Armed Conflict, Violence, and the Quran

oneway

peace Oneway.
in your thread u posted the link http//www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2702 to Dave Miller's article about the "violent" verses of the Koran .

2190-194 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than killng. And do not fight them at the restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers. And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. What is done in the restricted month may be retaliated in the same month, and murder shall be punishable by execution. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of God, and know that God is with the righteous.

Remember the Koranic rules of fighting

? fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress
? do not fight them at the restricted Temple unless they fight you in it;
? If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked
? Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you

Keep these rules in mind while reading all the verses posted in Dave Miller?s article . then tell us if u still find the verses "violent"

474 So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them, then bind them securely. Then you may either set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. And had God willed, He alone could have beaten them, but He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

2216-217 Fighting has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; God knows while you do not know. They ask you about the restricted month "Is there fighting in it?" Say "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at the restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than killing." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!

91-5 And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people on this day of the extended Pilgrimage "That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set-up partners." If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may kill those who have set-up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the salat, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful. And if any of those who have set-up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know.

.....
...
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I think the author of that article laid out the case better than I could, but in response to your question, doesn't the fact that there exist "Koranic rules for fighting" prove that it endorses violence?

474 "So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them..."

Sure sounds violent to me.

Peace,
oneway.

Fahad1

peace.

I think the author of that article laid out the case better than I could,

the author is relying on extra Koranic sources .

but in response to your question, doesn't the fact that there exist "Koranic rules for fighting" prove that it endorses violence?

only against those who fight u . and in like manner . whats wrong in it ? it is only allowed in self defence .

474 "So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them..."

Sure sounds violent to me.

wouldnt they strike your neck , if u dont strike theirs ? this is self defence .

u are not keeping the rules in mind .

sometimes fighting becomes a necessity

2251 ..If God had not repelled some people by means of others, the earth would have been corrupted

phoenix1

peace oneway, all

fighting with guns and swords somtimes becomes necessary (for someone who supports the war in iraq, you should know this). I don't like violence, i'd rather find other means to solve my problems. But sometimes you have to do things you don't like. The quran never says we should carry guns with us everyday shooting people that don't agree with our beliefs.

unknownuser

peace oneway, all

fighting with guns and swords somtimes becomes necessary (for someone who supports the war in iraq, you should know this). I don't like violence, i'd rather find other means to solve my problems. But sometimes you have to do things you don't like. The quran never says we should carry guns with us everyday shooting people that don't agree with our beliefs.

Good point bro

I can imagine someone red faced

Fahad1

can the moderators please add red faced emoticon ?

oneway

can the moderators please add red faced emoticon ?

No red faces here, friends. smile

I obviously agree that fighting is sometimes necessary and even just.

All I said was that the Quran endorses violence. You've confirmed that for me. Thanks!

The question of whether the "Koranic rules of fighting" you extracted from that one verse apply to all verses in the Quran that deal with violence is fodder for another debate. I think many of them leave lots of room for interpretation that many Muslims clearly aren't interpreting the way you are.

Cheers,
oneway.

phoenix1

peace oneway,

different interpretations exist for everything. doesn't mean every interpretation is right though.
and i don't get your position on this topic.
so the quran endorses violence. is that a bad thing?
the quran says violence is necessary sometimes. And then it lays down some rules for us on how to fight. what is the harm in that?

savage_carrot

All I said was that the Quran endorses violence.

So do you, your Bible and your country (it even endorses pre-emptive violence). What does that prove?

You can justify it any way you want to, and complain that the 'Muslims' are using it for 'terrorism', when in reality the quran endorses violence in self defence not any ole time you feel like chopping someone's head off for serving you bad tea.

Christians have been lopping off heads for the church, greed and corruption in days past using their Bible and other sordid tales to justify it. Did that make the people or the book 'bad'? Answer this. Are the people 'bad' or is a text 'bad'?

You can't blame it on the quran, especially since you can't even PROVE that it's any different than self defence and the verses in the entire quran speak a different story than the one you are 'used' to. You want to find something to blame for the 'terrorism', find a better reason.

oneway

All I said was that the Quran endorses violence.

