Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?
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why do u try to limit everything to ur understanding? -/ does remembering the name of god mean mindlessly repeating it? are u trying to say whoever takes the name of god verbally is doing it mindlessly?
that said i said remembering the name of god and did not say 'how'...that was just ur limited understanding at work...the point still remains the same...those who are called to the house are called so as to remember the name of god...being mindful about it! -)
So how do you remember The God according to the great reading?
the word denotes more than just location...it denotes something like foundation...established....rootedness...firm placing....i suggest u read the quran to understand this for urself! -)
I agree. It is not the physical location that is important but any place where this "foundation" is established.
i guess 'going about' would be better...fair enough...choose going about the house of god...doesnt make a difference...it still remains the house of god...one god....not nafs of an individual! -)
I agree. I never said it was the "nafs of an individual". So do you also agree that the present spinning seven times around the stone cube in Mecca is a completely manmade ritual that has no support in the great reading?
huh?? clearly states for the standing the bowing and the prostrating! and god does not need others to put in brackets to show what it intends to mean....while u were at it why did u leave out standing?
So are the people who are physically "prostrating" but disobeying The God really prostrating?
So are the people who are physically "kneeling" (there is no bowing in the great reading since you cannot fall into bowing as in 3824) but are arrogantly disobeying The God really kneeling?It is "persisting" not "standing". What does standing have to do with anything?
yeah...would apply anywhere...and also to the house....have u forgotten that? who obey 2230-31 are them for whom the hajj has been ordained..so whoso desires to associate with god are not called to do the hajj...its a package...u cannot come to party at the house of god....
Yes it applies anywhere and anytime (not just during "hajj" as you suppose). Of course "anywhere" includes the house.
u come there when u have belief in god....lets not miss the forest for the trees!
There is nothing that says that "hajj" is just for the "mu'minin" (those who have faith/trust).
calling the choice of words of god as haphazard is not a solution....using different titles does not make 2 things different...read the quran to know what i mean! -)
Why are two different "titles" used?
####### it is not what v think but that which is confirmed by quran which counts...2125 is speaking of the house the alqawaida of which was raised by ibrahim and ismail.....so while u are entitled to ur understanding as much as anyone else..as long as it remains deprived of support from quran it will remain just that...a personal understanding without significance! -)
How come "the foundation" suddenly became physical foundation when you said above that it is not a physical location? The same exact word occurs in 1626. Is that a physical foundation there?
The God tells us what the foundation of our "buildings" should be in 9109-110. Are those physical buildings and foundations?
####### god does not set up markets to sell or showcase its religion...it sends its messengers to make truth distinct from falsehood...nowhere does it say that the hajj is to be a fair or a market where 'ideal muslims' will be on display for the rest of the humanity....rather it is the bayt itself to which believers are called...again u need to back up ur claims from the quran rather
than ur understanding as all are entitled to their own understandings but to reach an 'understanding' it has to be based on quran rather than hypothesis!
######## and yes i agree....our understanding should be guided according to god and its message rather than us trying to guide the understanding of god and its message! cool! -)So when Moses worked for 8 "hijaj" was it to work and produce or was it for some religious pilgrimage? See 2827.
If the place where this market takes place is somewhere where people don't setup partners (2226) then this is a model community. People coming from all over the world will see this and be reminded of The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Alaikum, Br. Tanweer
I agree with your interpretation of "masjid" carrying an abstract concept in the heart and mind of a believer. I also appreciate the depth of your perception throughout the rest of your article .. though basically it struck me as quite a 'storm in a tea cup.' Personally I think that the translations you've been following are way off the track,and have thus evidently created a good bit of conflict. I myself, kept getting boggled as I went through them, and had to compare each one with Pickthall's. That's when it made perfect sense to me. In the verses you've quoted, I wonder why the translator keeps using the term "Masjid-al-Haram?" This term has constantly been substituted by either "The Inviolable Place of Worship" or "Allah's monuments" or the "(holy) House," most often "The Inviolable Place of Worship." Besides, it could surely be misleading to paraphrase the Quraanic verses with the help of certain Arabic words that one might have learnt in the process. In many (if not all) languages, a single word is often used in several contexts. Also, a single phrase could carry a variety of ideas, depending on the context of the conversation or lecture. In such situations, unless one isn't thoroughly well versed in the language concerned, there could be immense misconceptions as 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing.' Therefore, to straighten a bewildering maze with the minimal of hassles, just pick a reliable translation and stick to it alone. It could resolve a problem that might not even exist a lot quicker than expected. I would suggest to be focused on Pickthall.
I'd like to express my opinion on the following that were discussed in depth by you
Allah hath fulfilled the vision for His messenger in very truth. Ye shall indeed enter the Inviolable Place of Worship, if Allah will, secure, (having your hair) shaven and cut, not fearing. But He knoweth that which ye know not, and hath given you a near victory beforehand. (4827) Al-Fath
Verse 4827, as I see it, simply refers to pilgrimage, that the Muslims will be able to make pilgrimage without any hindrances in future which would be a startling change from the Medina era when creating obstacles for the Prophet (pbuh) and his followers from reaching the Kaaba was the trump card for the Meccan leaders. The verse is an assurance to comfort the Prophet (pbuh) .. not complicated at all.
Lo! those who are with thy Lord are not too proud to do Him service, but they praise Him and adore Him. (7206) Al-Araf
The above verse 7206 clearly highlights the humility within the heart of a believer and its great importance. Though we strive to be independent of our fellow human beings and often make it our goal, dependency on God alone is a source of pride and solace, a very special quality that's acquired by realizing that arrogance or a challenging attitude is no good while interacting with God. It's a general statement to all humanity and I don't see it as being addressed to the Prophet (pbuh) alone.
Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far Distant Place of Worship the neighborhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer. (171) Al-Israa
The verse (171) very obviously talks about the blessed premises which is apparently a widespread area of spiritual significance, even if the building didn't exist physically.
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (92 At-Towba
Verse 928 suggests, as a general statement from God, that's it's not befitting for the disbelievers to enter the Kaaba or be its caretakers on account of their disbelief, until they're spiritually cleansed (that is, become believers in monotheism). "So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship ..." does not literally mean stopping them with physical force, rather it's only a verbal admonition emphasising the reverence of the Kaaba. Obviously, it goes without saying that it wasn't possible at all to stop the idolaters physically from entering the Kaaba both before and after the conquest of Makkah. Prior to the conquest, the idolaters were in charge of the Kaaba. After the conquest, if any disbeliever was at all determined to enter the Kaaba through deceitful means, that certainly wasn't the responsibility of the believers. Rather, that was a matter between the violator and God.
The mention in the Glorious Qur'aan of the believers being expelled from the Inviolable Place of Worship again most likely does not carry a literal meaning but is a connotation to the hostility of the people of Makkah toward the small band of the Prophet's followers who were indeed prevented from taking charge of the Kaaba.
