the arbic words " " is nothiing but a metaphor, this is evident from the word "Yakhoron", i will prepare a long comment regarding masjid, my other long comment was regarding Masajid which is the plural or Masjid, but it seems there are many who can't handle the truth but can handle conjecture and non sense
peace
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Peace taveern,
Remember, this is my understanding, i'm no expert.
2724 The prostrating doesn't have to immediatly refer to them bodily prostrating, this can also refer to that they obeyed what they believe are their sun-god commands. All their obedience is directed to the sun-god.
Because the Quran refers to bodily movement with karoo, why change the pattern now? Then there is no consitensy at all, so we are the ones who read the verse wrong. So i believe the above is a better understanding and makes more sense.12100 Like i explained already we have several options
1.The raising on the trone is symbolic. The prostration is to God.2.The raising is physical, but the prostration doesn't have to be directly after the raising, there is no time given here, so we read it wrong, and the prostration happens later and is meant for God.
3.Not only the parents prostrated, but everybody, including Joseph, to God, for helping them all.
4.The prostration is as a homage to Joseph.
I myself believe the first 3 are all highly likely. And give a much wider understanding. Keep in mind, that we have to search the best understanding, and that is reached by thinking slowely and wisely.
7748 Is indeed bowing, so Edip made a mistake in his article, i will mail him.
555 Yes, interresting, can apply both on bowing for obedience to God, bowing to His laws, as to prayer. So both meanings can apply. Why limit the understanding to one?
i believe we can have multiple understandings from one word or verse, as long their logic and the best ones, they can all apply. That is the beauty of arabic. See what i found with 2432-33. Read the last post i put there.http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5387
2238 This can refer also to both understandings.
-Keep your prayers balanced, in the middle, there is one prayer in the middle, between the ones from 11104
-Keep a balance in the reading and obeying, follow the middle.These all can apply in my eyes. Not one sticking out.
339 Yes, standing and praying, but if it really refers directly to salat-prayer, i'm not sure. I don't see the word salat in this verse, maybe i read it wrong, then correct me. It is late for me...
4102 Here also both can apply. Him standing in recitation, and they prostated/obeyed.
And they prayed, standing and then they prostrated. Both needs concentration, so both need a group guarding them.
Here i also read both. To read and obey what we read, and pray standing and ending it with a prostration.4142 Yes, this can apply again to both understandings. Stand up for prayer or stand up for recitation/following the commandments. But i believe here the standing up is meant symbolic, like they're pretending to making effort for the salat, but it is only for show.
17110 Again, this gives a rule for keeping the middle in recitation as well in prayer tone.
Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace Ayman
Your question is like asking a native English speaker to prove that a school means a school in English
This is a good example. Because the walls and ceilings of a certain physical building is not what defines a "school". A school is not primarily a physical building,
I agree, as a school is any place where people are gathering to learn from a teacher even if it is in a car park
it is primarily an institution of learning. Thus, you can't send your kids to be taught by the physical building. You send them to be taught by the institution,
but these are two different issues, don?t mix them up please, LOL, the first issue is sending them to a place called school to learn, then the second issues it is their willingness to learn
which is not a physical concept.
sure but that is a different issues to the fact that parents send their children to a place called schools to learn
Sure a physical building is one component of the institution but it is not the primary one nor is it the most important one.
well, as I said there are two different issues, I can bring a teacher to my child at home to teach him and then my home can be called a school
Thus people can be "home schooled" and we even have on-line schools where people can go to learn.
I swear by Allah I didnlt read this before I put my last two lines, LOL, this is funny, as I just said my home will be called a school if I bring a teacher to teach my child at my home
Hence, a native English (and Arabic) speaker will tell you about a certain school of thought and someone in the need of "schooling" is not in the need of a physical building but is in the need of "learning".
we need a place to gather and a teacher or someone is there to teach others, that place can be your home, my home, the car park or the open air, at the end of the day it is called a school and each one of the students bear the onus on their neck to be willing to learn or not, see another different issue
Really such concepts are universal in all languages and your using of "native Arabic speaker" argument sounds as pathetic as a native English speaker arguing "I am a native English speaker" whenever someone argues against his understanding of the King James Bible.
excuse me your comment is so ignorant, LOL
the bible was not written originally in English, but the Quran was written originally in Arabic, got it or not mate?
Moreover, like the native English speaker your knowledge of the language is limited to what you were taught at school.
not really because my knowledge at school was the basics, then I took it from there, see, it is my willingness to learn, LOL is my language professionalism is limited to what I?m willing to learn
For example, you seem happy to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there is a difference between Modern Arabic and Classical Arabic.
it is you who is the ignorant here, I never said such a statement, all I said that the Classical Arabic is the one that is taught in all Arabic svhools in all Arabic countries, as well as the modern Arabic, how the hell you accuse me as such?
