Conclusive proof: THE QUR'AAN IS THE WORD OF ALLAH

unknownuser

Peace Magi,

My understanding is that al kitab is the universal book. Or the/a book that makes us understand Quran, (the message). Yes i can but it is a lengthy debate that has been taken ad naeseum other places on this board. But naturally im open to suggestions. Im looking for truth, not for being right.

I think that the qur'aan (the message) makes us understand al-kitab, not the other way around

1037 This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.

apparently a whole lot. as nobody not even Quran aloners can get to agree on it. thus, as clear as it is to you, it is your own personal interpretation, thus my point stands. As someone else will read something else in there.

I am not a qur'aan aloner but a God aloner. The qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and it itself asks us to use our minds, reason, and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without, including our bodies, the universe around us, archeological findings etc.

An im still telling you that many of these things was knowledge thousands of years before the book was revealed.

Still no concrete evidence/reference. How can you say this without any concrete evidence to back you up ? Sounds like conjecture to me !

God, ofcourse.

I agree. That was the core point of this discussion.

Were not debating the message or trueness of it. merely the words on paper, and evidence i find suspicieus regarding The Divine.

I think you are still misunderstanding me. I am not discussing the exact words on paper but the message or trueness of it. If the message was authored by Allah then it has to be true.

Big bang as a fact, is slowly falling apart, but im not concluding anything untill i see more of it. Look into the zulu tribe of africa. thousands of years ago they knew the world was round (as seen in their art), and for some strange reason, they have tablets of the weight of planetary bodies. In india, they had the power to weld better and with something more solid than we have ever seen before. Im talking about the infamed pilar that doesn rust =/
And the list goes on. Many people call this stuff, out of place artifacts/knowledge, i think the only thing out of place after having seen in the 100's of these strange things, is...that we belive we did not have these knowledges at some point before. altso in written form.

References please (from where you get this information).

Also provide me concrete references from where you get the idea that the particular scientific facts I mentioned in my last post were already known at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.

Several people said when US entered vietnam (a supposedly cakewalk like Iraq) that it would be suicide. It showed to be suicide, are they prophets and Godsend too then?

They thought it might be suicide but did not state it as a FACT. If they did state it as a fact then please give me the references/evidence.

By misquoting I meant you saying that I did something whereas actually I didn't. Accuse might have been a better word than misquote. For example I didn't judge you but made a conditional statement and you claimed that I judged you. The verses I quoted were applicable only IF the conditional statement was true, which I found was not true.

unknownuser

peace

I am not a qur'aan aloner but a God aloner. The qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and it itself asks us to use our minds, reason, and knowledge and to contemplate on the signs within and without, including our bodies, the universe around us, archeological findings etc.

im not really sure anymore what we are debating because it would seem that at the core of things we are in 100% agreement with eachother.

Still no concrete evidence/reference. How can you say this without any concrete evidence to back you up ? Sounds like conjecture to me !

I gave you a clue brother. OUT OF PLACE/TIME ARTIFACTS!!! THere is so much data, that to say, go look in this book is ridiculous, because no collected work has been made on the subject. But you realise that youre indirectly calling me a liar. Its not my duty to show you what i have allready learned. I have showed you a direction, wich would be my responsability in this regard.

I think you are still misunderstanding me. I am not discussing the exact words on paper but the message or trueness of it. If the message was authored by Allah then it has to be true.

Hmm...Well we both agree that the message is true, and i think i have to go along with your explanation that i have it the wrong way around. However, i had the words mixed up, my understanding of it is basically the same as yours. Quran, al kitab.

My main point being. There is not a guaranteed protection of the meduim, the book, there is of what its containing. Even if perverts changed every single word in the whole scripture, any honest searchin belivever would still "get the point". With our without dubvious "evidence" from a science we know change face all the time. i mean we blame science when it disagree with us for changing all the time, but when it confirm stuff we can INTERPRETATE out of our books with out current understanding. Suddenly science is valid as evidence.

This is why im saying. TO hell with what science says if it is of no practical use for me. The evidence of the truthfullness of the message must be something else. I have experienced a drastic change in character in just months, after i released of all my idols altso the book wich i idolised myself, i nearly gave up faith. And there crawling on my knees i realised that i was completely missing the point by continously searching the book for answers. All it does is point in directions, the work is my own to do. As far as im concerned. the book we are debating regardless of name, does not contain a single answer. And yet, it is another key to every single answer you ever need to understand the things around you.