So do you, your Bible and your country (it even endorses pre-emptive violence). What does that prove?

You can justify it any way you want to, and complain that the 'Muslims' are using it for 'terrorism', when in reality the quran endorses violence in self defence not any ole time you feel like chopping someone's head off for serving you bad tea.

Christians have been lopping off heads for the church, greed and corruption in days past using their Bible and other sordid tales to justify it. Did that make the people or the book 'bad'? Answer this. Are the people 'bad' or is a text 'bad'?

You can't blame it on the quran, especially since you can't even PROVE that it's any different than self defence and the verses in the entire quran speak a different story than the one you are 'used' to. You want to find something to blame for the 'terrorism', find a better reason.

A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

So, now the question is whether or not these "Koranic rules of fighting" cover every instance where violence is mentioned in the Quran. I do not believe they do.

Here's one example

434 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

or from another translation

434 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands? absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them , then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

The "Koranic rules of fighting" referenced earlier apply to warfare. Even if I grant you that they apply to all warfare related verses discussing violence in the Quran, they certainly don't relate to 434 which has nothing to do with warfare.

434 endorses domestic violence. Will you now argue that this is a just practice as well?

(editing to answer a direct question I did not answer when I first made this post)

You asked, "Are the people 'bad' or is a text 'bad'?"

Generally, people often have applied misinterpretation to justify misdeeds. So people certainly are bad in that context. I think the verse above shows that the text is bad as well in this case.

Regards,
oneway

Fahad1

peace.

can the moderators please add red faced emoticon ?

No red faces here, friends. smile

I obviously agree that fighting is sometimes necessary and even just.

All I said was that the Quran endorses violence. You've confirmed that for me. Thanks!

so do u agree that the Koranic rules of fighting are just .

The question of whether the "Koranic rules of fighting" you extracted from that one verse apply to all verses in the Quran that deal with violence is fodder for another debate.

tell us if u can find any other rules in the Koran.

here are some other veres from the Koran that lay down the rules . these rules cover all the fighting mentioned in the Koran .

Koran's call for peace

GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

........ Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

When does Koran permit fighting

Permission is granted to those who are being persecuted, to fight , and GOD is certainly able to support them.
They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is GOD." If it were not for GOD's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids - where the name of GOD is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, GOD supports those who support Him. GOD is Powerful, Almighty.
They are those who, if we appointed them as rulers on earth, they would establish the Salat and the Zakat, and would advocate righteousness and forbid evil. GOD is the ultimate ruler.

You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

Fighting in the cause of God

Those who readily fight in the cause of GOD are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of GOD, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense. Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."

do u find these rules unjust ? what do u say now ?

I think many of them leave lots of room for interpretation that many Muslims clearly aren't interpreting the way you are.

u dont judge a religion by its followers , right ? wink

peace.

arnoldyasin

Peace ,

Nice try oneway, but that verse is proven to be translated wrong. Daraba means to hit, to depart and so on. That they chosen to hit, out of the 20 different words they could have chosen, tells more about the translators not the Quran. If you follow the verses closely, you see the next verse talks about splitting up or not, and the Quran never endorses sin, so the word, and is also only the logical one, means to leave. The first 2 advises are used to resolve the issue, and then suddenly you can hit the woman?

No. clearly this word means to depart. First you talk, then you leave each other alone, then as a last resort you leave. If you want to talk about violence and discrimination of women, we can also have a nice look about the Bible. But here read this before you say anything

http//www.free-minds.org/women/beating.htm

And
BEATING WOMEN, OR BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, OR....

Edip Yuksel

"Verse 434 of the Quran orders believers to beat their wives; so, Islam is a male dominant religion." Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Personally, every time I read 434, I felt that something was wrong. How does God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It is in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage

"Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (3021)
Obviously, this mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they tried to soften the word "beat" when they translate the verse 434. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parentheses after "beat" to save women

". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (434)
Many tried to "beat" around the bush to "beat" the problem generated by the "beat" of 434.
When I finished the Turkish translation (1991), this verse was on the top of my orange list to study carefully. Whenever I encounter a problem regarding the understanding of a Quranic verse, I remember 20114 and pray accordingly "Most Exalted is God, the only true King. Do not rush into (understanding) the Quran before it is revealed to you, an say, 'My Lord, increase my knowledge.'"

Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. These are "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne." In our late book, "Errors in Turkish Translations" (Istanbul, 1992) we have discussed the real meaning of these words and the motivation and reasons for mistranslating them. Here, we will focus on the last word, "Fadribuhunne."

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word

The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb "DaRaBa" having at least ten different meanings. "DaRaBa" has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you do not print money--you "DaRaBa" money, you do not multiply numbers--you "DaRaBa" numbers, you do not cease the work--you "DaRaBa" the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as "tutmak", "calmak", "vurmak" etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to "DaRaBa". These are "strike" and "beat".
Webster's Dictionary gives fourteen meanings to the verb "strike" hit (against); ignite; (of snake) bite; (of plants) (cause to) take root; attack; hook (fish); sound (time) as bell in clock etc.; affect; arrive at, come upon; enter mind of; discover (gold, oil etc.); dismantle, remove; make (coin); cease work as protest or to make demands. The same dictionary gives eight meanings to the verb "beat" strike repeatedly; overcome; surpass; stir vigorously with striking action; flap (wings); make, wear (path); throb; sail against wind.

In the beginning of this article (underlined) I deliberately used "beat" in three different meanings in a single statement just to show the variety of meanings in a single word. In English, when we order someone to "beat it" we mean "get out". Similarly in Arabic, when we order someone with the commend form of "DaRaBa", that is "iDRiB", we mean "get out".

How Can We Find The Appropriate Meaning

When we encounter a multi-meaning word, we select the proper meaning according to the context, forms, and common sense. For instance, if we had have translated "DaRaBa" in 1317 as "beat" instead of "explain", the meaning would be ridiculous
. . . God thus beats the truth and falsehood." (1317)

Another example of mistranslation of "DaRaBa" can be found in the translation of 3844. All the translations (except Dr. Khalifa's translation) inject a male-made story to justify their silly translation. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse about Job

"And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith and break not (the oath)."
Yusuf Ali, in the footnote narrates the traditional story "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant."
However, without injecting this story, we can translate it as the following

"Now, you shall travel the land to fulfill your pledge (that is to deliver the message)." We found him steadfast. What a good servant! He was a submitter. (3844)
Let's turn back to 434
Additionally, the word "Nushuz" which is generally translated as "opposition" has another meaning which can be translated as degrees of disloyalty ranging from flirtation to sexual liaison. If we study 434 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as "flirting or cheating" or "extramarital affair" (Any word or words that reflect the range of disloyalty in marriage). The clue is the phrase before "Nushuz" as reads ". . . and observe God's commandments, even when alone in their privacy." This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life.

Furthermore, the same word "Nushuz" is used in 4128, but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands not wives as was in 434. So, the traditional translation of "Nushuz", that is, "opposition" will not fit here. In vertical relations, "opposition" cannot be a double-edged behavior. So, translators try to avoid this contradiction by ascribing just the opposite meaning of "opposition", i.e., "oppression" in verse 4128. However, the meaning of "Nushuz" as "disloyalty" is appropriate for both cases described in 434 and 4128.

A Coherent Understanding

When we read 434 we should not understand "idribuhunne" as "beat those women". We must remember that this word has many meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with extra-marital-affair. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior husband should start from giving advice. If it does not work and she goes further and commit a proven adultery, that time husband has the right to strike them out (434 & 651).

Let's present our suggestion for the translation of verse 434

"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (434).
Beating women who are cheating is not an ultimate solution; but "striking them out" from your house is the best solution. And it is fair too.

Peace

Fahad1

why not create a seperate thread for the "wife beating" verse ? please let this thread be for "fighting" discussion . or u can search previous threads that discuss "wife beating" so it can be continued there ?

thanks.

oneway

Greetings Arnold,

I'm going to bed now, but I will read your reply in detail later. Thanks for sharing it. Your posts are always very detailed and I do appreciate that.

