Reincarnation
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Salam Brook,
I repeat
There is no such thing as immortality called ruh in man, which can be brought bact to life phisically or spiritually. Only God is immortal. What is taken away from man during death is his vitality, which is given back to him during the resurrection in the afterlife.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ayLet me speak about myself,, I did not say that the soul is immortal..The soul has an end on this earth, the soul that is inside us now... the same way the sun and the moon and the whole universe have an end.. "Li Ajalin Musamma"= 'up untill a certain timing'. But till that end comes what about the journey it goes through..? Thanx
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Hello TAJ,
I do believe that we are born innocent and my question was about the sins that humans commit later on.
OK but tell me TAJ is being born innocent means we have a Karmic Debt of zero? If so then Karma was not responsible for our birth because Karmic debt of zero means we have been liberated and hence enlightened and therefore there was no need to be born again. So why are we being born innocent into this world for what purpose?
I understood from your earlier post that such things are learned and not from our nature...
Our nature is not Evil TAJ - why would God create us with Evil Nature? So if we are not born Evil then where does Evil come from? It can only come from how we deal with experiences in Life? It can only come from in how we exercise our God-given Freedom of Will in LIFE?
Dealing with others is part of the experience.
Yes, very much so. Perhaps that is the Exploration that we are here to do?
That is sufi stuff, Lote. "To be identical with it"... Isn't that what we call in
Arabic Momaahatt?Not really TAJ. It is in Buddhism too. In Sufism the word is "Fanaa" meaning "anahalation". In Buddhism it means "Nirvana" meaning "blowing out" or "extinction". They both mean "absorption" or "reunion" of the "self" in "God" in the ONE-NESS, in the UNITY. It is like a water droplet that got separated from the sea that fell in the mountains and journeyed through the streams and rivers to be reunited with the sea to become the sea.
Regards,
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Peace brother Ahmed, all,
Great post by brother Ahmed.
I voted NO for reincarnation. Please see the following link for a thread I started last year for discussion about reincarnation
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3969
Please see the following link for a comprehensive discussion last year about the 2 deaths mentioned in the qur'aan
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3995
BTW Taj is a she and not a he as implied by brother Ahmed's post !! lol I don't know what happened to her camel avatar with the woman in the hijab though !
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Peace all. To me life is an eternal journey of trying to follow ones conscience/real nature. The person/soul can grow in goodness/knowledge/happiness by being true to his real nature.
Or decline
in happiness/knowledge/goodness by following false desires and illusions.
Im sure we have had previous lives,and will have future lives...we live in an eternal cycle. Awareness/realisation of ones true nature is very important... Hint Know thyself and know god...Who is god? D
Peace all. -
Salam Brook,
Ruh ?soul- means only one thing in the Quran divine revelation.
Ruh is God?s orders and advice. The angel of revelation is called Ruh al-Kuds because of his mission, just as history professors may be called walking history.
Verses
They will ask you about the ruh. Say "This ruh comes at my Sustainer?s behest." (1785)This is indeed the word of a noble Messenger (8119). Ruhu?l-Kuds has brought it down from your Sustainer by stages. (16102). The Ruhu?l-Ameen, the Trustworthy Ruh, has alighted it from on high (26193).
And what God breathes into the people whom He creates is but His command "Be!"
Verses
The nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him "Be!" And he is. (359). We sent Mary Our ruh, who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being (1917). He said, "I am but a messenger of your Sustainer..." (1919). We breathed into her of Our ruh and caused her, together with her son, to become a symbol of Our grace unto all people (2191). The Christ Jesus, son of mary, was but God?s messenger, His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary ?and a ruh by Him (4171).
"... and then He forms man in accordance with what he is meant to be and breathes into him His ruh (329).
"... and when I have formed Adam fully and breathed into him My ruh, fall down before him in prostration." (1529; 3872).
I repeat
There is no such thing as immortality called ruh in man, which can be brought bact to life phisically or spiritually. Only God is immortal. What is taken away from man during death is his vitality, which is given back to him during the resurrection in the afterlife.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ayI need to correct what I wrote to you earlier..
Let me speak about myself,, I did not say that the soul is immortal..The soul has an end on this earth, the soul that is inside us now... the same way the sun and the moon and the whole universe have an end.. "Li Ajalin Musamma"= 'up untill a certain timing'. But till that end comes what about the journey it goes through..?
What I talked about above is the 'Nafs'. I don't know if 'soul' is the correct match for it. The 'Nafs' does have an end, but the 'Ruh' does not. Maybe 'Spirit' is the match for 'Ruh'. The word 'Ruh' in the Ayat of Al Quran is never mentioned with the word 'create'. Those two words never come together. The 'Ruh' is blown into us or sent down... but never created, unlike the word 'Nafs' which comes with words like 'create', 'die', 'kill'...
