Fate of the qur'aan rejecters
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Salaamun alaikum brother Ahmed, agent xxx, all,
please don't take my comment the wrong way
this is what I believe 100% is right regarding the name Quran, and I can backup this from the Quran, i'm not trying to mislead you or to show that i know better, this is not the case and Allah is my witness
regarding forcing opinions, or course you never did, neither anyone did on this web site, it just can't happen logically speaking
In Arabic language there is no capital letter to indicate a proper name. Whether a word is referring to a proper name is determined by the CONTEXT of usage of that word.
You will have a point if Allah had used the word "ism" with "al-quran" or referring to it, just like He uses "asma al-husna" for His names or "bismillah" for His name Allah.
I am curious, have you read the article at the following link, which explains in detail what I am summarising above ?
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
Brother Ahmed and brother agentxxx, if you guys don't agree with my understanding then would you care to enlighten us with your understanding of the following ?
QURAN HAS 114 CHAPTERS , THE ABOVE VERSES ARE FROM CHAPTER 6 AND 10 WHICH MEANS THAT STILL 108 SURAS OR CHAPTERS WERE YET/DUE TO BE REVEALED AFTER SURA 6, AND 104 SURAS WERE DUE AFTER SURA 10
So would you kindly explain what QURAN means in the above verses? Surely it wouldn?t have meant quran the book as logically it could not have been compiled/collected as a book at the time these verses were revealed.
The verses being referred to are
619 Say "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches, that you bear witness that along with God are other gods!" Say "I do not bear witness!" Say "He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you set up!"
1037 This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds
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peace brother tanveermd,
you wrote
Brother Ahmed and brother agentxxx, if you guys don't agree with my understanding then would you care to enlighten us with your understanding of the following ?
agentxxx wrote
QURAN HAS 114 CHAPTERS , THE ABOVE VERSES ARE FROM CHAPTER 6 AND 10 WHICH MEANS THAT STILL 108 SURAS OR CHAPTERS WERE YET/DUE TO BE REVEALED AFTER SURA 6, AND 104 SURAS WERE DUE AFTER SURA 10So would you kindly explain what QURAN means in the above verses? Surely it wouldn?t have meant quran the book as logically it could not have been compiled/collected as a book at the time these verses were revealed.
brother tanveer this was meant for you to explain
honestly i dont have a logical explanation and i am confused on this issue oops
maybe bro ahmed,bro idolfree1 or some other bro/sister can explain it?peace.
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peace brother tanveermd,
you wrote
Brother Ahmed and brother agentxxx, if you guys don't agree with my understanding then would you care to enlighten us with your understanding of the following ?
agentxxx wrote
QURAN HAS 114 CHAPTERS , THE ABOVE VERSES ARE FROM CHAPTER 6 AND 10 WHICH MEANS THAT STILL 108 SURAS OR CHAPTERS WERE YET/DUE TO BE REVEALED AFTER SURA 6, AND 104 SURAS WERE DUE AFTER SURA 10So would you kindly explain what QURAN means in the above verses? Surely it wouldn?t have meant quran the book as logically it could not have been compiled/collected as a book at the time these verses were revealed.
brother tanveer this was meant for you to explain )
honestly i dont have a logical explanation and i am confused on this issue oops
maybe bro ahmed,bro idolfree1 or some other bro/sister can explain it?peace.
Peace bro
Please consider that the order you see in the Quran today, was not the order of revelation, in fact sura 9 was lthe ast sura revealed, i'm not familiar with the order of revelation as it does not concern me but i will try to look at it but this requires a lot of Qiraa (Reading)
there is also somethin in the Quran that came to mind and i will try to qualify it then compile it later today
Salam mate
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Peace agentxxx,
QURAN HAS 114 CHAPTERS , THE ABOVE VERSES ARE FROM CHAPTER 6 AND 10 WHICH MEANS THAT STILL 108 SURAS OR CHAPTERS WERE YET/DUE TO BE REVEALED AFTER SURA 6, AND 104 SURAS WERE DUE AFTER SURA 10
So would you kindly explain what QURAN means in the above verses? Surely it wouldn?t have meant quran the book as logically it could not have been compiled/collected as a book at the time these verses were revealed.
brother tanveer this was meant for you to explain
honestly i dont have a logical explanation and i am confused on this issue
maybe bro ahmed,bro idolfree1 or some other bro/sister can explain it?The verses being referred to are
619 Say "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches, that you bear witness that along with God are other gods!" Say "I do not bear witness!" Say "He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you set up!"
1037 This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds
Maybe it is confusing to you because you are trying to force your pre-programmed understanding of "al-qur'aan" = "proper name of the book" and thus only meaning the whole book.
If you translate "al-qur'aan" as "the reading", it could refer to either a part or the whole of the book in these verses, and the meaning would fit without confusion.