As we all know, there are many verses in the Glorious Qur'aan that are revealed in the context of specific circumstances. Verse 2191 which you quoted is one such verse. Frankly, I avoid quoting such verses alone by themselves, instead it's really essential to quote the preceding and/or following verse/verses too for a much better understanding of facts.
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors. (2190) Al-Baqrah
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2191) Al-Baqrah
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (2192) Al-Baqrah
The central thought here is to highlight the concept of defensive warfare only, not an offensive one .. to the extent that fighting isn't permitted in places of worship as a norm, except for the purpose of self-defence. And again as always, verse 2191 uses the term "Inviolable Place of Worship."
The Kaaba itself did very much exist physically during the pre-Islamic era, though it wasn't called the 'Kaaba' neither was it called the Haram Sharif or anything similar for the simple reason that it was the citadel of spiritualism for the pagans. It didn't even look much the same as it does today because of the destruction by successive invasions and subsequent renovations that took place periodically for a few centuries after the passing away of the beloved Prophet (pbuh).
Personally I prefer being focused on the actual sense of the contents rather than names.
And only Allah has the final authority to assert the meaning of the Glorious Qur'aan.
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ayman wrote
So how do you remember The God according to the great reading?2200 So if you accomplished/carried out your rituals or methods worship , so mention/remember God as you mention/remember your fathers or stronger remembrance, so from the people who say "Our Lord, give us in the present world." And for him (there is) no share of blessing/fortune in the end (other life).
- Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say) Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire.
how do u 'adhkurullah' from the quran? -)
ayman wrote
I agree. It is not the physical location that is important but any place where this "foundation" is established.I agree. I never said it was the "nafs of an individual". So do you also agree that the present spinning seven times around the stone cube in Mecca is a completely manmade ritual that has no support in the great reading?
the quran says to go about the bayt of god...as for 'spinning seven times around the stone cube in mecca' or spinning 777 times is not discussed in the quran at all...however what it does say is to go about the bayt...and anything extrapolative (7 spins)...contradictory or hidden (meanings) is something which needs to be supported with mention in the quran! -)
ayman wrote
So are the people who are physically "prostrating" but disobeying The God really prostrating?god does mention piety...being upright...so those who are making a mockery of god's commands or being unmindful are doing so only to their own detriment! are u saying it is ungodly to prostrate physically?-)
ayman wrote
So are the people who are physically "kneeling" (there is no bowing in the great reading since you cannot fall into bowing as in 3824)
but disobeying The God really kneeling?yes i too take it as kneeling...but physical...especially from 3824 and 3191....he did fell to his knees and was repentant...and there would be nothing wrong for those who visit the house of god to fall on their knees remembering god....praising it...asking forgivance and guidance...and so on...would it? -)
ayman wrote
It is "persisting" not "standing". What does standing have to do with anything?can u shed some light on "persistent"?
that said standing would have to do more or less the same things that kneeling or prostration would have to do....praise god...seek forgiveness...implore for mercy...be thankful..... -)
ayman wrote
Yes it applies anywhere and anytime (not just during "hajj" as you suppose). Of course "anywhere" includes the house.i do not suppose that...that i suppose is ur supposition! -)
would u be a believer in one god if u associate with god? likewise when god talks about the hajj...about dhikr of god and of being upright unto god and not associating with it would god be addressing believers in god or general?
2 197 The pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that)
there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So
make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.does that mean apart from during the annual fair 1 is allowed that which has been disallowed therein?
ayman wrote
Why are two different "titles" used?did god reveal unto its messenger the quran or the furqan? did allah reveal unto its slave the quran or did arrahman allamalquran? or did 1 anzala and the other allama?
what do u understand by masjidalharam...masharalharam...and baytalharam...i mean 'haram' in what sense?
ayman wrote
How come "the foundation" suddenly became physical foundation when you said above that it is not a physical location?'makan' can be taken in a phsyical as well as an abstract sense...like 'bayt' can be...or can it?
that said when i said 'makan' is being rootedness or firmly placed...i meant as attributes of 'place' rather than just anywhere...but i do think simply 'place' seems to be quite appropriate in the light of the quran! this 'place' can be 'abstract' as in 16101 or more 'physical' as in 2231!
is bayt an abstract term or a spiritual station in 1223?
ayman wrote
The same exact word occurs in 1626. Is that a physical foundation there?yes...it is a complete destruction...a physical destruction of their place such that their alqawaida were razed..and along with the physical destruction also is the destruction of falsehood which they built...uprooted at its very foundation...is that going against the punishments in quran? or do u have something to prove otherwise? -)
ayman wrote
The God tells us what the foundation of our "buildings" should be in 9109-110. Are those physical buildings and foundations?explain the 'masjid' in 9107 as that verse precedes these! -)
ayman wrote
So when Moses worked for 8 "hijaj" was it to work and produce or was it for some religious pilgrimage? See 2827.hajj to the bayt takes a religious significance....in itself it would not...so 2827 may have nothing to do with this! -)
ayman wrote
If the place where this market takes place is somewhere where people don't setup partners (2226) then this is a model community.
People coming from all over the world will see this and be reminded of The God.####### god is not saying in the quran that hajj is where humankind can see a model community...does it?...can u point out the verse which does?...and would it not be that this market of model community should be working 24/7 rather than an annual affair...so that humanity can see it at all times? or is that muslims have to play a model community during this annual fair? but the hajj to bayt is for those who believe in god and who stand...kneel and
prostrate unto it! -)######## peace -)
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Just a thought!
The god said
2 197 the pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that)
there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So
make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.?There is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation-------------------. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So
make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.?Doesn?t this apply to normal business dealings ? everyday? As one goes about trading.
Salaams.
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?There is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation-------------------. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.?
Doesn?t this apply to normal business dealings ? everyday? As one goes about trading.
Yes it would.
Peace,
Ayman
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2200 So if you accomplished/carried out your rituals or methods worship , so mention/remember God as you mention/remember your fathers or stronger remembrance, so from the people who say "Our Lord, give us in the present world." And for him (there is) no share of blessing/fortune in the end (other life).
- Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say) Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire.
how do u 'adhkurullah' from the quran? -)
Thank you for the enlightening passages.
As you quoted, we are to remember The God as we remember our fathers or stronger remembrance. Do you remember your father by repeating "labayka father amma labayka" a thousand times while spinning around a stone? Of course not. You remember the many valuable lessons that he taught you. You remember him by respecting and obeying him (except if he told you to setup partners with The God). You remember him by thanking him for raising you as a child and sheltering you and giving you good things. You remember him by being grateful and a good son. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat "labayka father amma labayka" if you are ungrateful and a bad son who didn't learn anything good from his parents' experience. It is just mindless repitition.
We remember The God by studying his creation of the heavens and the earth, and realizing that our Lord did not create all this in vain. When we remember The God by studying his signs and are amazed, we naturally say "subhan Allah" (The God is exalted).