Oh yeh, trying hard to discredit me, LOL
This is as silly as a modern English speaker imagining that there is no difference between modern English and old English.
well, sure exactly like the arabic
This is basic stuff about Arabic and all languages that you are probably the least knowledgeable about on this forum and yet ironically out of all the native Arabic speakers here you are the only one always boasting the "I am a native Arabic speaker" as your strongest argument. My observation as a fellow Egyptian and native Arabic speaker is that it really sounds pretty hollow after hearing it so many times. This has nothing to do with you personally as I am sure that it would sound hollow from me and all Arabic speakers if they repeat it as much as you do and use it as their main argument.
the aove is clear cut non sense, see from day one you are trying hard to descvredit me, I guess I should ignore you for good
This is my honest observation and it is not meant negatively, it is meant as advice that I sincerely hope would help.
Peace,
Ayman
No thanks keep it for yourself then if it is accompanied by discrediting me while you don?t really know me
salam
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Salaamun alaikum Arnold,
12100 Like i explained already we have several options
1.The raising on the trone is symbolic. The prostration is to God.2.The raising is physical, but the prostration doesn't have to be directly after the raising, there is no time given here, so we read it wrong, and the prostration happens later and is meant for God.
3.Not only the parents prostrated, but everybody, including Joseph, to God, for helping them all.
4.The prostration is as a homage to Joseph.
I myself believe the first 3 are all highly likely. And give a much wider understanding. Keep in mind, that we have to search the best understanding, and that is reached by thinking slowely and wisely.
The only problem with your argument is the following
124 When Joseph said to his father "My father, I have seen eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them SAJIDEEN to ME."
The vision was them doing sujud to Joseph and 12100 was the fulfillment of that vision, so logically that implies that in 12100 his parents were doing sujud to Joseph, and if that is the case, the "kharra" before the sujud would make it a bodily prostration to Joseph, or am I missing something here ?
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Good point. Missed it, like i said it is late for me. Interresting......
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Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,
the arbic words " " is nothiing but a metaphor, this is evident from the word "Yakhoron",
Can you please show us how it is a metaphor from the Arabic language and the qur'aanic context ?
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Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,
the arbic words " " is nothiing but a metaphor, this is evident from the word "Yakhoron",
Can you please show us how it is a metaphor from the Arabic language and the qur'aanic context ?
Peace
well, quickly as I'm gworking on something very important, the word Yakhor, clearly means to proceed throgh slowely, we use it commonly with water taps when they are dropping water and need fixing, we can also use in any thing that got punctured and whatever was inside is seeping slowely out
it is a metaphor because it can't be used physically with a humman, unless the humans got hurt and the blood started to Yakhor out
i will see if the Quran has used this word "Yakhor" in any other verses later
peace
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Salaamun alaikum Arnold,
Another point
555 Yes, interresting, can apply both on bowing for obedience to God, bowing to His laws, as to prayer. So both meanings can apply. Why limit the understanding to one?
But this verse does not contain the word "kharra" so how can we assume that it is referring to a bodily ruku in salat as opposed to a mental ruku ?
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Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,
the arbic words " " is nothiing but a metaphor, this is evident from the word "Yakhoron",
Can you please show us how it is a metaphor from the Arabic language and the qur'aanic context ?
Peace tanveermd
As I mentioned before the Arabic word ?Kharra? means drop down, scientifically speaking it would be under the effect of the gravity, and spiritually speaking it will be like totally declaring the submission to Allah by going down, 3215 is a metaphor and the sijood mentioned was not really the one we required to do to Allah, that sijood mentioned in 3215 is a metaphor on what the believers should do WHEN THEY ARE REMINDED WITH THE SIGNS OF ALLAH
Only those believe in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in prostration, and celebrate the praises of their Lord, nor are they (ever) puffed up with pride.
(15)
-> See the key words ? when they are recited to them ?,
The same metaphor was used again but the other way around, the metaphor is using the same word ?Yakhorro? but with being deaf and blind, i.e. when they are reminded with the signs the believers WILL NOT YAKHORO in deafness and blindeness, can you see the metaphor bro?
Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind;
(73)
-> Again to confirm ? when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind?
And finally we will see the word ?Khara? in a physical use, i.e. going down to the ground in this verse
And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said My Lord! show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.
(143)
-> See, ? ; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon?, clearly it says ? ?, ? and Musa fell down in a swoon?
Peace bro
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Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
Thanks a lot for explaining the usage of "kharra" in the qur'aan. It makes sense that in 3215 and 2573, "kharra" is used in the metaphorical sense and in 7143 it is used in a physical sense. It follows that the "sujjadan" in 3215 is also a mental sujud and not a physical one.
So when the word "kharra" precedes "sujud" it does not always mean a physical falling down in physical prostration. We have to look at the context to determine if it is a mental or physical falling down in prostration.
What is your understanding about 12100 and 17107, whether "kharroo" and "sjd" in those verses is physical or mental ? In 17107 it says "they fall down on chins prostrating" which clearly implies that it is a physical falling down on the chin and not mental.