Also the translation of "al-qur'aan" as "the collection/compilation" would fit as it can refer to the collection/compilation at any stage.
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Peace bro tmd,
You wrote
Maybe it is confusing to you because you are trying to force your pre-programmed understanding of "al-qur'aan" = "proper name of the book" and thus only meaning the whole book.
Yes you are right, I used to understand AL QURAN as proper name of THE BOOK And I think 99% of the people have the same understanding, simply type reading and search on the net and then type quran and search, you will see what i am trying to say.
I was familiar with the meaning ?quran=reading? too, but I never took it seriously till I read the threads by brother idolfree1.bro tanveermd-If you translate "al-qur'aan" as "the reading", it could refer to either a part or the whole of the book in these verses, and the meaning would fit without confusion.
Yes it does help but then something else raises the same question in mind?
15 1. Alif Lam Ra. These are the VERSES of the BOOK and (of) a QURAN/READING that makes (things) clear.
Alif La_m Ra_, tilka A_YA_Tul KITA_Bi wa QUR'A_Nim mubin(in).No confusion on this one as it says these are the verses of the book which are being sent down.
now look at these verses2951.- And is it not enough for them that WE HAVE SENT DOWN TO THEE THE BOOK which is rehearsed to them?
3 7. He it is WHO HAS SENT DOWN TO THEE THE BOOK In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book
- And THIS IS A BOOK WHICH WE HAVE SENT DOWN,
Book =written/Printed work which is bound together
again my curiosity forces me to ask WHAT BOOK?
bro tmd-Also the translation of "al-qur'aan" as "the collection/compilation" would fit as it can refer to the collection/compilation at any stage.
So the whole collection can also be called al quran ) .
peace.
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Peace agentxxx,
again my curiosity forces me to ask WHAT BOOK?
Sometimes Allah mentions something in one part of al-qur'aan and explains it in another. To find out what Allah means, one has to go through the whole qur'aan.
151 A.L.R, these are the signs of the book, and a clear qur'aan/reading.
271 T'.S, these are the signs of the qur'aan/the reading and a clear book.
413 A book whose verses are detailed, an Arabic qur'aan/compilation for a people who know.
There you go, Allah tells you what book.
So the whole collection can also be called al quran .
Of course, al-qur'aan is one of the attributes of the book. I have no problem referring to the whole collection as al-qur'aan as long as the word is used as a common noun, just like the common noun "al-islam" is used to refer to the system/obligation/deen prescribed by Allah.
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peace tanveermd,
you wrote
Sometimes Allah mentions something in one part of al-qur'aan and explains it in another. To find out what Allah means, one has to go through the whole qur'aan.
151 A.L.R, these are the signs of the book, and a clear qur'aan/reading.
271 T'.S, these are the signs of the qur'aan/the reading and a clear book.
413 A book whose verses are detailed, an Arabic qur'aan/compilation for a people who know.brother tanveer Your analysis doesn?t seem to match the verses you quoted?
bro tmd-There you go, Allah tells you what book.
) ok brother let me ask a simple question, was the reading/quran given to the prophet as a book/written /bound together? or was it men who wrote and bound it together as a book?
peace.
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Peace agentxxx,
Please refer to the following link for an article that answers your question in detail
http//www.free-minds.org/books/wadud_05.htm
Both qur'aan and kitab when referring to each other, are attributes of THE MESSAGE or THE TRUTH sent by Allah to mankind.
By the way, kitab as used in al-qur'aan often refers to al-qur'aan but does not always refer to al-qur'aan. Kitab does not always mean a written bound book. The context lets us know what the usage is.
For example, in the following verses "kitab" does not refer to qur'aan or a written, bound book
2775 And there is not a thing hidden in the heavens or the Earth, but is in a clear kitab.
659 And with Him are the keys to the unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the Earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear kitab.
1061 Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even an atoms weight on Earth or in the heavens, nor smaller than that nor larger, but is in a clear kitab.
116 And there is not a creature on Earth except that its provision is due from God. And He knows where it dwells and where it hides. All is in a clear kitab.
Another example is an e-book that one can download from the internet. It is still called a book even though it doesn't have pages one can feel and it is not bound.
Maybe Allah has preserved some of His words in a holographic virtual book of some sort, like "lawhin mahfoozin"
8521 No, it is a glorious qur'aan.
8522 In a tablet, preserved.Maybe when Allah talks about sending down a book (692), He means sending down that virtual book to the prophet, which was then written down and bound in the form of a physical book, just like downloading a virtual book from Allah's website and then printing it in our printer !! )
For some discussions on kitab and qur'aan in this forum please see the following links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3650
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2670
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4565 -
Salam,
As far as I know, nowhere in Al Quran God tells the Nasranis and Yahudis to believe in and uphold Al Quran. He only criticizes their false concept of God which leads to idolatry (Due to misunderstanding of the Torah and Injil).