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
the quran says to go about the bayt of god...as for 'spinning seven times around the stone cube in mecca' or spinning 777 times is not discussed in the quran at all...however what it does say is to go about the bayt...and anything extrapolative (7 spins)...contradictory or hidden (meanings) is something which needs to be supported with mention in the quran! -)
I agree. The 7 spins are not supported by the great reading. They are only supported by ancient pagan birthing celebrations. Some of those traditions continue to this day. For example, as part of the ancient Subu3 birth celebrations, people go seven times around the house. Pagans spinned seven times around the Jinn block (the stone cube) of Allat in celebration of the re-birth of the fertility goddess on the winter solstice. The Black Stone is set in a female vulva shaped enclosure in the Southeast corner of Allat's Jinn block (which is covered in a black dress) precisely facing the winter sunrise. The pilgrims wear wraps like those that newborns are wrapped in. They run between two hills as symbolism for searching for water for a newborn. They kiss the crown of the head of the newborn baby idol as it is coming out of the vulve so that their sins are forgiven (kissing the head for forgiveness is an ancient Arab tradition) and by doing so they themselves return sinless as if they are newborn.
god does mention piety...being upright...so those who are making a mockery of god's commands or being unmindful are doing so only to their own detriment! are u saying it is ungodly to prostrate physically?-)
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the primary meaning is "obedience". One can prostrate physically however many times he wants but that is not real "sujud" if he disobeys The God. It is obedience to The God that makes it real "sujud". Now you can prostrate physically and there is nothing wrong with that but obeying The God comes first. Hence, if you understand it physically, you should obey The God and do it to the chin and NOT the forehead (17107).
yes i too take it as kneeling...but physical...especially from 3824 and 3191....he did fell to his knees and was repentant...and there would be nothing wrong for those who visit the house of god to fall on their knees remembering god....praising it...asking forgivance and guidance...and so on...would it? -)
No, there is nothing wrong with that. But if they kneel while they are arrogant then it is not real kneeling. It is just a show off.
7746-48. Eat and enjoy a little, you are criminals. Woe to the rejecters. And if it was said to them "irka'u", "la yarka'un".
3734-35. We do like this to the criminals. If it was said to them there is no god except The God, "yastakbirun" (they become arrogant).
According to 7746-48 The criminals do not kneel. So do you think that there are no criminals amongst the multitude of sectarians, Trinitarians, Hindus, etc. who are physically kneeling everyday or is 7746-48 exaggerating? Of course not, real kneeling is primarily not being arrogant (i.e., being humble), physical kneeling is a secondary meaning.
can u shed some light on "persistent"?
that said standing would have to do more or less the same things that kneeling or prostration would have to do....praise god...seek forgiveness...implore for mercy...be thankful..... -)
If you look at how you remember The God above (by studying His signs), then you will see how everything fits together. Like any learning activity, you must persist when studying. If you give up when you encounter something difficult then you will not succeed. Similarly, you must be humble because if you think that you already have all the answers based on preconceptions then you will not succeed. Finally, once you learn something from The God then you must obey The God based on what you learned. All this is natural. This is the real "maqam"/status/position of Abraham. He persisted and was humble until he reached the truth. Once he did that, he was able to correctly obey The God. The "maqam Ibrahim" is not some idol in the form of a footprint as they have now in Mecca.
would u be a believer in one god if u associate with god?
Yes. See 12106.
likewise when god talks about the hajj...about dhikr of god and of being upright unto god and not associating with it would god be addressing believers in god or general?
In general.
2 197 The pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that) there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.
does that mean apart from during the annual fair 1 is allowed that which has been disallowed therein?
Argument ("jidal" can happen outside the "hajj" forum. The word "rafath" means sexual contact and it is of course allowed with our wives. On the other hand, one should not argue in that forum and of course sex shouldn't be a part of that annual market or any market for that matter.
did god reveal unto its messenger the quran or the furqan? did allah reveal unto its slave the quran or did arrahman allamalquran? or did 1 anzala and the other allama?
The God teaches the great reading and He reveals (bayan) it through the messenger and those who were given the book (3187). Currently, those who were given this book are those who know the language of this book (Arabic).
The word "furqan" like "quran" is an intensified common noun of the form "fu3lan". So like the word "quran", which literally means "intense reading", the word "furqan" means "intense differentiation". It is simply an attribute of this book (like "huda"/guidance).
what do u understand by masjidalharam...masharalharam...and baytalharam...i mean 'haram' in what sense?
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.
The word "sha3r" has a meaning of "awareness". So "al-mash3ar al-haram" means the institute of awareness of the restriction. This is how those who visit the house are made aware of what The God restricted on us.
The term "al-bayt al-haram" means the house of the restriction. It is the place where people can assemble in safety to witness benefits and remember The God. As clear from the great reading, the house's location is defined as follows
- First and foremost it is anywhere the people who administer it do not setup any partners with The God (2226).
- In this location, the people who administer it invite ALL PEOPLE to the "hajj" (2227), not just people from a certain religion.
- They purify it from all forms of idolatry (2226).
- The house is not just a place of assembly but it is a SAFE place of assembly (2125).
The house in the location presently called Mecca doesn't satisfy any of the above requirements.
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The people who administer it take their clergy as partners with The God that decree in their "din" (obligation) what The God has not authorized. They take as a partner with The God idols in the form of a stone cube and a so-called Black Stone that they revere and adore. They take as partner with The God the dead prophet who they believe will put them in heaven by interceding on their behalf.
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The people who administer it do not invite ALL PEOPLE to it but only so-called Muslims.
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The house is not purified and it has many forms of idolatry and associated pagan rituals. The idols include the stone cube and the Black Stone (and even a footprint idol). The pagan rituals include spinning seven times around the cube and kissing and fondling the Black Stone. Other pagan rituals that are also related as we saw to pagan newborn idol birthing celebrations include running between two hills to look for water for a newborn. All this while being dressed in newborn-style wraps.
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The house is certainly not a safe place. Any monotheist (even Ibrahim himself) who tries to purify the house by destroying those revered stones or even simply telling people not to revere stones would certainly be torn to pieces by the angry mob of pagans who love to revere such stones. You would probably suffer the same exact fate if you stand in the middle of a Hindu temple and tell the "pious" mob not to revere stone idols. Is this the attitude of monotheists or pagans? If you and I go there and proclaim the obvious fact that the Saudi monarchy is corrupt we would probably be arrested, tortured or worse. Does this sound like a safe place to you?
For most intents and purposes, according to the above four criteria from the great reading, this forum is a more fitting house than the one in Mecca.