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Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed,
Salam brother
Thanks a lot for explaining the usage of "kharra" in the qur'aan. It makes sense that in 3215 and 2573, "kharra" is used in the metaphorical sense and in 7143 it is used in a physical sense. It follows that the "sujjadan" in 3215 is also a mental sujud and not a physical one.
no worries bro, as you can see, i simplify things and not make it complicated and full of conjectures, regarding the metaphorical use, while I agree it is metaphorical, the sijood after the word Karra, can actually mean both, spritually and physically, in fact doing the sijood physically while not expressed in the deeds in the other daily life activities is like blowing a tyre with a puncture in it
so i take it as both at the same time
So when the word "kharra" precedes "sujud" it does not always mean a physical falling down in physical prostration. We have to look at the context to determine if it is a mental or physical falling down in prostration.
as i explained bro, kharra means going down to the ground, some can go down because they lost concouosness like Moses, and some will go down to sleep on the floor and others will go down to perfom sijood, but i streess again doing the pphysical sijood at its times then not being reflected upon as a sincere belivers in the day to day life deeds is like blowing a punctured tyre, i.e. the sijood most likely will not be acceoted as a good deed rather as a bad deed because it will be rendered as hypocricy and this is a major sin according to Allah laws
What is your understanding about 12100 and 17107, whether "kharroo" and "sjd" in those verses is physical or mental ? In 17107 it says "they fall down on chins prostrating" which clearly implies that it is a physical falling down on the chin and not mental.
12100 is clearly a physical sijood, but that sijood is sort of to Yusuf because of his position as leader and wisdom, it as to be physical because that is what should haooen according to his dream, you can see that Yusuf told his father about the dream coming true at this specific moment
17107 is identical to 3215, it can be taken as both but remeber the physical sijood is useless without the spritual submission
peace mate
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Peace Arnold,
It is great to see you on this forum and thank you for your excellent contributions.
This what God tries to tell us with His Quran, to re-programme our concepts of freedom, law, equality, status, truth, faith, obligations, society structure, rights, behaviour, our concepts of afterlife and death, magic, spirits and so on. This is Islam, dropping our pre-programmed concepts and refreshing our subconciousness witht the real concepts. Most of our concepts are filled in by previous dogma's and doctrines of ancient times, most rituals were 're-programmed' by the elite and clergy, and replaced it, and by thus hiding or loosing the original concepts God tried to show us. Hell is living a lie, not a furnice in the afterlife...........
I think that what you said about "re-programming" is very true. Continuing on your analogy, I would like to add that the great reading also enables us to test this reprogramming by helping us compare it to what we can empirically verify around us and inside us.
The great reading never ceases to amaze me. We see the testing right here in those discussions. We can see how people who see that "sujud" is purely physical are defending their preconception to the point of suggesting that physical prostration "sujud" is what was done by the controllers to Adam, the planets to Joseph, and everything in the heavens and the earth to The God. They never even considered those passages to be metaphoric. But with just one passage 17107, The God exposes what they are really defending. When they are told OK it is fine to take "sujud" as physical but in this case one has to obey The God and do it to the chin like in 17107, they cry "it is a metaphor".
This discussion is clearly not about "metaphoric" or "physical", this is about obeying preconceptions versus obeying The God. It is clear that people who are desperetly trying to justify their preconceptions are unable to obey The God.
This test helps us reach certainty and see more clearly. It is as if you turned the contrast up on your TV to make the picture sharper. It is the contrast we are told about right in the beginning of the book in 16-7.
Peace,
Ayman
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very funny indeed lol
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Salaamun alaikum brother AhmedBahgat, all,
Salam brother tanveermd
Let?s see what this article by someone else has to say
MEANING OF MASJID
I hope the author used the Quran to qualify what he says regarding the above simple subject
I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud,
Wow, end of discussion then because that is what I?m bloody saying all along, but let?s analyse the evidences
but that place could be the heart or the mind as well.
Could be, or it certainly is as well?. And if it is as well, would that refute that masjid means a place to perform sijood? I don?t think so because the author said
? I agree that "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud?
Then the author said
? but that place could be the heart or the mind as well?
I underlined the key words in the author comments above, clearly the author agrees that
- "masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud,
- that place could be the heart or the mind as well
From 1 & 2 together, we can conclude that the author agrees 100% to the following
"masjid" means a place where one performs the sujud,
The heart and the mind are also a PLACE, and a PLACE does not have to be physical.
Not sure about what the author is saying here, so he agrees that masjid is a place to do sijood in it, then he says the heart and mind are also PLACES that sujud can be performed in them, well I have to say that what will be performed in the heart and mind are the Belief in Allah and the other things we are required to believe in, part of that belief is to perform sijood in places where sijud can be performed in it, like a place on the wazn Maffal and is called masjid
In Arabic we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar issuing a fatwa". Now it is not a physical building that issued the fatwa but a group of people at an institution who issued the fatwa. Just like we say that the Senate or the Congress decided .......
LOL, a case of desperation by that author, he is looking for any thing to play with and come up with a fine tuned conjecture, well it seems that author lacks common sense, al masjid al azhar is a place and a building, and when the people on charge issue something (exactly as he said and similar to the white house issuing something), LOL, this is so funny, it seems he refuted himself
Now the senate is sitting in a house called the parliament house or another building dedicated to those members to meet and decide upon something, exactly like masjid al azhar which is also a building
Come on author we don?t need this confusion, bring verses from the Quran, not one or two, we need many, the word masjid is mentioned over 20 times in the Quran, ok it seems you are lazy, I will do it for ya, and see if it supports your allegation.
