Creation Ex-Nihilo?
-
Energy is a result of a will of God, we are a result of the will of God. So we are all 'part' of Him. God is everything and more....
Stop trying to grasp God enquirer, God is ungraspable. You will never can give a shape or defintion to God, never.......
-
Too glorious and high is He, too exalted for what they say!
-
God is too glorious for what they ascribe to Him.
-
Too glorious is your Lord, the Lord of power, for what they ascribe to Him.
112 Pure Faith
Al-Ikhlas Makki
In the name of Allah, most benevolent, ever-merciful.
SAY "HE IS God the one the most unique,
2. God the immanently indispensable.
3. He has begotten no one, and is begotten of none.
4. There is nothing comparable to Him."Say He is all-knowing, and He is even above our understanding of all-knowing, say He is everything, He is even more then that, He is.........
Peace -
-
Peace arnoldyasin. I am not grasping my dear person. D In my mind i have a concept of god which is currently acceptable to me.
I am asking these questions to try to clarify and understand what you are saying.
peace. -
Yes i understand. For me God is ungraspable, we can only can grasp the creation He made. Energy from where all matter is built up, is also a creation of God, we can 'see', detect it. So this is not a 'form' of God, God will always be on the edges of understanding. Like we discussed in the 'being part of God' topic. But in mine understanding. The 'nothing' in the creations stories, tell there was nothing that had shape, all was One, and still is. But they talk about a 'moment' when there were no shapes and forms. When they were created, they came out of the 'nothing', the non-shape, into being a shape, but they, we, always remind being part of the All, of God, the One who's above all thinking. So there was not like some understandings, a nothing next to God. All is all, everything. And the nothing only resembles not being a being in the Being. Well that is a heck of a sentence! D
Peace
-
Peace arnoldyasin, enquirer and all,
To say that the creation is created from nothing is wrong, I think, because the god was already there, everywhere. He is the eternal, the omnipresent.
Even The "no-thing" as an entity could not exist because only the creator was, is and will be.
The god allowed the "no-thing" to exist, but the "no-thing" can not survive or resist the presence of the god.
It is like trying to make a hole in the surface of stable lake, as soon as you put and remove the finger from water, the void space free of water will be filled again, it can not exist for long.
The creation as we see it, is the part of the water removed that is flowing to fill the gap again, thus the multidimesionnel movement of the creation, following a set of rules also created by the creator when making the "nothing" (the hole= no water).
And the water was there before making the "no water". Without the water, the hole (the no-water) can not exist.
So, we are not from nothing, we and all the creation are from the god, allowed to exist through the creation of the "no-thing", and to the god we will return.
The state of the "no thing" is only a step in the process of the creation.
--
-
That is exactly what i said...............
-
Peace someone and arnoldyasin. See how words are sometimes almost inadequate to describe what we are saying ? Even more amazing is the fact that you both are saying seemingly the same thing in different ways. ! Im begining to think that truth can be worded/explained differently,but still mean the same truth. Subjectivity rules ! ...But only when expressing the truth.
Peace all. -
Hello arnoldyasin,
I think perhaps you may not have understood what Creation Ex-Nihilo means within Judeo Christian and Islamic sense. It litterally means creating something out of nothing. Nothing in this sense means neither matter or energy nor it is a empty space or quantum vacuum. But it means nothing.
If you look at the creation myths you have listed you will see that none of these have Creation Ex-Nihilo in the Judeo Christian and Islamic sense. All of these have Gods or Goddesses that either Create the World from their own energy or matter or from pre-existing matter or energy. Even Apsu and Tiamat in the Sumerian myth you have quoted emerged from a watery waste and not from nothing.
APSU - A primeval Sumero-Akkadian god who personifies the primordial abyss of sweet waters underneath the earth
Creation Ex-Nihilo is indeed starts with the Genesis account in the Bible but this idea was alien to the pagan contemporaries at that time. It was Nicea decree that made Creation Ex-Nihilo an official Christian Doctrine.
Regards,
-
I know exactly what it means, but the idea that there was nothing in the real sense, comes from the later greek thinking frame, the Bible doesn't say nothing in the term, nothing. It never denies it didn't came out of the energy of God, and i never really professed ex-nihilo. You can interpretate "nothing" from different point of views. Genesis just says, God created the earth and heavens...It never gives any defenition how the fill gap before that in. That the Christians did that by saying there was nothing, is there point of view. And they copied that from the Greeks sects, who copied that again from the Persians sects and they copied it from the.....and so on and so on. You have to remember that Genesis has its origins in Babylonia, so the roots of understanding in their time of Genesis, was the same as how the Sumerians looked at their creation myth. So the early Jews, also believed it all was created out of God. If you only tried to refer to the Greek-Christian ex-nihilo of that particulair group, yes, i don't accept that, why? Because that view gives a size to God, that the nothing was bigger then God, or that there was a nothing next to God, and by thus again giving Him a size.