'makan' can be taken in a phsyical as well as an abstract sense...like 'bayt' can be...or can it?
that said when i said 'makan' is being rootedness or firmly placed...i meant as attributes of 'place' rather than just anywhere...but i do think simply 'place' seems to be quite appropriate in the light of the quran! this 'place' can be 'abstract' as in 16101 or more 'physical' as in 2231!
is bayt an abstract term or a spiritual station in 1223?I never said that "bayt" is not physical or "makan" is not a physical place. It is just that "makan al-bayt" is not a particular physical place. It is ANY place where the above four criteria are met.
yes...it is a complete destruction...a physical destruction of their place such that their alqawaida were razed..and along with the physical destruction also is the destruction of falsehood which they built...uprooted at its very foundation...is that going against the punishments in quran? or do u have something to prove otherwise? -)
Do you build a building using "makr" (scheming) or brick and mortar? You can see their empty physical building (2752) so the physical building can be intact. So those "qwa3id" are not physical but are "taqwa" (forethought) as per 9109-110.
explain the 'masjid' in 9107 as that verse precedes these! -)
Thank you for your intelligent observation. 9107 is indeed related to those passages and help clarify them. In fact, the word "masjid" in 9107 cannot be understood as a physical building. This is for the simple reason that the walls and ceiling of a physical building cannot harm (dirar) anyone and certainly cannot separate between those who have faith or anticipate those who fight against The God and His messenger. So this confirms the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of obedience, i.e. an institution of authority (like government).
There is nothing amazing about what I am saying and the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of authority and not a physical building is regularly used to this day. For example, we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar" issuing a "fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the physical building (the floors, walls and ceilings) is capable of issuing an opinion of any kind but it is the institution that does.
ayman wrote
So when Moses worked for 8 "hijaj" was it to work and produce or was it for some religious pilgrimage? See 2827.hajj to the bayt takes a religious significance....in itself it would not...so 2827 may have nothing to do with this! -)
I think 2827 has a lot to do with this. The term "hajj" is never used in the great reading to refer to other than the one to the "bayt". So why exclude 2827? In fact, Madyan is much more likely to be the location of the first house than the location that was renamed to Mecca long after the great reading was sent.
####### god is not saying in the quran that hajj is where humankind can see a model community...does it?...can u point out the verse which does?
Any community who doesn't setup partners with The God (2226) is automatically a model community, don't you think?
The religion of Abraham is that he submitted to his Lord and he advised his progeny with the same (2131-132). He settled them at the house (1437) and thus became a community of those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him.
...and would it not be that this market of model community should be working 24/7 rather than an annual affair...so that humanity can see it at all times? or is that muslims have to play a model community during this annual fair? but the hajj to bayt is for those who believe in god and who stand...kneel and prostrate unto it! -)
Yes, the community is 24/7 and those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him do that all the time. On the other hand, the "hajj" is not. You can only have an annual market, well? annually! The location of the "hajj" is that community but the timing is annual. For more on the timing, please see http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all,
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
Perhaps the pure inimitable Arabic language guru and a hafiz-e-quraan of all times, witnessed here on this forum with many so-called "slam dunks", can defeat the above statement. I'd like to see how he manipulates, sucks out words and verses from the Quran to play around alongwith the neocons and roughriders that support him.
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Peace Danish,
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
Perhaps the pure inimitable Arabic language guru and a hafiz-e-quraan of all times, witnessed here on this forum with many so-called "slam dunks", can defeat the above statement. I'd like to see how he manipulates, sucks out words and verses from the Quran to play around alongwith the neocons and roughriders that support him.There is no defeat or winning in a statement. It is only those who are "barely removed" (َ from the fire who will win (3185). Many of the people who participate in this circus of idolatry are from our families and forefathers and even some of us. Perhaps a few years ago we would have happily done it too. Remember that many of us were like them. There is no savior other than The God. We should cry and not laugh. We shouldn't get distracted by the arrogance of worldly "winning". We should only focus on obeying and serving The God, The Truth.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Peace Danish,
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
Perhaps the pure inimitable Arabic language guru and a hafiz-e-quraan of all times, witnessed here on this forum with many so-called "slam dunks", can defeat the above statement. I'd like to see how he manipulates, sucks out words and verses from the Quran to play around alongwith the neocons and roughriders that support him.There is no defeat or winning in a statement. It is only those who are "barely removed" (َ from the fire who will win (3185). Many of the people who participate in this circus of idolatry are from our families and forefathers and even some of us. Perhaps a few years ago we would have happily done it too. Remember that many of us were like them. There is no savior other than The God. We should cry and not laugh. We shouldn't get distracted by the arrogance of worldly "winning". We should only focus on obeying and serving The God, The Truth.
Peace,
Ayman
Though totally agreed for what you said above, but my post was referenced to Mr. Baghawat and his comrades in order to declare its credance, to enlighten and put it in prespectives via al-quran, since he boasts about his nativity, precedence and supreme authority in both language and wisdom and grandiose slam dunks. My apologies for not clarifying and presumed understood.
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Perhaps the pure inimitable Arabic language guru
sounds like me
and a hafiz-e-quraan of all times,
does not sound like me
witnessed here on this forum with many so-called "slam dunks",
sounds like me
wow 2 out of 3 clues sound like me, i take it then that it is me, let me see what you have to say mister danish
can defeat the above statement.
of course I can using the Quran, but I decided not and ignore this subject of masjid Al haram for now, but I'm sure you will see me back on it in the near future
is there any obligations that i'm not aware of?
I'd like to see how he manipulates,
does not sound like me but sounds like many here
sucks out words and verses from the Quran to play around alongwith the neocons and roughriders that support him.
does nopt sound like me either
far out man it seems you were not talking about me, sorry
Salam Dunk
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ayman wrote
Thank you for the enlightening passages.netime -)
ayman wrote
As you quoted, we are to remember The God as we remember our fathers or stronger remembrance. Do you remember your father by repeating "labayka father amma labayka" a thousand times while spinning around a stone? Of course not. You remember the many valuable lessons that he taught you. You remember him by respecting and obeying him (except if he told you to setup partners with The God). You remember him by thanking him for raising you as a child and sheltering you and giving you good things. You remember him by being grateful and a good son. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat "labayka father amma labayka" if you are ungrateful and a bad son who didn't learn anything good from his parents' experience. It is just mindless repitition.its amusing that despite my pointing out to u that dhikr is 'spinning around a stone cube 7 times repeating something mindlessly' is something which u have assumed on my behalf...u not only 'persist' in it but also elaborate on it.....lets say ur 'standing' has started off on the wrong note so would be interesting to see what u end up prostrating to! -)
ayman wrote
We remember The God by studying his creation of the heavens and the earth, and realizing that our Lord did not create all this in vain.