Here's another perspective on the topic of 434 that goes into considerable detail on the authors' exegesis of that verse

http//answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

Regards,
oneway

Peace ,

Nice try oneway, but that verse is proven to be translated wrong. Daraba means to hit, to depart and so on. That they chosen to hit, out of the 20 different words they could have chosen, tells more about the translators not the Quran. If you follow the verses closely, you see the next verse talks about splitting up or not, and the Quran never endorses sin, so the word, and is also only the logical one, means to leave. The first 2 advises are used to resolve the issue, and then suddenly you can hit the woman?

No. clearly this word means to depart. First you talk, then you leave each other alone, then as a last resort you leave. If you want to talk about violence and discrimination of women, we can also have a nice look about the Bible. But here read this before you say anything

http//www.free-minds.org/women/beating.htm

And
BEATING WOMEN, OR BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, OR....

Edip Yuksel

"Verse 434 of the Quran orders believers to beat their wives; so, Islam is a male dominant religion." Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Personally, every time I read 434, I felt that something was wrong. How does God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It is in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage

"Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (3021)
Obviously, this mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they tried to soften the word "beat" when they translate the verse 434. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parentheses after "beat" to save women

". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (434)
Many tried to "beat" around the bush to "beat" the problem generated by the "beat" of 434.
When I finished the Turkish translation (1991), this verse was on the top of my orange list to study carefully. Whenever I encounter a problem regarding the understanding of a Quranic verse, I remember 20114 and pray accordingly "Most Exalted is God, the only true King. Do not rush into (understanding) the Quran before it is revealed to you, an say, 'My Lord, increase my knowledge.'"

Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. These are "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne." In our late book, "Errors in Turkish Translations" (Istanbul, 1992) we have discussed the real meaning of these words and the motivation and reasons for mistranslating them. Here, we will focus on the last word, "Fadribuhunne."

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word

The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.

To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb "DaRaBa" having at least ten different meanings. "DaRaBa" has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you do not print money--you "DaRaBa" money, you do not multiply numbers--you "DaRaBa" numbers, you do not cease the work--you "DaRaBa" the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as "tutmak", "calmak", "vurmak" etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to "DaRaBa". These are "strike" and "beat".
Webster's Dictionary gives fourteen meanings to the verb "strike" hit (against); ignite; (of snake) bite; (of plants) (cause to) take root; attack; hook (fish); sound (time) as bell in clock etc.; affect; arrive at, come upon; enter mind of; discover (gold, oil etc.); dismantle, remove; make (coin); cease work as protest or to make demands. The same dictionary gives eight meanings to the verb "beat" strike repeatedly; overcome; surpass; stir vigorously with striking action; flap (wings); make, wear (path); throb; sail against wind.

In the beginning of this article (underlined) I deliberately used "beat" in three different meanings in a single statement just to show the variety of meanings in a single word. In English, when we order someone to "beat it" we mean "get out". Similarly in Arabic, when we order someone with the commend form of "DaRaBa", that is "iDRiB", we mean "get out".

How Can We Find The Appropriate Meaning

When we encounter a multi-meaning word, we select the proper meaning according to the context, forms, and common sense. For instance, if we had have translated "DaRaBa" in 1317 as "beat" instead of "explain", the meaning would be ridiculous
. . . God thus beats the truth and falsehood." (1317)

Another example of mistranslation of "DaRaBa" can be found in the translation of 3844. All the translations (except Dr. Khalifa's translation) inject a male-made story to justify their silly translation. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse about Job

"And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith and break not (the oath)."
Yusuf Ali, in the footnote narrates the traditional story "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant."
However, without injecting this story, we can translate it as the following

"Now, you shall travel the land to fulfill your pledge (that is to deliver the message)." We found him steadfast. What a good servant! He was a submitter. (3844)
Let's turn back to 434
Additionally, the word "Nushuz" which is generally translated as "opposition" has another meaning which can be translated as degrees of disloyalty ranging from flirtation to sexual liaison. If we study 434 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as "flirting or cheating" or "extramarital affair" (Any word or words that reflect the range of disloyalty in marriage). The clue is the phrase before "Nushuz" as reads ". . . and observe God's commandments, even when alone in their privacy." This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life.