So masjid is an institution or a place which could be both physical and mental. We have to look at the context of the verses in each case to determine if its usage implies physical or mental.
Really?, so far it seems that Masjid is a physical place only, but doing sijood is the mental/physical thing, how the heck that author mixes the two?, sure he does not speak Arabic, and if he does then may Allah be with him
WHY AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE PHYSICAL
Ok we finished chapter 1 (The meaning of Masjid) and we saw nothing from the Quran, let?s move to chapter two and see if the author will get it right this time, now the author moved on to a specific subject which is al masjid al haram, and the author claims that it can?t be physical place, rather mental, let?s see
According to the context of 2144, al-masjid al-haram can only be mental and means the "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" which can easily be the mind or the heart.
ok, let?s bring that verse here
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
(144)
So the author is using the above verse to prove his allegation that al masjid al haram can not be a physical place to perform sijood in it, however it very strange that this author dodge all the other verses where al masjid al haram is mentioned and desperately using a verse that can be mutashabih to prove his allegation , it also seems that part of the package from that author is to confuse the hell out of us and mix it with the Qiblah issue.
See, the issue in hand is this
Is al masjid al haram a physical place to worship Allah in it or not?
That is the Question, forget the Qiblah matter, that is another one that can be resolved after we resolve this issue of al masjid al haram, you will not be able to confuse me mister author.
Now let?s look at the other verses where al masjid al haram was mentioned and see if it proves or contradict the allegation above
They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
(25)
-> See in the above verse, how someone hinders me from my heart and my mind?, a very good question for our knowledgeable author
This is a serious question indeed, because no one can hinder any one from their own hearts and minds, I?m sure the author will come back with some silly examples like masjid al azhar one, trying desperately to prove his allegation, he will say that yes people may hinder others from the mental status of al masjid al haram to make them unbelievers, well, the quran tells us something else which is the truth, that no one can hinder others hearts and minds
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion while his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
(106)
-> 16106 is a mother of all refutes to any future argument that some people may hinder others from the status of masjid al haram, i.e. hinder them from what they want to conclude in their own hearts and minds, see the example given above is someone who was a believer then was put under some sort of compulsion to utter Unbelief, WHILE HIS HEART REMAINED FIRM IN FAITH, i.e. faking disbelief if we are put under compulsion is allowed ? Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion while his heart remaining firm in Faith?, clearly no one can force anyone to change what is in the heart and the mind of that person, therefore the author argument is weakened a lot by just the above two verse, but let?s continue and see where else masjid al haram is mentioned
Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.
(27)
-> Again, verse 4827 refutes this silly allegation big times, it clearly tells us that the prophet was shown a vision, and this vision came to pass ? Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger?, and what was the vision? ? ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque?, now mister author may say yes it means to enter the heart and mind , LOL, not sure about that really, but if this is true, this means all that period before this vision came to pass the believers were confused including the prophet, why?, because they didn?t enter the heart and mind somehow, and again if this means enter the heart and mind ?not sure how we enter but I?m just trying to understand our author, you know we need a place to enter, and he said the heart and mind are also places?, now, when entering the heart and mind the prophet and his people did this as the vision came to pass ? , with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear.?, the second and third items raised my eye brow, ?heads shaved and hair cut short? ??, what is that mister author?. The verse ended by telling us what the vision truly was? and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.?, see a Victory which the history recorded very well, possibly the author will say, yeh it is the victory over evil in our hearts and minds, well then no judgment is required for the believers then, because since the prophet time all believers entered the status of masjid al haram ?the ultimate status of belief in the author?s eye?, Allah has granted this and came to pass about 1400 years ago.
As to those who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country - and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty.
(25)
-> 2225 is another case that confirm al masjid al haram is a physical place, see the verse says ? As to those who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque,?, now mister author has a lot of explanations to do, if al masjid al haram is the heart and mind being submitted to Allah, which means submitted to the the way of Allah, how come it is repeated in here??from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque?, unless they are two different things mister author.
-> Also we read above that Allah made al masjid al haram open ? which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country?, how my heart and mind will be open for all dwellers and visitors from the country?, another explanation required indeed
-> Now this is funny, the verse is warning humans ?and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty.? so in the author?s eye, if we enter the status of al masjid al haram then we do any wrong doing, we are punished severely, that sounds to me a bit sunni when they say if you become a Muslim then disbelieve you must be killed, LOL
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
(7)
-> Again and again our author is being refuted by the Quran that he uses himself, now we have a puzzle in here, the verse above is telling us ? How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque??, while the word NEAR is clearly indicating a physical place, let?s assume it is a mental status as our author is trying hard to convince us, so we can only honour the agreement with the Mushrikoon when we are near that mental status or al masjid al haram, but how we can judge being near that status?, and if we have an agreement with the Mushrikoon and we are not near that status then we can easily break it and not honour it and this is still good with Allah as it seems from the above verse
18- The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
19- Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
(1
(19)-> Now if al masjid al haram means ?the status of the mind and heart? then mister author has a big problem in hand as the above two verses will make absolutely no sense
Along with the above the following under the author meaning of al masjid al haram, the verse below will add to the confusion he created
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
(2
-> Man, this is the mother of all problems for the author, the verse is telling the believers ? O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.?, ok mister author which al masjid al haram exactly?, is it their hearts and minds or the believers hearts and minds?. Man, that is a crack of a laugh indeed, how the believers should not let the Mushrikoon approach the Mushrikoon?s status of al masjid al haram?, or should I say how the believers should not let the Mushrikoon approach the believers status of al masjid al haram?, either was it is clear cut non sense
Here is another serious problem for mister author
Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)..