When we remember The God by studying his signs and are amazed, we naturally say "subhan Allah" (The God is exalted).i agree...and it is not resitrcited to 'subhanallah'...it can be 'alhamdulillah'...or 'la ilaha illa anta'...and so on...cool? -)
ayman wrote
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is ememberance of The God.nor did i see...infact i posted for u the verses to show dhikr from quran...so why are u so obsessed with that which neither of us have anything to do with? -/
ayman wrote
I agree. The 7 spins are not supported by the great reading. They are only supported by ancient pagan birthing celebrations. Some of those traditions continue to this day. For example, as part of the ancient Subu3 birth celebrations, people go seven times around the house. Pagans spinned seven times around the Jinn block (the stone cube) of Allat in celebration of the re-birth of the fertility goddess on the winter solstice. The Black Stone is set in a female vulva shaped enclosure in the Southeast corner of Allat's Jinn block (which is covered in a black dress) precisely facing the winter sunrise. The pilgrims wear wraps like those that newborns are wrapped in. They run between two hills as symbolism for searching for water for a newborn. They kiss the crown of the head of the newborn baby idol as it is coming out of the vulve so that their sins are forgiven (kissing the head for forgiveness is an ancient Arab tradition) and by doing so they themselves return sinless as if they are newborn.if u wanna add to ur text...cool...v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...lets not get into that which has no basis in quran! -)
that said...does the quran tell u about those pagan customs or did u witness it for urself? i dont see all that in quran so i dont see why at the moment u want to meddle in affairs which dont concern us here...and just to remind u...v want to see things in light of quran...without interference from shia or sunni sources...or from any source other than quran....nor fairy tales! -)
ayman wrote
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the primary meaning is "obedience". One can prostrate physically however many times hewants but that is not real "sujud" if he disobeys The God. It is obedience to The God that makes it real "sujud". Now you can prostrate physically and there is nothing wrong with that but obeying The God comes first. Hence, if you understand it physically, you should obey The God and do it to the chin and NOT the forehead (17107).
yes...why do u lose urself in ur assumptions?? have i said its to be done on the forehead? that said even when done physcially the prostrating should be in spirit...but u do agree with physical prostration...cool -)
ayman wrote
No, there is nothing wrong with that. But if they kneel while they are arrogant then it is not real kneeling. It is just a show off.agreed!
ayman wrote
7746-48. Eat and enjoy a little, you are criminals. Woe to the rejecters. And if it was said to them "irka'u", "la yarka'un".3734-35. We do like this to the criminals. If it was said to them there is no god except The God, "yastakbirun" (they become arrogant).
According to 7746-48 The criminals do not kneel. So do you think that there are no criminals amongst the multitude of sectarians,
Trinitarians, Hindus, etc. who are physically kneeling everyday or is 7746-48 exaggerating? Of course not, real kneeling is primarily not being arrogant (i.e., being humble), physical kneeling is a secondary meaning.
do u not see what the quran says about those who take up idols or intercessors as associates with god? or do u say that those who
associate with god kneel to god alone? also..even when kneeling physically the mind should be away from all thoughts otherwise it is devoid of the essence...here is 37363736 And they say "Are we to leave our gods to a mad/insane poet?"
that said what do they become arrogant to? to the message that there is only one god...so they are those who take up other 'gods' or take 'co-gods'! -)
ayman wrote
If you look at how you remember The God above (by studying His signs), then you will see how everything fits together. Like any learning activity, you must persist when studying. If you give up when you encounter something difficult then you will not succeed. Similarly, you must be humble because if you think that you already have all the answers based on preconceptions then you will not succeed. Finally, once you learn something from The God then you must obey The God based on what you learned. All this is natural. This is the real "maqam"/status/position of Abraham. He persisted and was humble until he reached the truth. Once he did that, he was able to correctly obey The God. The "maqam Ibrahim" is not some idol in the form of a footprint as they have now in Mecca.u seem to have this bias of trying to do away with 'physical' gestures by trying to lose urself in ur words...however since the quran talks about physical worship like solomon falling to his knees....the magicians of pharaoh prostrating on their chins....zechariah standing in salat...quran over-rides ur opinions! -)
ayman wrote
Yes. See 12106.no..see 12107-108
ayman wrote
In general.the above verses renders ur general view a bit weak..so explain how god is addressing those who do not believe in god telling them about the hajj to the house of god! -)
ayman wrote
Argument ("jidal" can happen outside the "hajj" forum. The word "rafath" means sexual contact and it is of course allowed with our wives. On the other hand, one should not argue in that forum and of course sex shouldn't be a part of that annual market or any market for that matter.####### what kind of argument is not allowed in that forum? v will get back to the sexual contact stuff as well! -)
ayman wrote
The God teaches the great reading and He reveals (bayan) it through the messenger and those who were given the book (3187). Currently, those who were given this book are those who know the language of this book (Arabic). The word "furqan" like "quran" is an intensified common noun of the form "fu3lan". So like the word "quran", which literally means "intense reading", the word "furqan" means "intense differentiation". It is simply an attribute of this book (like "huda"/guidance).####### so masjid cannot be an attribute of the bayt? is that what u are saying? v were talking about different titles...and different titles are used...is baytalharam something other than baytalatiq?
ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.are u saying muhammad was debarred from being in the station of spiritual obedience to god by his persecuters? can u give references from quran? -)
further...as v saw...according to ur interpretation masjidalharam like baytalharam was a place equally for humankind..who believe in one god and who associate...yet according to ur understanding god later disallowed who asscoiate from masjidalharam...can u shed some light on that from the quran? -)
ayman wrote
The word "sha3r" has a meaning of "awareness". So "al-mash3ar al-haram" means the institute of awareness of the restriction. This is how those who visit the house are made aware of what The God restricted on us.can u translate 2197-199 according to ur understanding if u do not mind! -)
ayman wrote
The term "al-bayt al-haram" means the house of the restriction. It is the place where people can assemble in safety to witness benefits and remember The God.what restriction? i mean are the restrictrions same as that of masjidalharam and baytalharam or different? v have seen above that
according to 12106-108 those who associate with god are not at all believers in god...while 2230-31 clearly speaks about those who believe in god! -)
ayman wrote
For most intents and purposes, according to the above four criteria from the great reading, this forum is a more fitting house than the one in Mecca.######## for the present v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...whether they are same or distinct...so let us keep it at that if u aint mind! -)
ayman wrote
I never said that "bayt" is not physical or "makan" is not a physical place. It is just that "makan al-bayt" is not a particular physical place. It is ANY place where the above four criteria are met.######### so u do agree that makan albayt the alqawaida of which abraham raised can be a physical place...or can u deny it with certainty from the quran? -)
ayman wrote
Do you build a building using "makr" (scheming) or brick and mortar? You can see their empty physical building (2752) so the physical building can be intact. So those "qwa3id" are not physical but are "taqwa" (forethought) as per 9109-110.where do u find in 2752 that the bunyana the alqawaida of which god came upon and caused the falling of its roof from above was built using 'scheming'? it simply says indeed schemed alladhi before them...so god came upon the buniyana the alqawaida...! can u show how u got ur understanding? -)
ayman wrote
Thank you for your intelligent observation. 9107 is indeed related to those passages and help clarify them.########## netime!
ayman wrote
In fact, the word "masjid" in 9107 cannot be understood as a physical building.ahan!