The 'Ruh' comes from Allah and it is from 'Amr' Allah so I would conclude that it is not only immortal, as it comes from Allah, but also that we are not given the 3ilm enough to know much about it .
So we have a 'Ruh' Allah inside us, as well as the 'Nafs' which is coupled inside us . -
Salam AhmedBahgat,
I want to know if you know the difference in meaning between the two words 'Mayyit' and 'Mayt'?
Salam Taj
can you please make it a bit clearer to me as i always find it hard to read arabic words in english letters, i tried to pronounce them according to the english letters but could not make work it out
is there any chance you put them an Arabic?
thanks
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Peace be upon you,
I havent gotten caught up but I read the last few posts. I just wanted to add my understanding of the topic
I have "ruh" as Divine Energy and Nafs as "Spirit"
Basically the polarity of energy/matter, keeping in mind that even thoughts are matter.
The matter side will lose form but the energy will always remain.
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Peace Kyle,
Peace be upon you,
I havent gotten caught up but I read the last few posts. I just wanted to add my understanding of the topic
I have "ruh" as Divine Energy and Nafs as "Spirit"
Basically the polarity of energy/matter, keeping in mind that even thoughts are matter.
The matter side will lose form but the energy will always remain.
Do you mean to say that "energy is divine"?
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Sure, Ahmed.
The two words areSalam Taj
That is what I expected that the difference is Tashkil only and the letters are the same
you can't actually use tashkil in indvidual words, as the tashkil is part of the whole sentence and context but i can imagine what sentences and contexts these two identical words mean in each
the first one prnounced as "mayt" means "Dead"
the second one prnounced "mayyat" also means "Dead"
Salam
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What I talked about above is the 'Nafs'. I don't know if 'soul' is the correct match for it.
If you mean man's awareness by soul, yes. Man has it during his waking hours but is deprived of it during sleep until he is woken up again into this life. He is also deprived of it during death until he is resurrected in the afterlife.
It is God that takes the nafs from man at death; and (from) those that die not He takes it during their sleep (3942).
The 'Ruh' is blown into us or sent down...
Yes. It means divine revelation. But the fact that God blows it into us simply means He says "Be!" and we are; in other words, it is simply divine revelation again. It does not mean that God blows something divine into our existence and that we are part human and part divine. No.
The 'Ruh' comes from Allah and it is from 'Amr' Allah so I would conclude that it is not only immortal, as it comes from Allah, but also that we are not given the 3ilm enough to know much about it .
I am not sure that I understand. Do you mean ruh is part of us; so we are partly immortal?
If you are basing the claim on 1785, you are misinterpreting the verse because 1785 is again about Quranic revlelation; not something devine blown into us so that we become partly immortal.
Please read the preceding verses (Muhammed Asad)
Thus, step by step, We bestow from on high through this Quran all that gives health and grace unto those who believe in us, the while it only adds to the ruin of evildoers (83) for (it often happens that) when We bestow Our blessings upon man, he turns away and arrogantly keeps aloof (from any thought of us); and when evil fortune touches himi he abandons all hope (84).
So we have a 'Ruh' Allah inside us...
Sorry I have to disagree, pal. No, we do not have a ruh inside us. We have only nafs, which is our awareness such as our senses, moral values... God takes it form us when we sleep. Plus, He takes life or vitality from us when we die.
Death is the termination of our awaremess (nafs) and vitality.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Salam Brook,
In your first post you brought the following ayat
"... and then He forms man in accordance with what he is meant to be and breathes into him His ruh (329).
"... and when I have formed Adam fully and breathed into him My ruh, fall down before him in prostration." (1529; 3872).Then you wrote something opposite to what the Quran says!
The 'Ruh' is blown into us or sent down...
Yes. It means divine revelation. But the fact that God blows it into us simply means He says "Be!" and we are; in other words, it is simply divine revelation again. It does not mean that God blows something divine into our existence and that we are part human and part divine. No.
So we have a 'Ruh' Allah inside us...
Sorry I have to disagree, pal. No, we do not have a ruh inside us. We have only nafs, which is our awareness such as our senses, moral values... God takes it form us when we sleep. Plus, He takes life or vitality from us when we die.
Death is the termination of our awaremess (nafs) and vitality.
Study the creation of Adam from the Ayat. In the case of creation of Adam,, the word 'Be' is not there. Adam was not created by means of 'Be'. Adam's body was 'made'= 'Sawwaituhu'. And after his body was made and his Nafses, the Nafs and it's 'couple'= 'Zawj' , were created, Ruh Allah was blown into Adam. That is what the Quran says.
Sorry I have to disagree, pal. No, we do not have a ruh inside us. We have only nafs, which is our awareness such as our senses, moral values... God takes it form us when we sleep. Plus, He takes life or vitality from us when we die.
Mad, insane, people still have Nafs(es) inside them, no awareness of any values though.