(1)
-> Can anyone tell me how the prophet status changed or I should say travelled from the status of al masjid al haram to another status called al masjid al aqsa?, unless mister author considers al masjid al haram is a status but al masjid al aqsa is a physical place !!, well, even if it is the case, he still needs a lot of explanation to do, but I can?t see any possible play with 171, unless mister author is very clever.
And finally, another problem for mister author
And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.
(196)
-> 2196 is telling us some laws, without going through the laws in details, we read a condition in the verse ? This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque.?, now mister author needs to explain to us how we know that our household are not at the status of al masjid al haram?
Not strangely, Allah is warning us not to listen to those who are trying hard to change our obedience to the order of Allah to turn our faces towards al masjid al haram
And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
(150)
-> Firstly, why facing the hearts and minds as a status of al masjid al haram will make other people have no accusation on us??so that people shall have no accusation against you,?. how they know that we entered that status from the first place?, secondly Allah is telling us not to fear those people regarding turning our faces towards al masjid al harm ? so do not fear them, and fear Me,?, i.e. believe Allah in His Quran and not the people who try hard to manipulate the words from their intended meanings
Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
(46)
-> Now don?t take the above verse as specific to the Jews, because ?Al Lazeena Hadu? can also mean the ones who received the guidance
One can face this mental "masjid al-haram", "the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is. If al-masjid al-haram is physical then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is.
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards masjid al-haram; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
What about all the other verses posted above then mister author?
SCIENTIFIC PROOF
Ok, we move now from the assumption phase to the scientific phase, fine let?s see how scientific the proofs are
Now it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a focal point WHEREVER one is.
First of, why the author is trnaslati8ing ?Qiblah? as Focal Point?, this is weird, the Quran never said it is a focal point, Qiblah means direction
Firstly that assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is round. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
Ok, this is how scientific the author sees it?, well, the Quran never told us to worry about it scientifically, Allah only ordered us to face the direction of al masjid al haram, i.e. every true believer should do it and not worry about the others how they do it, remember to fear Allah not the people regarding the Qiblah, this schoolie so called science has nothing to do with the order from Allah to face al masjid al haram, it is not about facing a direction rather obeying the order of Allah,
The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
(142)
-> See, 2142 is directly telling us that those who really look at the Qiblah as a focal point that has changed, are really the fool ones, because Allah is every where ? To Allah belong both east and West?, i.e. changing the Qiblah is nothing but an order from Allah and people should obey without questioning
51- The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this they say, ?We hear and we obey? it is such as these that will attain felicity.
52- It is such as obey Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah and do right, that will win (in the end),
(51)
-> Now who is summoning us to face the direction of al masjid al haram?, it is Allah in His Quran for sure, therefore, the true believers should say ? We hear and we obey?
-> Another important point can not be missed, the author who is promoting this allegation about al masjid al haram that it is a status of the heart and mind under obedience, is this why Allah changed this status from something to another called al masjid al haram?, would that make sense to a child?
Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ?
Haha, that was funny, thanks for the laugh, as if we will carry devices in our hands to tell us if we meet this criteria, see how the author is the one that is looking at it as a focal point not an order from Allah to be obeyed without questioning?
Should one face one way or the opposite way then ?
A simple answer is this either way is fine, and even the wrong way is fine as long as the one who is doing it thought it was the right direction,
Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
See how the author is the one who wants to look at a building not really the true believers?
Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space, for example near MARS ?
LOL, that was a good one, sure the author also have sense of humour, red humour that is, LOL
Wow man, that was one hell of a scientific experience , hold on every one got to have a break and smoke a cigi to recap all the scientific data the author has provided, it was overwhelming amount of science and I need the cigi, sorry
PROOF FROM OTHER VERSES
Hello again folks, I had a nice break indeed, now it seems the author realized that the only evidence that may sway others is the Quran, I?m sure the author should have realized by now that he needs to tackle all the verses where al masjid al haram was mentioned, that is what I?m expecting the least
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
This 2142 is clear cut proof that the qiblah could not have been physical. If it was physical, it will make no sense for The God to say "to God is the east and the west" in reply to the foolish questioning about the new focal point.
The author is clearly missing the plot here, Allah is sure every where, but the order was not to look into Allah direction because Allah is every where, in fact if the author remembers the verse about changing the Qiblah, the prophet was already looking into the Heavens where Allah is there also, but the order was not to look in a direction where Allah is located rather the order was to look in a specific direction that has nothing to do with Allah location because Allah is every where.