ayman wrote
This is for the simple reason that the walls and ceiling of a physical building cannot harm (dirar) anyone and certainly cannot separate between those who have faith or anticipate those who fight against The God and His messenger. So this confirms the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of obedience, i.e. an institution of authority (like government).########### who talked about the physical walls and buildings causing harm? those who take such masjid are those who can cause harm...spread disbelief....is that too hard to imagine? so i guess that confirms nothing! -)
ayman wrote
There is nothing amazing about what I am saying and the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of authority and not a physical building is regularly used to this day. For example, we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar" issuing a "fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the physical building (the floors, walls and ceilings) is capable of issuing an opinion of any kind but it is the institution that does.huh?? so now u are trying to lend crendibility to abstract masjids by using the name of a mosque built by sunnis? hmmm...well..okay!
anyway...masjid alazhar is the name of a physical msoque..when u hear it issued a fatwa it is quite obvious that the bench or whatever they have issued the fatwa..so it does not lend credibility to ur claims...its just language...does the walls ceiling and floor of a court give the verdict or the judge? -)
ayman wrote
I think 2827 has a lot to do with this. The term "hajj" is never used in the great reading to refer to other than the one to the "bayt". So why exclude 2827? In fact, Madyan is much more likely to be the location of the first house than the location that was renamed to Mecca long after the great reading was sent.############# are u trying to say the word hajj has its root in hajj to bayt and every application should be restricted to it? even if it refers to the bayt it would still not have an impact our discussion...whether the first house be in mecca or midian or madagascar...v intend to determine whether baytalharam and masjidalharam are distinct! -)
ayman wrote
Any community who doesn't setup partners with The God (2226) is automatically a model community, don't you think?############## no....playing out a muslim in letter and spirit is needed to be a role model! -)
ayman wrote
The religion of Abraham is that he submitted to his Lord and he advised his progeny with the same (2131-132). He settled them at the house (1437) and thus became a community of those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him.most people are not firm on the true path or sometimes the newer generation loses the old values! -)
ayman wrote
Yes, the community is 24/7 and those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him do that all the time. On the other hand, the "hajj" is not. You can only have an annual market, well annually! The location of the "hajj" is that community but the timing is annual. For more on the timing, please see http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htmlolz...when u have to play a model community 24/7 i dont see the significance of an annual fair! -) u are perhaps suggesting ghettoisation and to annually invite humanity to see the exhibition of ideal muslims.....do shed some light on how that works out! -)
that said i do not believe that simply 'not setting up with god' makes an ideal community....like i said...letter and spirit!
############### peace -)
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Salaams Br.
the god wrote."# yes...why just business dealings and tradings...would it not be a continuous application?"
?business dealings and tradings? ? obviousely this was the prime thing taking men away from their families ? and that is the time and place one may be away from the wife/s,So certainly sexual gratification wasn?t/isn?t satisfied.
Like great Marco Polo , and others like him away from home???
Or traveling with your flock of sheep to sell or exchange for things to a gathering and/or a trading centre .
God Bless.
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its amusing that despite my pointing out to u that dhikr is 'spinning around a stone cube 7 times repeating something mindlessly' is something which u have assumed on my behalf...u not only 'persist' in it but also elaborate on it.....lets say ur 'standing' has started off on the wrong note so would be interesting to see what u end up prostrating to! -)
Hmm... as far as I remember, you were promoting spinning around a stone earlier and only when shown the appropriate clear indisputable passages from the great reading did you change your mind and said that it wasn't really spinning and it was "going about". Similarly, you objected when I said that mindlessly repeating "labayka Allahuma labayk" thousands of times is not "thikr" (rememberance) of The God. So I asked you for the passages that tell us what "thikr" is and NONE of the passages that you brought indicated that repeating "labayka Allahuma labayk" thousands of times is "thikr". So in both cases, your objection was unfounded based on the great reading. So what are you objecting based on, if not based on the great reading? You are objecting because you were taught by Sunnis and Shias that "tawaf" means spinning around a stone and "thikr" means repeating "labayka Allahuma labayk" thousands of times. You were not objecting because what I said went against the great reading.
ayman wrote
We remember The God by studying his creation of the heavens and the earth, and realizing that our Lord did not create all this in vain.
When we remember The God by studying his signs and are amazed, we naturally say "subhan Allah" (The God is exalted).i agree...and it is not resitrcited to 'subhanallah'...it can be 'alhamdulillah'...or 'la ilaha illa anta'...and so on...cool? -)
Based on your comment above, I don't think that you really agree or you really pondered on what I said. It is not just mindlessly repeating 'subhanallah', 'alhamdulillah' or 'la ilaha illa anta'. Rememberance/"thikr" is a process that requires one to first study and think about The God's signs and realizing that those signs were created for a purpose and then becoming amazed and exalting The God. Going through the process everyday and saying "subhan Allah" once is far better than ritualistically and mechanically saying it thosuands of times without going through the rememberance process.
nor did i see...infact i posted for u the verses to show dhikr from quran...so why are u so obsessed with that which neither of us have anything to do with? -/
You were earlier defending the spinning around the stone and the endless mechanical repitition of certain words. So tell us what do you propose we should do at "hajj" and what purpose is accomplished?
if u wanna add to ur text...cool...v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...lets not get into that which has no basis in quran! -)
that said...does the quran tell u about those pagan customs or did u witness it for urself?I witnessed them for myself. You would witness them too if you see what goes on in Mecca.
i dont see all that in quran so i dont see why at the moment u want to meddle in affairs which dont concern us here...and just to remind u...v want to see things in light of quran...without interference from shia or sunni sources...or from any source other than quran....nor fairy tales! -)
The great reading tells us that the pagans were idolising Allat, Aluzza and Manat (5319-2. It tells us that people thought those were controllers ("malaika". We are told in 3440-41 that those idols were not in fact "malaika" but were "jinn".
If you knew anything about Sunni and Shia sources then you would have known that I didn't get anything from those sources. As for sources other than the great reading, I think that you need to realize that the great reading itself encourages us to look at the "athar" (physical evidence) of those who came before us (for example 309). In the great reading we are asked to verify everything empirically (1736). Unlike physical archeological evidence, Sunni and Shia sources are unverifiable hearsay. All the verifiable physical evidence that I have seen contradicts those unverifiable hearsay sources.
At any rate, you were defending the rituals in Mecca (the spinning and the mechanical repeating) but then you were shown that they had no basis in the great reading. You still haven't told us where the present rituals in Mecca came from so I gave the origin of those rituals based on empirical obesrvation (you can see for yourself that people spin seven times around the house during Subu3 birthing celebrations and that the cube is dressed in a black dress and the Black Stone is in a female vulva-shaped enclosure) and physical archeological evidence (you can see for yourself cubes similar to the one in Mecca in places like Petra and you can see Black Stones similar to the broken one in Mecca that are symbols of fertility goddesses).
yes...why do u lose urself in ur assumptions?? have i said its to be done on the forehead? that said even when done physcially the prostrating should be in spirit...but u do agree with physical prostration...cool -)
So do you agree that the primary meaning is "obedience" (the spirit of prostration) and physical prostration is completely irrelevant if the first is not there?
ayman wrote
No, there is nothing wrong with that. But if they kneel while they are arrogant then it is not real kneeling. It is just a show off.agreed!