If you want to take these interpretations that we talk about, for evidence. Thats good, that would mean that its doing its thing. You think its evidence, ergo, its evidence, as its leading you to the message. For me personally its other stuff that does it, a more practical experience based approach you might call it.

Also provide me concrete references from where you get the idea that the particular scientific facts I mentioned in my last post were already known at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.

Take a look at some of Aymans articles, i find them fascinating. He ackonwledge e.g that the neabeteans was expert astrologers. If thats the case. They too would have known about the stellar bodies of movemnt, as did everybody at the time. Whole relegions is based in these planets and their paths.

They thought it might be suicide but did not state it as a FACT. If they did state it as a fact then please give me the references/evidence.

please hand me the evidence that MOhammads uncle is in hell. Here on earth such a prophecy is not worth the paper its written on obviously. And as such, purely logical thinking forbids me to acknowledge this. its either something i cannot understand entirely, the example means something else than it says, or...its not part of the message in total, and does in no way affect my salvation if i belive in it or not.

The message is perfect, but is the book? I know the book says its perfect, but so does laveys book, and i dont think thats perfect, In fact, i find his books message repulsive, regardless of the fact that it is well written, in a strong language and well articulated. Nostradamus work, altso can be said as having prophecy fullfilled,or rather so somone interpretate it to be. Is his message perfect. there isnt really any is there, but is his work technically was flawless. Leaernado da vinci etc. etc..

Many people have written books next to flawless, many have prophecised and had it come true (if you interpretate it that way). So, all we can judge on, is the message it conveys. And i think this is our only seperation in mindset.

Finally, I am humbled by my error towards you, please accept my sincere appology i had no intention of hurting your feelings.

agentxxx

Peace tanveermd,

tanveermd- The scientific facts are the signs which we can use to verify and confirm THE TRUTH BEING FROM OUR LORD.

Bro what scientific facts as signs were there for those who too believed, it is a truth from our lord?

It is the code of ethics that makes quran a wonderful book and not some ambiguous verses/references. And Frankly I don?t need any confirmation regarding honesty, mercy, charity, justice, peace, tolerance, equality, love etc because I know these are the truth from our lord, no scientific facts as signs are required to believe in them.

3955- AND FOLLOW THE BEST THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;

My understanding regarding THIS BEST THAT HAS BEEN REVELED FROM OUR LORD, and which we are being told to follow, is the CODE OF ETHICS, the punishment mentioned in the verse/quran also is in reference to the violation of this code and not due to belief or disbelief in irrelevant scientific indications of quran.

tanveermd- Yes, the qur'aan is nothing but a reminder, and part of what it reminds us is to use our mind, reason, and knowledge and contemplate on the signs within and without to search for the truth.

Others have used their minds, reason, and knowledge to search for the signs and discover the truth in the universe/nature, and after they make a scientific discovery we use our mind, reason, and knowledge to associate it with some verse of quran so TO PROVE IT IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD .

Today most of our intellectuals/scholars are busy preaching/debating the so-called scientific realities in quran rather then preaching the excellent code of ethics, which is the essence of quran.

Peace.

alpha97

Peace agentxxx,

I most certainly do agree with you. Very important understanding.

peace,

unknownuser

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

I understand this point fully. But do you understand that i could easily point out 20 people i know wouldnt repent anything, even if their life depended on it.

For an evidence to be valid, we have to be able to confirm the outcome. If we cant, its not evidence. And as prophecy, this is weak at best.

peace

Hello

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

another point is, you can say that i will die kafir, but how you can gurantte that i will die as such if I still have 9 years to live for argument sake?

see, if I managed to believe within these 9 years then your prophecy is proven wrong,

imagine now that I hate you too, I can easily fake my believe to prove you wrong in front of everyone, i won't care about what is after death then

Salam

agentxxx

peace danish,

danish- Yet the batsmen throws back sixers and fourers .

bro depends upon how good the batsman is,wink

peace.

agentxxx

Peace brother Ahmed,

You wrote

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

Bro I don?t understand this point that I have underlined? Below is sura111, Kindly explain?

111 1. The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish.
111 2. His wealth and gains will not exempt him.
111 3. He will be plunged in flaming Fire,
111 4. And his wife, the wood-carrier,
111 5. Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre.

peace.

agentxxx

peace alpha97,

you wrote

I most certainly do agree with you. Very important understanding.

thanks bro D

peace.

unknownuser

Peace brother Ahmed,

You wrote

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

Bro I don?t understand this point that I have underlined? Below is sura111, Kindly explain?