I commented on 2142 earlier.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
I can see how hard the author is trying to find verses to play with, the problem with the author is this Allah never told us to face the direction of the east neither the west nor to him physically, rather to al masjid al haram, so the above verse does not prove anything regarding his flawed claim
All these verses and the above mentioned scientific facts prove that the focal point is not physical but mental.
LOL, the author proved nothing but at least he proved his lack of knowledge with the Arabic Quran, because somehow he is ignoring all the other verses that I posted above where al masjid al haram is mentioned
HISTORICAL PROOF
Now let?s talk Hearsay, sorry I mean History
Also at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, there is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of a PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of "masjid al-haram".
That name was given to a physical building many years after the qur'aan was revealed so how could The God be referring to a physical building in the qur'aan when it did not even exist ?
the author need to provide strong evidences to support his statement above.
Well, the author need evidences that this is the case, but here is some hearsay, sorry I mean history
Treaty of Hudaybiyya
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Background
The Treaty of Hudaybiyya was signed in 628. In 628 C.E. a group of 1,600 Muslims marched towards Mecca, in an attempt to peacefully perform the pilgrimage. "Then he marched till he reached al-Hudaybiyya which lies at the limit of the Haram area at a distance of nine miles from Mecca."The group was prepared with sacrificial animals, as they hoped that the Quraish would honour the Arabian custom of allowing unarmed pilgrims to enter the city. The Quraish, however, intercepted the Muslim party, well outside Mecca. By this time all of Arabia was aware of the military strength of the Muslims. Muhammad, the leader of the Muslims, was also desperate to avoid bloodshed in or near the holiest city of Islam. Therefore the two parties decided to resolve the matter through diplomacy, rather than warfare."Today whatever condition Quraysh make in which they ask me to show kindness to kindred I shall agree to".
The Treaty
The basic outline of the treaty was as follows "In the name of Allah. These are the conditions of Peace between Muhammad, son of Abdullah and Suhail Ibn 'Amr the envoy of Mecca. There will be no fighting for ten years. Anyone who wishes to join Muhammad and to enter into any agreement with him is free to do so. Anyone who wishes to join the Quraish and to enter into any agreement with them is free to do so. A young man, or one whose father is alive, if he goes to Muhammad without permission from his father or guardian, will be returned to his father or guardian. But if anyone goes to the Quraish, he will not be returned. This year Muhammad will go back without entering Mecca. But next year he and his followers can enter Mecca, spend three days, perform the circuit. During these three days the Quaraish will withdraw to the surrounding hills. When Muhammad and his followers enter into Mecca, they will be unarmed except for sheathed swords which wayfarers in Arabia always have with them."Controversy
The treaty was quite controversial for many reasons. Originally the treaty referred to Muhammad as the "Messenger of God". The pagan Arabs refused to sign any such document. This, however, was taken out despite great opposition from Muslim scribes. But, perhaps, the greatest objection to those who doubted the wisdom of the pact was directed to the provision that any Quraish member joining the Muslims without the permission of his guardian would have to be returned to Quraish, and that any apostate from Islam would not have to be returned to Medina. Muhammad's opinion in this matter centered on the consideration that the apostate from Islam who seeks the shelter of Quraish is not really worthy of readmission to the Muslim community; that for the convert who wished to join that community but who was not allowed to at present, Allah would soon find an outlet.After the signing of the treaty, there was still great fury amongst the Muslim side. Muhammad ordered that Muslims perform their sacred rites there and then, and return to Medina. Many Muslims, however, refused to do so. Some openly questioned whether the Prophet's decision to opt for peace was a right one. In the end, the Muhammad's wife, Um-Salamah, solved the matter by asking him to perform the rites, irregardless of his companions' wishes, and leave for Medina.
Aftermath
The Meccans and their allies broke the treaty by attacking the tribe of Khuza'a within a year. The next year the Muslims march on Mecca and the City and take control unopposed.Islam spread widely and quickly during the two years period. While those who accompanied Muhammad to Hudaybiya counted one thousand and four hundred, those who accompanied him on his conquest of Mecca two years later counted well over ten thousand.
The mind/heart is a PLACE, so of course it can be the masjid, especially "masjid al-haram" and one can face this "institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden" WHEREVER one is.
Another ignorant unfounded, baseless conjecture, how about all the verses where al masjid al haram was mentioned?, of yeh, they don?t serve his concept
Peace mate
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As I mentioned before the Arabic word ?Kharra? means drop down, scientifically speaking it would be under the effect of the gravity, and spiritually speaking it will be like totally declaring the submission to Allah by going down, 3215 is a metaphor and the sijood mentioned was not really the one we required to do to Allah, that sijood mentioned in 3215 is a metaphor on what the believers should do WHEN THEY ARE REMINDED WITH THE SIGNS OF ALLAH
Salam Ahmed,
I do not agree that it means drop down physically. Submission will be more meaningful word to describe. Am I correct?