Good.
do u not see what the quran says about those who take up idols or intercessors as associates with god? or do u say that those who associate with god kneel to god alone? also..even when kneeling physically the mind should be away from all thoughts otherwise it is devoid of the essence...here is 3736
3736 And they say "Are we to leave our gods to a mad/insane poet?"
that said what do they become arrogant to? to the message that there is only one god...so they are those who take up other 'gods' or take 'co-gods'! -)I agree and I am not sure what you are arguing about. You agreed earlier that the primary meaning is being humble because "physical kneeling" without being humble is just "showing off" and NOT REAL KNEELING. I guess maybe you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.
u seem to have this bias of trying to do away with 'physical' gestures by trying to lose urself in ur words...however since the quran talks about physical worship like solomon falling to his knees....the magicians of pharaoh prostrating on their chins....zechariah standing in salat...quran over-rides ur opinions! -)
The great reading also talks about rejecters being deaf and blind. Does it mean physically deaf and blind? Of course not! Everything that I said is based on the great reading. Your insistence on focusing on mechanical physical gestures shows that you only read the great reading very superficially and haven't grasped the message.
no..see 12107-108
I did and there is nothing there that negates the statement in 12106. Specifically, the majority of those who have faith do not do so except while they are setting up partners with The God. Sectarians have faith in The God but they setup the prophet, their saints, their clergy, a stone cube, the Black Stone, etc. as partners with The God.
the above verses renders ur general view a bit weak..so explain how god is addressing those who do not believe in god telling them about the hajj to the house of god! -)
You are just complicating things for yourself. The God's message is clear. His command to Ibrajim is to invite people with the "hajj". It is a clear command. Ibrahim didn't turn around and say "I am going to go into the heart of each person and only invite those who I see that in their heart they believe in The God." It is impossible. We are to follow the example of Ibrahim and obey The God's clear command and not let our biases and preconceptions prevent people from coming to the real "hajj".
####### what kind of argument is not allowed in that forum? v will get back to the sexual contact stuff as well! -)
I know you have nothing to get back with me on the sexual contact ("rafath". The same exact word is used in 2187 to indicate contact with our wives. So I know that what I am saying is supported by the great reading.
####### so masjid cannot be an attribute of the bayt? is that what u are saying? v were talking about different titles...and different titles are used...is baytalharam something other than baytalatiq?
If you don't know the basic difference between an attribute (a common noun/adjective) and a title (a proper name) then it is no wonder that you are confused. Titles are meaningless labels. Hence, your screen name "thegod" is a meaningless title that you took since you are not really "the god". On the other hand, attributes have meaning. The terms "albayt alharam" (the restriction house) and "albayt alatiq" (the freeing house) are common nouns not proper names. So they have meaning and should be translated.
ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.are u saying muhammad was debarred from being in the station of spiritual obedience to god by his persecuters? can u give references from quran? -)
Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.
further...as v saw...according to ur interpretation masjidalharam like baytalharam was a place equally for humankind..who believe in one god and who associate...yet according to ur understanding god later disallowed who asscoiate from masjidalharam...can u shed some light on that from the quran? -)
You can think of "masjid" as an institution of authority like government. With this in mind and as we saw above, "al-masjid al-haram" is the institution that implements obedience of what The God restricted on us (see 6151-153). So what we are told is to not allow those who setup partners to be near this institution. In the great reading the word "near" is not merely physical nearness but signifies a position of influence, close relation and favor. In other words, those who setup partners should not have influence and be closely involved in the management of the institution of obeying the restriction. Of course this makes perfect sense because those who setup partners violate the charter of that institution given in 6151-153.
can u translate 2197-199 according to ur understanding if u do not mind! -)
2197-199
The annual market is in known full-moons. So whoever decrees in them the annual market, there is no sexual activities, no wickedness, and no quarrelling in the market. And what you do from good The God knows and take provisions, for the best provision is forethought, and be forethoughtful of me O you who possess intelligence.
There is no blame on you for seeking favors from your Lord, so when you get involved in meetings, remember The God at the institute of awareness of the restriction. And remember Him like He guided you and indeed you were before that from those who went astray.
Then get involved where people get involved and ask The God for forgiveness, indeed The God is forgiving, merciful.what restriction? i mean are the restrictrions same as that of masjidalharam and baytalharam or different? v have seen above that
The restriction that is given in 6151-153 and other passages.
according to 12106-108 those who associate with god are not at all believers in god...while 2230-31 clearly speaks about those who believe in god! -)
12106-108 do not say as you claim that "those who associate with god are not at all believers in god". Clearly, 12106-108 say that the majority of those who believe in The God are "mushrikin" (associate partners with Him). Of course, this is logical. They have to believe in The God first in order to setup partners with Him. Otherwise, who are they setting up partners with?
######## for the present v are discussing baytalharam and masjidalharam...whether they are same or distinct...so let us keep it at that if u aint mind! -)
This is ironic because you haven't said anything about where you think your physical building of "baytalharam and masjidalharam" is. So instead of criticizing without telling us anything useful, please tell us where you think your physical buildings are according to the "quran".
######### so u do agree that makan albayt the alqawaida of which abraham raised can be a physical place...or can u deny it with certainty from the quran? -)
It is certain that "alqawaid" (the foundations) are not physical and "bayt" is ANY place that satisfies the requirements. How can you "raise" the foundations FROM the house?
I think that the foundations and house are not those of a particular ancient physical building. If they are, then really there is nothing more for you talk about because this building and its walls and foundation has been destroyed long ago and it is certainly no longer here. This is indisputable.
where do u find in 2752 that the bunyana the alqawaida of which god came upon and caused the falling of its roof from above was built using 'scheming'? it simply says indeed schemed alladhi before them...so god came upon the buniyana the alqawaida...! can u show how u got ur understanding? -)
It says "those before them have schemed" everything afterwards is a result of their scheming. You are cutting the sentence short in 1626.
- Those before them have schemed, but The God came to their buildings from the foundations, thus the roof fell on top of them, and the retribution came to them from where they did not know.
########### who talked about the physical walls and buildings causing harm? those who take such masjid are those who can cause harm...spread disbelief....is that too hard to imagine? so i guess that confirms nothing! -)
No it says that they used "al-masjid" to "cause harm, spread disbelief, etc." A physical building is nothing more than floors, walls and ceilings. How can you use the floors, walls and ceilings of a physical building to do this?
huh?? so now u are trying to lend crendibility to abstract masjids by using the name of a mosque built by sunnis? hmmm...well..okay!