Anyone thinks I'm wrong? Please enlighten me wink
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Peace jankren,
you wrote
As far as I know, nowhere in Al Quran God tells the Nasranis and Yahudis to believe in and uphold Al Quran. He only criticizes their false concept of God which leads to idolatry (Due to misunderstanding of the Torah and Injil).
I agree with you bro
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And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
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AND THE FOLLOWERS OF THE INJEEL SHOULD HAVE JUDGED BY WHAT ALLAH REVEALED IN IT; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
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And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; FOR EVERY ONE OF YOU DID WE APPOINT A LAW AND A WAY, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, THEREFORE STRIVE WITH ONE ANOTHER TO HASTEN TO VIRTUOUS DEEDS; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
peace.
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Peace jankren. Very good point you make. Why should christians and jews follow an arabic version(similiar.) of their own book? Especially when the book itself(quran.) says to keep upholding the true message of their own scriptures.What does the quran have that is new or different to what the bible or torah offers?
Peace all. -
Peace jankren. Very good point you make. Why should christians and jews follow an arabic version(similiar.) of their own book? Especially when the book itself(quran.) says to keep upholding the true message of their own scriptures.What does the quran have that is new or different to what the bible or torah offers?
peace enquirer and all.
the Koran does not , at any point , even hint about following any other book besides itself . the taurah and injeel mentioned in the koran are not the Torah and Gospel of the jews and christians .taurah and injeel are aspects of the the Book(Koran) .
the Koran is the book which was revealed to the prophets
2213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Book with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed...
so again, no need for any other books .
peace.
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Peace dabaari,
My point of view is quite different than yours.
I believe that GOD?s message is neither restricted to arabic language nor to book of Quran ( which I read every night).
I believe that every single soul that comes into this world is created by HIM and before HIS WATCHFULL EYES IS BORN TO THIS WORLD. . So every single American, Japanese, Chinese, Eskimo,...is made by HIM as a unique individual. . All these people have the GIFT of GOD in their soul and can become a graciouse human being without ever hearing about Quran. They just need to become straightforward from inside and GOD will shower them by HIS guidance.
peace,
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Peace jankren. Very good point you make. Why should christians and jews follow an arabic version(similiar.) of their own book? Especially when the book itself(quran.) says to keep upholding the true message of their own scriptures.What does the quran have that is new or different to what the bible or torah offers?
peace enquirer and all.
the Koran does not , at any point , even hint about following any other book besides itself . the taurah and injeel mentioned in the koran are not the Torah and Gospel of the jews and christians .taurah and injeel are aspects of the the Book(Koran) .
the Koran is the book which was revealed to the prophets
2213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Book with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed...
so again, no need for any other books .
peace.
Peace
Darbaari, I am inclined to agree with you since that makes most sense. But I wonder, how does what you said relate to the following verse
The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked. 547
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Peace.
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Peace CavemanDoctor, Nadeem, all,
I think that some of us are confusing the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED taurat and the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED injeel with the current New Testament and the Old Testament, and are failing to realize that the ORIGINAL taurat and injeel, and the present qur'aan are all the same books, containing the same message, sent at different times and different languages. They are also failing to realize that the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED taurat and injeel are not in existence anymore.
There is no problem with the Jews upholding the taurat and the Christians upholding the injeel. The problem is that the taurat sent to Moses and the injeel sent to Jesus do not survive in the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED form and the current translated versions are full of corruptions, distortions, and fabrications, and also include the sayings of different people in addition to the alleged words of Allah.
Hence nowadays, the only way Jews and Christians can follow the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED taurat and the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED injeel is by following the qur'aan, as the qur'aan authenticates the scriptures originally sent to them and SUPERSEDES them, and its message has been preserved.
Allah explains it like this
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus the son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is guidance and light, and to authenticate what is present with him of the Torah, and a guidance and lesson for the righteous.
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.Jesus was sent the injeel which authenticated the taurat and therefore the people of the injeel were asked to judge with the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED injeel. The reason they were not asked to judge by the taurat is because the taurat was corrupted by then and the injeel authenticated it; the injeel therefore was the same book as the taurat but an AUTHENTIC UNCORRUPTED version of it AT THE TIME IT WAS SENT.
But then by the time the qur'aan was sent, the injeel had gotten corrupted too, and the qur'aan authenticated the injeel and superseded it just like the injeel did to the taurat.
548 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
The blue part of 548 is addressed to Prophet Muhammad, telling him that the latest book sent to him authenticates the previous books, and supersedes it and to judge mankind by it. From this it follows that all the books sent by Allah, including the taurat, the injeel, and the qur'aan, can be considered the same book with the same message, but sent in different languages.