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Peace to all,
Although there are some folks attached to a focal point/direction, which appear to be uniting/good for people. But if one look at it at the community/ummah level it is a desaster. For example, billions are going to hajj every year. Imagine if this wasted money can be channel into Africa how many lives it could save? God know how many people have died of hunger, diseases while I am writing this? This is just an example, but I hope we should have/form solutions with a global vision, as Allah put us here do put things in order so that the harmony within Allah's system could be balanced.
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Before continuing this nice discussions any further first
A PRAYER AND SOME SUTRAS AND SOME WISDOM
IN THE NAME OF UNLIMITED OCEAN OF COMPASSION AND MERCY
MY SINCERE ADMIRATION FOR THE GRAND WRITER OF THE AWESOME BOOKS OF CREATION.
THE ONE WHO WROTE OUT OF COMPASSION AND MERCY.
THE OWNER OF THAT MIGHTY MOMENT OF RECREATION, WHEN MY LIFE REPORT WILL BE PRESENTED AND MANIFESTED INTO A NEW EXISTENCE.
O LORD, WE SUBMIT TO BE THE PLAYERS OF YOUR GRAND SYMPHONY , AND FOLLOW YOUR HANDS.
SHOW US THE ROAD OF STRAIGHTNESS.
THE ROAD OF THOSE GRANTED GOD-CONSCIUOSENESS, SELF-CONSCIOUSENESS AND FORGIVENESS.
NOT THAT OF DARK-HEARTED, WORLD-WORSHIPERS AND SELF-WORSHIPERS.
MY SELF BOWS FOR YOUR GLORY AND MY SELF TOUCHES THE GROUND OF NOTHINGNESS.
THANK YOU FOR ALL THAT YOU GIVE AND FORGIVE OUR SELFISH SHORTCOMINGS.
THE SMELL OF THE ROSES OF COMPASSION COMES WHILE I AM STANDING IN FRONT OF THE DOORS OF YOUR GARDEN. THOSE DOORS WILL BE OPENED ONLY BY YOUR HAND AND WHEN YOU WILL.TO KNOW YOURSELF?
ONCE ONE IS ONE,
NO MORE, NO LESS
ERROR BEGINS WITH DUALITY;
UNITY KNOWS NO ERROR.
THE ROAD YOUR SELF MUST JOURNEY ON
LIES IN POLISHING THE MIRROR OF YOUR HEART.
IT IS NOT BY REBELLION AND DISCORD
THAT THE HEART?S MIRROR IS POLISHED FREE
OF THE RUST OF HYPOCRISY AND UNBELIEF
YOUR MIRROR IS POLISHED BY YOUR CERTITUDE ?
BY THE UNALLOYED PURITY OF YOUR FAITH.
BREAK FREE FROM THE CHAINS YOU HAVE FORGED ABOUT YOURSELF;
FOR YOU WILL BE FREE WHEN YOU ARE FREE OF CLAY.
THE BODY IS DARK ? THE HEART IS SHINING BRIGHT;
THE BODY IS MERE COMPOST ? THE HEART A BLOOMING GARDEN.
A RUBY, THERE, IS JUST A PIECE OF STONE
AND SPIRITUAL EXCELLENCE THE HEIGHT OF FOLLY.
SILENCE IS PRAISE ? HAVE DONE WITH SPEECH;
YOUR CHATTER WILL ONLY BRING YOU HARM AND SORROW ?
HAVE DONE!
BELIEF AND UNBELIEF
BOTH HAVE THEIR ORIGIN
IN YOUR HYPOCRITE?S HEART;
THE WAY IS ONLY LONG
BECAUSE YOU DELAY TO START ON IT
ONE SINGLE STEP
WOULD BRING YOU TO HIM
BECOME A SLAVE,
AND YOU WILL BE A KING.
THE DUMB FIND TONGUES,
WHEN THE SCENT OF LIFE REACHES THEM
FROM HIS SOUL.
LISTEN TRULY ? AND DON?T BE FOOLED ?
THIS IS NOT FOR FOOLS
ALL THESE DIFFERENT SHADES
BECOME ONE COLOR
IN THE JAR OF UNITY;
THE ROPE BECOMES SLENDER
WHEN REDUCED TO A SINGLE STRAND.
YOUR INTELLECT IS JUST A HOTCH-POTCH
OF GUESSWORK AND THOUGHT,
LIMPING OVER THE FACE OF THE EARTH;
WHEREVER THEY ARE, HE IS NOT;
THEY ARE CONTAINED WITHIN HIS CREATION.
MAN AND HIS REASON ARE JUST THE LATEST
RIPENING PLANTS IN HIS GARDEN.
WHATEVER YOU ASSERT ABOUT HIS NATURE
YOU ARE BOUND TO BE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH,
LIKE A BLIND MAN TRYING TO DESCRIBE
THE APPEARANCE OF HIS OWN MOTHER.
WHILE REASON IS STILL TRACKING DOWN THE SECRET,
YOU END YOUR QUEST ON THE OPEN FIELD OF LOVE.
THE PATH CONSISTS IN NEITHER WORDS NOR DEEDS
ONLY DESOLATION CAN COME FROM THESE,
AND NEVER ANY LASTING EDIFICE.