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TAJ,
I said that in all the ayat of the Quran ruh means only one thing divine revelation to convey God?s commands and advice. 329; 1529, and 3872 are no exception. Ruh stands for God?s command in them too.
Take 1529 for example
and when I have formed Adam fully and breathed into him My ruh...
Here the verbatim translation of ezaa nafahto feehe min ruhin is when I have breated into him My ruh, which actually denotes His command "Be!" in order to give Adam vitality on top of his shape.
This part of 1529 then reads like this
and when I have formed Adam fully and given him vitality by issuing my command Be...
In the case of creation of Adam,, the word 'Be' is not there. Adam was not created by means of 'Be'.
It is there. Look at 359; you will see God?s creating Adam and His issuing the command "Be!" there
The nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him "Be!" And he is.
So we have a 'Ruh' Allah inside us, as well as the 'Nafs' which is coupled inside us .
I am sorry but I have to repeat God?s truth what we have inside us is not an iota of divine ruh but all the human traits of nafs such as our wishes, feelings, senses, values, choices. That is the way we respond to life around us. Or rather that is our awareness.
You don?t need to install any divine piece in man so that he will do good deeds as well as bad; nafs is comprehensive enough to cause both.
Now. Verily, it is We who have created man, and We know what his nafs whispers within him for We are closer to him than his neck-vein. (5016)
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Peace Hasan,
If Nafs = awareness, and Ruh = Divine Revelation, and you go on to say
Death is the termination of our awaremess (nafs) and vitality.
then what part of "us" is eternal? And what is the Qur'anic term for "vitality"?
1961 Gardens of Eternity, those which Most Gracious has promised to His servants in the Unseen for His promise must come to pass.
God has promised eternal life. Therefore, some aspect of us must be eternal/immortal. How do you explain this?
Peace,
Tay -
what part of "us" is eternal?
Everyone's renewed nafs. With the resurrection it is renewed like a passport, whose term has expired. Now it is held responsible for its past deeds (817), but deprived of the formerly bestowed right to make choices and corrections as a student sitting for a test (3650). God has lifted from it its veil now; as a result sharp is its sight (5022) to the extent that its hands and legs stand witness against itself (3665).
And what is the Qur'anic term for "vitality"?
Haayy (3670). Vitality and awareness coexist during one?s waking hours, but awareness is taken away temporarily at sleep; then one has only vitality by itself (3942).
God has promised eternal life. Therefore, some aspect of us must be eternal/immortal. How do you explain this?
This world is temporary, and we live mortal lives in it; which shows that immortality counts only in the afterlife (22101-102). However, the word haleduun may have a different meaning than eternal in terms of one?s stay in the hell because its dwellers will be transferrred to heaven after they pay for their past sins or if God pardons them .
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Peace Hassan,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I don't mean to split hairs but I do feel this is important enough to be precise...
Everyone's renewed nafs. With the resurrection it is renewed like a passport, whose term has expired.
Following your example of a passport, we must then assume that one is not issued a new nafs, but more succinctly, the same nafs is given this renewal, and hence, the "pass" into eternity. Agreed?
Vitality and awareness coexist during one?s waking hours, but awareness is taken away temporarily at sleep; then one has only vitality by itself
What of those who remember their dreams, or become conscious during dreams and make decisions within those dreams? Does this not count as awareness?
This world is temporary, and we live mortal lives in it; which shows that immortality counts only in the afterlife
Of course, but it is immortality nonetheless.
the word haleduun may have a different meaning than eternal in terms of one?s stay in the hell because its dwellers will be transferrred to heaven after they pay for their past sins or if God pardons them .
I was not aware of this. Could you please quote the ayah in support of your position.
Thanks for your patience.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam Ahmed,
Sure, Ahmed.
The two words areSalam Taj
That is what I expected that the difference is Tashkil only and the letters are the same
you can't actually use tashkil in indvidual words, as the tashkil is part of the whole sentence and context but i can imagine what sentences and contexts these two identical words mean in each
the first one prnounced as "mayt" means "Dead"
the second one prnounced "mayyat" also means "Dead"
Salam
Do you think that the difference in the Tashkeel does not affect the meaning even though the letters are the same?
pronounced Mayt means dead as in corpse, compeletely lifeless.
pronounced Mayyit means that the death is written on the person. Like you and I are Mayyitoon even though I am writing this now and you are reading it. We are Mayyitoon (La Ma7aalah= can't get away from death). Death is written on us, so we are Mayyitoon. We are going to taste death. Another meaning for Mayyit is to be in the state of dying, to be struggling with death but there is life in the body still.
So our bodies will die and our Nafses will be held, of course, sooner or later, regardless of the type of journey, as there an 'Ajalin Musaman'= determined timing.
The Ruh will be blown out of us the same way it was blown inside us. But will the Ruh go back to Allah or will it be blown inside another body? The same question about the Nafs, since we are created from ONE Nafs?