111 1. The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish.
111 2. His wealth and gains will not exempt him.
111 3. He will be plunged in flaming Fire,
111 4. And his wife, the wood-carrier,
111 5. Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre.

peace.

Peace brother agnetxxx

Do you belive that Mohammad had an uncle called Abu Lahab?

if you do then you do you know that he was a fierce enemy to Mohammad and the message of Allah?

he was so stypid indeed, when he used to see Mohammad talking to any one, he waits untill they finish they talk to that human after mohammad leaves and ask him what mohammad told him, and alsways contradict what Momhammad said to the people, his wife too was helping him in his deception and lies

they hurt the prophet bad, and this is when sura 111 was revealed, it condemns him and promises him with hell on the JD 'Sa Yasla Narran"

now Abu Lahab was on the hunt to contradict Mohammad in any possible way even with lies and deception

he would have came easy "for 9 years" to come and say

ok Quraish, I repent to Allah and I believe in the message and that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah

this is enough to create Fitnah because it will make that whole sura a contradiction

the ironic point is, he had about 9 years to do as such "truthfully of faking it" and he never did

that is why it will be hard to believe that a human wrote this sura before his death

salam

unknownuser

Peace,

Why do people say "Abu" when the Quran mentions "Abee" Lahab? Doesn't the words also mean "father of flame"?

The surah 111 can be said about any evil person as such who had fame and wealth, thus setting a surah like it challenge, would it not?. Would that become GOD's Words then?

Lastly, here a good refutation on that verse
http//answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Prophecy/lahab.html

unknownuser

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

that part was not aimed at you as such but as much tanveermd, you know, just for the debate around the table

It all comes down to this. what do we know of Mohammads uncle that is not hearsay other than he did not belive what Mohammad belived. If there is no reliable data, we have no way of determing why he didnt do anything, and as the effect of his actions (part of the evidence) is not visible, proveable to us. Its void as anything but some sort of analogy, but i have no idea what it means. But know this, if you feel its prophecy, I have no problem with that. I admit, i have no idea what it means, it makes no sense to me, wy its even there.

peace

unknownuser

Peace,

Hi

Why do people say "Abu" when the Quran mentions "Abee" Lahab?

That is due to something that is complicated in the Arabic grammar, there is something called the Five Names, these names are ?Ab, Um, Akh, Fu, Zu?

Their meanings are

Ab -> Father
Um -> Mother
Akh -> Brother
Fu -> ?Not sure what it is but I will find out later?
Zu -> ?Owner?

When Irab is applied on these names according to their position in the sentence, sometimes they are Marfooh, Mansoob, Magroor or Maskoon

The normal vowel for Marfooh is Dummah ?oooo?

The normal vowel for Mansoob is Fatiha ?aaaaa?

The normal vowel for Magroor is Kasrah ?eeee?

There is no vowel for Maskoon

With Some of these five names we can?t apply these vowel on it rather adding an additional letter at the end or change the last letter to express the vowels, i.e.

Instead of a Dummah for ?oooo?, Ab will become Abu, by adding a Waw at the end

Instead of a Fatiha for ?aaaa?, Ab will become Aba, by adding an Alif at the end

Instead of a Kasrah for ?eeee?, Ab will become Abe, by adding a Ya at the end

In the case in sura 111, the Irab for Ab must make it have a Kasrah hence it became Abe or Abee if you like to put it this way, this proves that the Quran can?t be the work of man actually

In the way I said it in my comment ?Abu?, it actually had to be Marfooh with a Dummah, but I know I can?t put a Dummah on Ab, therefore I said it Abu with a WAW

Did you get it mister Danish?

Here is an example from the Quran for Ab with a WAW. ?Abuna?, please note the ?na? means ?our?, in the following verse and according according to the grammar Ab has to be Marfooh and that is why Allah put it with a WAW

And when he came to the water of Madyan, he found on it a group of men watering, and he found besides them two women keeping back (their flocks). He said What is the matter with you? They said We cannot water until the shepherds take away (their sheep) from the water, and our father is a very old man.

(23)

-> ? ?, ?Our Father?, and must be Marfooh with a WAW according to the grammar rules,

Here is another Quran example with Ab that must be Magroor with a Ya, and Ab that must be Mansoob with an Alif , and both are in the same very verse

So when they returned to their father, they said O our father, the measure is withheld from us, therefore send with us our brother, (so that) we may get the measure, and we will most surely guard him.