Furthermore, the same word "Nushuz" is used in 4128, but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands not wives as was in 434. So, the traditional translation of "Nushuz", that is, "opposition" will not fit here. In vertical relations, "opposition" cannot be a double-edged behavior. So, translators try to avoid this contradiction by ascribing just the opposite meaning of "opposition", i.e., "oppression" in verse 4128. However, the meaning of "Nushuz" as "disloyalty" is appropriate for both cases described in 434 and 4128.

A Coherent Understanding

When we read 434 we should not understand "idribuhunne" as "beat those women". We must remember that this word has many meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with extra-marital-affair. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior husband should start from giving advice. If it does not work and she goes further and commit a proven adultery, that time husband has the right to strike them out (434 & 651).

Let's present our suggestion for the translation of verse 434

"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (434).
Beating women who are cheating is not an ultimate solution; but "striking them out" from your house is the best solution. And it is fair too.

Peace

Fahad1

A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

yes it does, when necessary . there is nothing wrong with it .you yourself admitted that sometimes violence is necessary .

oneway

A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

yes it does, when necessary . there is nothing wrong with it .you yourself admitted that sometimes violence is necessary .

Violence, as in war or self defense, is sometimes necessary. Domestic violence, a man beating his wife, is never necessary.

Fahad1

Violence, as in war or self defense, is sometimes necessary. Domestic violence, a man beating his wife, is never necessary.

so u dont have any problem with the 'fighting' verses any more ?

savage_carrot

A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

No, it doesn't get lost. It is only reiterated almost everytime you post. You believe in something as 'violent' as the Bible amongst other things and yet you have the audacity to call the quran 'violent' when you can't even prove it is not in self defence? If you were an atheist, it would have been understandable.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

It endorses 'violence' in the exact same way you do. In self defence. Isn't that a surprise? Why is it an issue in the quran when you don't seem to have any qualms in following what you preach yourself?

So, now the question is whether or not these "Koranic rules of fighting" cover every instance where violence is mentioned in the Quran. I do not believe they do.

Please come up with each and every verse you think is violent, so that we can try to help you with this issue of 'violence' in the quran.

Generally, people often have applied misinterpretation to justify misdeeds. So people certainly are bad in that context. I think the verse above shows that the text is bad as well in this case.

The verse above is mistranslated. Any other verses that you would like to bring regarding 'violence'?

Peace.

arnoldyasin

Sleep well Oneway,

What the people say of the link is just grasping every straw to beat the Quran with it. This is a language issue, not a theological issue. In the arabic several translations can be made with that verse, God commands us to take the best. Some dumn translators took the worst. In the context of the verses, only the understanding of to depart can apply. So this straw is made out of air....

Peace

unknownuser

oneway

Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.

Be equal in your revenge; dont exceed.

They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

And we decreed for them in it that the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.

Be equal in your revenge; dont exceed. Anyone who exceeds is unjust.

They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.

Again, Life is sacred.

You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Can't be the first to fight.

O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

you want it to be unfair and have a verse that says 'when someone tries to kill you do not do anything ! Let him kill you. For it is the only just way.'
and 'when someone tries to kill you, smile back at them and tell them how great they are.'

you want it be illogical ? stupid? you tell me what you'd do when someone tries to kill you, are you going to smile at him?

whats the point of this thread?

another words duh its violent, Quran is a guide; a way of life. A life you won't have if you don't retaliate against someone who tries to kill you !

What do you want the Quran to endorse?

unknownuser

Well, let's see how the Bible endorses violence against women and children

Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

They will fall by the sword
Their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and
Their pregnant women ripped open

That is one hell of violence against women and children, what the chidlren did for them to be killed with the sword?

What the pregnant women did to have their tommies ripped open with a sword?

Those christians are so hypocrites and confused indeed, not to mention their double faces and double standards