In the red part, "for each of you" means each of you from the mankind. "We have made laws and structure for each of you" means that there are the same laws and structure for each of us from the entire mankind. It does not suggest that there are different laws and structure for Jews or Christians.
The green part says that Allah could have made us one nation but He didn't. That means when the qur'aan was sent there were different nations, but He is testing all those nations with the same book i.e. the qur'aan. It does not suggest that Jews are being tested with the taurat or the Christians are tested with the injeel AFTER revelation of the qur'aan, but it means that all nations including Jews, Christians, and other believers, they are all being tested by the same qur'aan, and they should all be judged by the same qur'aan.
Let me requote 547
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.
Yes, according to 547 and the context of 546, the people of the injeel are the people to whom the injeel was sent down and they are asked to judge with WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN IN IT. They are not being asked to judge with the current New Testament which has things IN ADDITION TO WHAT GOD HAS SENT. Allah further says in the red part, that whoever does not judge with WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN (meaning the original true injeel, not the corrupted version) are the vile ones.
So how can the people of the injeel find out WHAT GOD HAS SENT IN IT ? By comparing it with the qur'aan of course, and following only those parts that the qur'aan authenticates and confirms. If they do that then in essence they are following the qur'aan, and the New Testament would be redundant anyway.
The whole concept can be easily understood if we realize that the ORIGINAL taurat, the ORIGINAL injeel, and the qur'aan are all different versions of THE SAME BOOK, containing THE SAME MESSAGE, but in different languages, and sent at different times. In order for Jews to follow the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED taurat, and for Christians to follow the ORIGINAL UNCORRUPTED injeel, after the revelation of the qur'aan, they are left with no choice but to follow the qur'aan, as they are all one and the same in message, and the message was preserved in its totality only in the qur'aan.
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Salam, D
If we study the bible(NT), nowhere in it Jesus claims to be God nor promotes trinity. Therefore, I think the major corruption doesnt lie in the book itself, instead, it's in the mind of its readers.
Im not trying to defend the bible, but in my opinion, most of the real messages of Jesus the prophet of God still exist and remain uncorrupted in the bible (Especially in the books of his disciples, not the thrashy ones that were written by people who never even met him like Paul). wink
These are the main causes of corruption of the major scriptures/faiths
Injil+Paul's books = Corruption
Torah+Talmud = Corruption
Al Quran+False hadith = Corruption -
Peace tanvermed and all. Brother tanvermed,What is your evidence that the bible and torah have been corrupted? What is your proof that the quran has not been corrupted? I tend to agree with jankrens comment that sometimes its partially the mind of the reader that is actually corrupt,not just the book. If the quran told you red was blue would you believe it,or use your own intelligence from outside the book?
Your breakdown of the verses is your opinion,and not necessarily correct on this topic... Why did allah allow his other books to be corrupted and not the quran,as you state? Is the quran like some say jesus is.....ie the only way to salvation. D
Sorry for all the questions,and please dont take it too personally or offensively. D
Peace all. -
peace.
Peace tanvermed and all. Brother tanvermed,What is your evidence that the bible and torah have been corrupted? What is your proof that the quran has not been corrupted?
i think it is wrong to bring in the topic "proof that the quran has not been corrupted?" , because this topic is about fate of the quran rejectors(according to the quran) . so it would be better to quote some koranic verses to prove your point . i think the proof can be discussed in a seperate thread (by the way , i already showed u a proof here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=80773#80773 , but u ignored it comlpetely and never even commented on it)
Your breakdown of the verses is your opinion,and not necessarily correct on this topic... Why did allah allow his other books to be corrupted and not the quran,as you state? Is the quran like some say jesus is.....ie the only way to salvation.
as i have already quoted from the koran , that koran is the only book revealed to the prophets (2213) . Allah did not send any book before the Koran
464 Say "Do you see those that you call on besides God? Show me what they have created on the earth, or do they have a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this, or any trace of knowledge, if you are truthful."
what do u say ?
peace. -
Peace darbari. My book is my conscience my friend. The quran is muhammeds conscience and thoughts written down. His thoughts are from a different time and context,he also made mistakes. I use my own conscience to verify knowledge,not muhammeds.(17;36 ?) Your quoting of numerous verses is just your opinions,not neceassarily the truth. If the quran said the earth is a square would you believe it? How can you prove the quran from the quran,or from some verses being correct? Some of the verses are correct,i agree,but some of the bible is also correct....does that mean i should believe in all of the bible and the quran totally and literally?
Listen my friend,if you want to take moral benefit from the quran im happy for you,it might be good for you...but to say it has no mistakes or corruption or that you cant be successful without the quran is nonsense.
Peace all. Ps; you or i can start a new thread on;'corruption in the quran' ,if you like. D