(63)

-> ? ?, ?Their Father?, and must be Magroor with a YA according to the Grammar rules, i.e. Abee or Abe

-> ??, ?Our Father?, and must be Mansoob with an ALIF according to the Grammar rules, i.e. Aba or Abaa

Abee in sura 111 must be Magroor with a Ya

Subhana Allah indeed, this Quran can't be the work of a human

Doesn't the words also mean "father of flame"?

It does literally, but the context clearly tells us that it is a name of a person, this is very known in the arab culture that they call each other as the father of something, even if that thing is not a real son, rather something that indicate a good thing or even a bad thing in the case of Abe Lahab (it must be Magroor in here), lol, the fire meant that he was a strong man within his society

The surah 111 can be said about any evil person as such who had fame and wealth, thus setting a surah like it challenge, would it not?. Would that become GOD's Words then?

Here is what the common sense should tell us

If we take sura 111 as a metaphor of an evil person that never existed, then please tell me why the wife of that evil person must be condemned as well?

Sure an eveil guy may be married to a good woman and vice verse, here is an example from the Quran

10-Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said Enter both the fire with those who enter.

11- And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon when she said My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the garden and deliver me from Firon and his doing, and deliver me from the unjust people

(10)
(11)

YOU HAVE NO POINT MISTER DANISH

Lastly, here a good refutation on that verse
http//answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Prophecy/lahab.html

How many times I have to tell you this bro?

Ok here is one more time

I?m not interested in used by dates links you post for me to go there and read it, you want to debate me, we have to do it the way I explained before

Salam

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Once again, thank you for your wonderful detailed explanation.

Now, let me ask you this
Were grammatical implications apparent at the time the "original" Quran was compiled or oral sayings of Muhammad? In other words, if Muhammad said "Abu" (as the name implies), then why did MEN change it to "Abee" to become grammatically correct over alleged "GOD'S Words" whether it fits the grammatical connotations or not? Who is superior, the man-made grammar that got invented hundreds of years AFTER Muhammad died and as recent as today OR the way the original names/sayings/messages were spelled out.

Is grammar above "GOD'S Words" or was GOD not capable of saying Abu instead of Abee regardless of grammatical implications, if the real name was Abu or was it really Abee?

Who invented and provoked the rules of grammar on "GOD's Words" to bring about the Quran as we see it today and why?

Lastly, have you seen and witnessed the "original" copies of Quran (biased) as written by scribes of their times displayed in the museums? If so, what grammatical rules applied then, if any, makes you 100% sure of grammatical rules applied after (hundreds of years later) or today becomes 100% GOD's Words either way, yet we find the difference in Abu and Abee? So was it GOD who changed the name pronounced from Abu to Abee or was it the invention of man-made grammar? Again, who is superior and why?

The Tashkent Quran (Uzbekistan)
The Topkapi Quran (Turkey)
The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript. (Egypt)

agentxxx

peace danish,

]The Tashkent Quran (Uzbekistan)
The Topkapi Quran (Turkey)
The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript. (Egypt)

thankyou for the links brother

peace.

oneway

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

I understand this point fully. But do you understand that i could easily point out 20 people i know wouldnt repent anything, even if their life depended on it.

For an evidence to be valid, we have to be able to confirm the outcome. If we cant, its not evidence. And as prophecy, this is weak at best.

peace

Hello

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

another point is, you can say that i will die kafir, but how you can gurantte that i will die as such if I still have 9 years to live for argument sake?

see, if I managed to believe within these 9 years then your prophecy is proven wrong,

imagine now that I hate you too, I can easily fake my believe to prove you wrong in front of everyone, i won't care about what is after death then

Salam

Peace, Ahmed,

As I understand it, your explanation goes like this

Person X (Mohammed's uncle) disagrees with Person Y (Mohammed)
Y predicts that X will die and go to hell unless X apologizes and proclaims agreement with Y
X dies without ever apologizing or proclaiming agreement with Y
Y and/or Y's followers say, "See, the prediction came true!"

Yet

No one can prove X went to hell
Everyone eventually dies

So nothing is proved.

Further, the following line of reasoning is not logical

"X could have easily caused the prediction to fail by falsely proclaiming agreement with Y, but X did not do so. Therefore, Y's prediction came true."

That reasoning assumes that X would be so motivated to prove Y's "prophecy" wrong that he would claim to have done the very thing he least wants to do Agree with Y.

That is illogical and its also quite a convenient prophecy for Y! Either X reverses himself and proclaims agreement with Y, thereby publicly endorsing Y's position, or X dies and Y can say the prophecy was fulfilled because X is in hell, which cannot be proven but will be believed by Y's followers who will give Y the benefit of the doubt.