This has nothing to do with Sunnis. Such usages are common in all languages. It is an eloquent way to talk that assumes that both the listener and the talker are not superficial and merely concerned with the physical aspects but are concerned with communicating ideas.
anyway...masjid alazhar is the name of a physical msoque..when u hear it issued a fatwa it is quite obvious that the bench or whatever they have issued the fatwa..so it does not lend credibility to ur claims...its just language...does the walls ceiling and floor of a court give the verdict or the judge? -)
Using your superficial logic, the bench would be a physical wooden bench and the physical court building would be the one giving verdicts. But we know that this is not what you meant because you are an intelligent person who is able to use language and examples eloquently and not superficially and as an audience I am also intelligent enough to able to reach a deeper understanding than the superficial false physical one. You see, you allow yourself to use eloquent speech that has deeper meaning than the merely superficial physical meaning but you deny such ability to The God. My advice to you is you should appreciate The God more.
############# are u trying to say the word hajj has its root in hajj to bayt and every application should be restricted to it? even if it refers to the bayt it would still not have an impact our discussion...whether the first house be in mecca or midian or madagascar...v intend to determine whether baytalharam and masjidalharam are distinct! -)
How do you know whether they are distinct or not and what is the relation between them if you don't even seem to know what they mean? If you really know what they mean then why don't you translate "baytalharam" and "masjidalharam" for us?
############## no....playing out a muslim in letter and spirit is needed to be a role model! -)
All that the great reading says in 2226 about the location is Ibrahim to not setting up partners as the only requirement for the location of the house. I don't know what you mean by "muslim". It means different things to different people.
most people are not firm on the true path or sometimes the newer generation loses the old values! -)
This is why the physical place is not important. It is those values that matter. If people at the place lose the values, then the place stops being the restriction house.
lolz...when u have to play a model community 24/7 i dont see the significance of an annual fair! -) u are perhaps suggesting ghettoisation and to annually invite humanity to see the exhibition of ideal muslims.....do shed some light on how that works out! -)
that said i do not believe that simply 'not setting up with god' makes an ideal community....like i said...letter and spirit!So give an example of a community today that doesn't setup partners with The God and is not a model community.
Peace,
Ayman
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simple wrote
the god wrote."# yes...why just business dealings and tradings...would it not be a continuous application?"business dealings and tradings obviousely this was the prime thing taking men away from their families and that is the time and place one may be away from the wife/s,So certainly sexual gratification wasnt/isnt satisfied.''
Like great Marco Polo , and others like him away from home???
Or traveling with your flock of sheep to sell or exchange for things to a gathering and/or a trading centre .
i am not sure it is about unsatisfied needs because of being away from wife...its perhaps about not indulging in the act even if one is able to...if a family goes together...or a couple goes together on trading...in that case they would not be away from each other...cool? -)
salaams -)
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ayman wrote
Hmm... as far as I remember, you were promoting spinning around a stone earlier and only when shown the appropriate clear indisputable passages from the great reading did you change your mind and said that it wasn't really spinning and it was "going about".lolz...like i said u try ur best to limit things to ur limited understanding rather than expand ur understanding to comprehend them...u are claiming i meant by circumambulate to 'spin around a stone 7 times'...so for ur benefit let me recall our dialogue...i wrote
that is because u are viewing masjidalharam and baytalharam as distinct! still...let's look at the 2226 to get a clearer picture...
And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.
circumambulate this house....why?...because it is a sign from god...see 396-97...so that makes believing in god a condition!
as u can see i never made any such claim about 7 spins or any stone..it was a plain lie on ur part..now lets see how u understand circumambulate
ayman wrote
There is no "circumbulate" anywhere in this passage or the entire great reading. This of course, unless you want to make the suggestion that those who go in heaven have drinks or servants spinning seven times around them (5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615) and your family and you spin seven times around each other (245. So clearly, "circumbulate" has nothing to do with what The God's message is actually saying.so according to u circumambulate is spinning around something 7 times! now had u bothered to actually look up the word "circumambulate" instead of devoting urself to typing basesless allegations...u would have learnt that circumambulate means to walk around...think circumnavigate...that might help understand a bit better...dont get misled by the word 'around'...whether u walk around a square or a circular or a kite-shaped structure....it would still be called as walking 'around' it and here is as good as going about the house of god! now u can see that it has got nothing to do with ur understanding of circumambulation as 'spinning 7 times around something'...so rather than 'spinning' yarns promoting falsehood u should check up things before u speak! D
that said i do feel what u said was based on ur misunderstanding a few things rather than being intentional....so i dont really mind it...if u would want to go through the rest of ur post and make edits...if any at all...do so by all means...if instead u want to stick to the text i am fine with it...jus reply to the above points and ask me to get on with answerin the remainder of ur post! -)
and yes...i think i will be looking over 'attaifeena' a bit more!
peace -)
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Peace,
ayman wrote
There is no "circumbulate" anywhere in this passage or the entire great reading. This of course, unless you want to make the suggestion that those who go in heaven have drinks or servants spinning seven times around them (5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615) and your family and you spin seven times around each other (245. So clearly, "circumbulate" has nothing to do with what The God's message is actually saying.so according to u circumambulate is spinning around something 7 times! now had u bothered to actually look up the word "circumambulate" instead of devoting urself to typing basesless allegations...u would have learnt that circumambulate means to walk around...think circumnavigate...that might help understand a bit better...dont get misled by the word 'around'...whether u walk around a square or a circular or a kite-shaped structure....it would still be called as walking 'around' it and here is as good as going about the house of god! now u can see that it has got nothing to do with ur understanding of circumambulation as 'spinning 7 times around something'...so rather than 'spinning' yarns promoting falsehood u should check up things before u speak! D
that said i do feel what u said was based on ur misunderstanding a few things rather than being intentional....so i dont really mind it...if u would want to go through the rest of ur post and make edits...if any at all...do so by all means...if instead u want to stick to the text i am fine with it...jus reply to the above points and ask me to get on with answerin the remainder of ur post! -)
From what you said above, obviously there was no misunderstanding on my part. If you are still defending circumambulate/walk around/circumnavigate or whatever you want to call it, then there is no misunderstanding. It doesn't matter if you "circumnavigate" 1, 7, or 1000 times, there is no "circumnavigate" in the great reading. The term "tawaf" can be better understood as "mingle with one another" as seen from the passages where it occurs.
You said many times that you base your understanding on the great reading and I respect that. So if you really think that there is a misunderstanding on my part then translate what "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" and tell us where and what those are based on the great reading. Also, tell us what you think "hajj" is and what is its purpose and how this purpose is accomplished. This way you can add value to the discussion instead of merely being satisfied with criticizing without giving any better understanding. This will help not just you and me but also everyone who is reading this thread.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Alpha,
If you would care, this is my view on Hajj.
http//www.shariati.com/HAJJ2.htmlYour view meaning that you are Dr. Shariati or that you are adopting Dr. Shariati's view?
I had read the article before and there are many things in it that are not supported by the great reading. Just as a quick remakr, the author does mention one interesting thing that I agree with "Atiq represents being free!"
Peace,
Ayman