SWEETNESS AND LIFE ARE THE WORDS
OF THE MAN WHO TREADS THIS ROAD IN SILENCE;
WHEN HE SPEAKS IT IS NOT FROM IGNORANCE,
AND WHEN HE IS SILENT IT IS NOT FROM SLOTH.The only secret of attaining happiness is to learn how to appreciate our privileges in life. If we cultivate that sense of appreciation we shall be thankful, we shall be contented and every moment we shall offer our thanks to God, for His gifts are many and enormous. When we do not see them it is because our wants cover our eyes from seeing all with which we are blessed by Providence. No meditation, no study, nothing can help in that direction, except one thing, and that is to keep our eyes open to appreciate every little privilege in life, to admire every glimpse of beauty that comes before us, being thankful for every little love, kindness or affection shown to us by young or old, rich or poor, wise or foolish. In this way, continually developing the faculty of appreciating life and devoting it to thanksgiving, we arrive at a bliss which no words can explain, a bliss which is beyond imagination the bliss that we find ourselves having already entered the kingdom of God.
peace,
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Peace bm,
I think that perhaps the answer to your original question was a little lost in the middle of the discussion.
I am worried seeing people worshiping God towards Mecca/Kabba/cube/blackstone, particularly my parents and friends. When I want to clarify this I am treated as someone who has gone mad and basically someone who left Islam! My worry is will these people go to hell ? as according to the Reading if they die like this ? . I am trying my best but it makes me more worried as it is very very difficult to convince them. The reply is always that there are millions of Muslims doing 5 prayers towards Mecca and that I am the one who is bewitched by the Internet and after getting a PhD. I am confused and really sad by all this.
Those who go to heaven ultimately go there by their Lord's mercy (409). It is also true that they go there by the balance of the good deeds (78-9). However, those two things are interconnected because The God protects those who he has mercy on from bad deeds (409). On the other hand, those who have faith in the stone cube in Mecca think that their sins will be wiped out and they will return as if they are newborn and go to heaven as a result of spinning seven times around the cube and waving at, fondling, or kissing the Black Stone. They have thus setup the stone cube as a partner between them and The God. The God nullifies the deeds of those who setup partners with Him (for example 917) so it doesn't matter what seemingly good deeds they did.
So my suggestion to you is to show them the evidence from the message. One can see the truth shining through even in Sunni-influenced translations
002.148
YUSUFALI To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together. For Allah Hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL And each one hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.Notice how YUSUFALI and PICKTHAL translate what we are facing as "goal" and NOT a physical direction in 2148 because in relation to facing a physical direction "striving together towards all that is good" or "vie with one another in good works" doesn't make any sense.
002.149
YUSUFALI From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
PICKTHAL And whencesoever thou comest forth (for prayer, O Muhammad) turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship. Lo! IT is the Truth from thy Lord. Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely IT is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.Again even in those Sunni translations, one can see the truth shining through. We are clearly told in no uncertain terms that "al-masjid al-haram" is THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD not a physical place.
Now for those who The God guided facing a physical direction (the previous "qibla") is not a big deal (2143). Those are the ones who when shown the clear evidence from the great reading realize that a physical direction is not what is meant. You can see if it is a big deal or not if your parents are not too strict about the physical direction and for example, will pray even if they don't know which way to face.
As for those who love the Kaaba and fantasize about one day kissing and fondling the Black Stone, they will come up with every excuse to imagine to be facing it and set it up as a partner between them and The God. Their favorite excuse is that by doing so they are "obeying the order of Allah" when in fact they are unable to read the clear simple truth in the great reading. All they can do is copy and paste passages from the great reading and parrot the dogma they inherited from their forefathers. They use their inherited dogma to shed light on the great reading as opposed to using the great reading to shed light on everything. This is what differentiates the hypocrites from those who truly follow the message/messenger as we can empirically verify even here on this forum. Indeed a physical direction (the previous "qibla") is a big deal except for those who The God guided.
So in summary, show your parents and friends the message in 2142-150. The change in the "qibla" will differentiate between those who follow the message/messenger and those who turn on their heels.
If your parents are from those that The God guided then they will not see the previous physical "qibla" as a big deal and they will see the wisdom in setting as their goal the truth from their Lord all the times wherever they are and not just on the prayer mat or in the mosque. If they are not from those that The God guided then
- You do not guide whom you love but The God guides whom He wills and He is more knowledgeable of those who are guided.
If they strive against you to make you venerate a stone cube then just follow 298 and 3115.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace bm,
Thanks for your information to answer my original question. It is indeed very informative. I also realise that the discussion deviated slightly from the original question lol Though critical discussion produce evidence/answers.
Most of us faced this same issue. I myself coming from a Muslim Sunni community have asked the same questions. I used the approach that I posted and it worked with some but it didn't work with others. The ones that it worked with didn't think of the physical direction as a big deal to begin with. For example, they would just face anywhere if they weren't sure about the direction and they would certainly not think of their prayers being nullified if they didn't face a certain direction as the majority of sectarians think.
Peace,
Ayman