And also saying the Christain version of ex-nihilo is the same as the islamic is not quite correct. Now it is, because the 'farmer'islam is more spread then the intelligent Islam. If you read the old islamic philosophers, you'll see they also believed God is everything, and i don't mean the sufi philosophers. It more depends in what age you wanna look. Like now, protestant Christians, see God as an All-pervading power. The catholics in the old day, looked at God as if He were Zeus. So the concept changed every 100 years, and depended on from which culture you looked. So what you mean is, the ex-nihilo from the Greek-Christians, around the year 200-400 till a small portion of the Catholics now. So you cannot just say, the Judeo-Christian point of view, because there are to many different understandings to generalize them with one term.
So, on one point i misunderstood you, yes, i didn't knew, you meant the exact term of that particulair group, that got the upper hand in the concillies because of Constantine, that looked at God as He was Zeus. The exact term of ex-nihilo decreed in the Nicea-decree. Because even in those concillies, most of the scholars disagreed on this, and they were forced to believe this by the rulers. My mistake...
St Augustine "confessions" 400AD
"What was God doing before He created the Universe? Before He created Heaven and Earth, God created hell to be used for people such as you who ask this kind of question."Peace
-
My understanding of this matter is limited to following image
God created the worlds and the time. Time is the common axis through which the process of becoming (manifestation) becomes possible.
HE is not subjected to anything even TIME. so HE also made the time.
Before God created the world . FAILURE . Before is a time related word. Before He created, there was no time. (Even was is a time bounded word).
The same algorithm goes for thing and nothing.
OUR TIME-BOUNDED, THREE DIMENSIONAL UNDERSTANDING CAN NOT GRASP IT.
As far as I have understood, If you go through Quran , when talking about hereafter, instead of using time frames, it talks about immortality, but does not mention any time frame. Will the conception of time differ in the coming world? maybe!
peace.
-
Hello Arnoldyasin,
If you only tried to refer to the Greek-Christian ex-nihilo of that particulair group, yes, i don't accept that, why? Because that view gives a size to God, that the nothing was bigger then God, or that there was a nothing next to God, and by thus again giving Him a size.
But if you say even God can't create something out of nothing then you are limiting God's omnipotence are you not?
And also saying the Christain version of ex-nihilo is the same as the islamic is not quite correct.
Yes, it is true that Falsafa, the Islamic philosophers came to reject creation ex-nihilo. But creation ex-nihilo was the doctrine of the majority of the muslim Ulemas I think...
St Augustine "confessions" 400AD
"What was God doing before He created the Universe? Before He created Heaven and Earth, God created hell to be used for people such as you who ask this kind of question."
PeaceI take it you have read "Zorba The Greek" -)
-
Peace,
Quote
But if you say even God can't create something out of nothing then you are limiting God's omnipotence are you not?No, most people see God as having a certain form or size, see Him 'float' in the nothingness, and then He created out of the nothing, that is what i mean with God and the nothing next to it. What is meant with nothing, is there was no form of creation, but everything was God, God with no form or size or limit. Nothing only is a definition for no shape, or created form, inside God. I hope it is clear what i mean...
Quote
I take it you have read "Zorba The Greek" -)No, i read Augustine myself...... ;D He is an interresting philosopher.
Peace
-
Peace,
Quote
But if you say even God can't create something out of nothing then you are limiting God's omnipotence are you not?No, most people see God as having a certain form or size, see Him 'float' in the nothingness, and then He created out of the nothing, that is what i mean with God and the nothing next to it. What is meant with nothing, is there was no form of creation, but everything was God, God with no form or size or limit. Nothing only is a definition for no shape, or created form, inside God. I hope it is clear what i mean...
So there is no such thing as "nothingness" then? Nothingness as in absence of both matter and energy? Absensence of form is not "nothingness" as understood in the judeo Christian and Muslim concept of Creation Ex Nihilo.
Regards,
-
No, this is my concept of it...........
I follow Quran and science, no tradtions or perceptions from ancient mythology.... -
Strictly logically speaking
Nothing = lack of any and all properties
Existence = a property
Thus nothing does not and nor did it ever exist.Therefore creation from nothing is impossible since it can't exist.
However, if we take the scientific definition of 'nothing' (which is by and large a 'pure vacuum', but however is not property-less) then creation from 'nothing' is possible.
-
Therefore creation from nothing is impossible since it can't exist.
Even for an omnipotent God?
Regards,
-
Therefore creation from nothing is impossible since it can't exist.
Even for an omnipotent God?
Regards,
I don't think you're following the logic here. "Nothing" does not and never existed. The concept of "nothing" is as logically sound as the fabled "squarecircle". It's a logical impossibility. Whether or not it is 'possible for an omnipotent god' is not a logical question.
-
Peace,
Maybe if you approach the word 'nothing' differently as in nothing=no creation, as in nothing had shape, nothing of creation was part of reality. So God was already as the everything, but He formed nothing yet..
So i see it not as from 'nothing', as in philosophy non-excistance refers to not-being, as in not being there in a form. So all is formed out of ' nothing', as in formed out of God, as God being all-pervading and everywhere, and only then had gotten shape/form/creation/purpose.The creation of matter is out of nothing as proven by the string-theory.
In "Parallel Worlds" Dr Kaku, world known co-founder of String theory, states
" At first, one might object to the notion of amultiverse, because it seems to violate known laws, such as the conservation of matter and energy. However the total matter/energy content of a universe may actually be very small. The matter content of universe, including all the stars, planets, galaxies, is huge and positive. However, the energy storedwithin gravity may be negative. If you add positive nenergy due to matter to the negative nergy due to gravity, the sum may be close to xero!.In some sense, such universes are free. They can spring pout of the vacuum almost effortlessly.( if the universe is close then the total energy content of the universe must be zero.In fact to creat a universe like ours may require a rediculously small net amount of matter, perhaps as little as an oune.As "Guth"like to say,"the universe may be a free lunch".This idea of creating universe from nothing was frist introduced by physicist Edward Tyron of Hunter college of the City University of NEw York, in a paper published in "Nature" magazine in 1973. He speculated that the univese is something <" which happens from time to time" due to a quantum fluctuation in the vacuumAlthought the net amount of matter required to creat a universe may be close to zero, thismatter must be compressed to incredible densities.
He continues to discuss," Although the universe from nothing theory cannnot be proved with conventional means, it does help to answwer very practical questions about the universe. For example why deos not the universe spin?Everything we see around us spins , from tops, hurricanes,plantes, and galaxies to quasars. It seems to be a universal characteristic of matter in the niverse. But the universe itself doe snto spin. When we look at the galaxies in the heavens, their total spin cancels out to zero.
He adds," this is quite fortunate, becasue if the universe did spin then time travel would become common place and history would be impossible to write.The reason why the univese does not spin may be that our univese came from nothing. Since the vacuum does not spin, we do not expect to see any net spin arising in our universe. In fact all the bubble universes with in the multiverse may have zero net spin."Peace
-
Peace,
Maybe if you approach the word 'nothing' differently as in nothing=no creation, as in nothing had shape, nothing of creation was part of reality. So God was already as the everything, but He formed nothing yet..
So i see it not as from 'nothing', as in philosophy non-excistance refers to not-being, as in not being there in a form. So all is formed out of ' nothing', as in formed out of God, as God being all-pervading and everywhere, and only then had gotten shape/form/creation/purpose.Only problem with this is when it comes to logical inspection it falls down. Firstly, 'god' has to inherently be part of 'reality', and the exitence of god itself would nullify said 'nothingness'. I don't know...maybe if you gave your idea of 'nothing' clearly defined boundaries it would be easier to discuss.
The string theory
The idea of a multiverse is interesting but as of now it's still speculative physics with no evidence. But yeah, it's fun to speculate on it and it does answer some questions (such as why is everything in the universe so finely-tuned for life?). In terms of science, I'm fond of the idea of the 'singularity' which exploded thus giving rise to the universe; it's good because it has the added support of the accuracy of Quantum Theory.
P.s. Kaku didn't 'find' String Theory but he is one of the bigger proponents of it.
-
Maybe if you approach the word 'nothing' differently as in nothing=no creation, as in nothing had shape, nothing of creation was part of reality. So God was already as the everything, but He formed nothing yet..
But I have defined "nothingness" for you already. Nothingness is absence of both matter and energy. But you are saying this kind of "nothingness" does not Exist. You are defining "nothingness" as formlessness...
The creation of matter is out of nothing as proven by the string-theory.
But that is not "nothing" - matter arises from energy.
But is energy itself formless?
Regards,
-
Peace,
I say everything arised from God, energy and from that matter. God cannot be defined in terms as energy. That is what i mean with nothing. Nothing not as truly empty, as God is there, but not as 'energy', as God cannot be defined in those terms. And God self is formless, but not conciousnessless or powerless.
P.S. where do i say he was the discoverer? He is one of the co-founders of the theories that are now worked out.