You see, Y wins (at least in the eyes of his followers) either way

If X says he changed his mind and now agrees with Y, Y would just say the prophecy was still fulfilled because now X went to heaven when he died and X's prior arguments against Y are discounted. (X can't tell anyone he was lying about his reversal or we're right back where we started.)
If X doesn't change his ways, Y can wait 'til he dies and say the prophecy is fulfilled because X went to hell.

That would be like a Christian saying

"Unless Ahmed proclaims his conversion to Christianity and agrees completely with me, he will die and go to hell."

Well, you're not going to tell everyone you've converted to Christianity before you die just to prove that prediction wrong are you? Of course not.

If I've misunderstood the prediction or your explanation thereof please correct me, but it doesn't seem to be a prophecy at all to me. If anything, it suggests that Mohammed himself inserted this bit into the Quran to discredit his uncle with whom he had an ongoing feud.

Regards,
oneway

unknownuser

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

I understand this point fully. But do you understand that i could easily point out 20 people i know wouldnt repent anything, even if their life depended on it.

For an evidence to be valid, we have to be able to confirm the outcome. If we cant, its not evidence. And as prophecy, this is weak at best.

peace

Hello

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

another point is, you can say that i will die kafir, but how you can gurantte that i will die as such if I still have 9 years to live for argument sake?

see, if I managed to believe within these 9 years then your prophecy is proven wrong,

imagine now that I hate you too, I can easily fake my believe to prove you wrong in front of everyone, i won't care about what is after death then

Salam

Peace, Ahmed,

Salam oneway

As I understand it, your explanation goes like this

Person X (Mohammed's uncle) disagrees with Person Y (Mohammed)

Yes, but not just disagreement, he and his wife were fierce enemies to Mohammad

Y predicts that X will die and go to hell unless X apologizes and proclaims agreement with Y

X didn?t predict that anyone will die (directly), neither asked for any apologies from anyone

However, what you said above is the direct aspect of it told in the Quran that we can?t know yet (Hell), but it has indirect aspect and that is what took my note, this indirect aspect is, that he will die and never believe in the message, on the other hand we know many more fierce enemies who did believed in the message

X dies without ever apologizing or proclaiming agreement with Y

yeh but that was not the indirect prophecy I?m talking about, he died without believing in Allah

Y and/or Y's followers say, "See, the prediction came true!"

Y did not do that nor his followers at the time, I?m sure this was raised in the last 20 years or so, as prior to that I was not aware of it neither I knew any muslim who knew it 20 years ago

Yet

No one can prove X went to hell

we don?t need to prove that, he died a disbeliever and that is what was proven already

Everyone eventually dies

I agree, but not eventually everyone will die a disbeliever

So nothing is proved.

excuse me mate, I believe there is a lot that was proven

Further, the following line of reasoning is not logical

"X could have easily caused the prediction to fail by falsely proclaiming agreement with Y, but X did not do so. Therefore, Y's prediction came true."

based on the known history of X, yes this should have been quite possible to have happened

That reasoning assumes that X would be so motivated to prove Y's "prophecy" wrong that he would claim to have done the very thing he least wants to do Agree with Y.

that is what X was always doing, even to fake it top cause discord between the believers, in fact X was only living to cause discord between the believers

but the point is, that Arabs were stunned by the Arabic language in the Quran that they could not challenge it at all and part of that challenge is to prove that it talks non sense

That is illogical and its also quite a convenient prophecy for Y! Either X reverses himself and proclaims agreement with Y, thereby publicly endorsing Y's position, or X dies and Y can say the prophecy was fulfilled because X is in hell, which cannot be proven but will be believed by Y's followers who will give Y the benefit of the doubt.

when 111 was revealed it was not taken as a prophecy by most arabs, it was taken as a reply to his aggressive actions agains the prophet and his followers, this prophecy thing was only discovered 20 years ago the max, and I?m sure was never talked about 1400 years ago neither 1000 years ago

You see, Y wins (at least in the eyes of his followers) either way

If X says he changed his mind and now agrees with Y, Y would just say the prophecy was still fulfilled because now X went to heaven when he died and X's prior arguments against Y are discounted. (X can't tell anyone he was lying about his reversal or we're right back where we started.)

But X may have died faking the belief, i.e. no one would have ever knew that he was faking it

If X doesn't change his ways, Y can wait 'til he dies and say the prophecy is fulfilled because X went to hell.

Y never said that neither he was waiting to for the X to die, in fact I believe that Y wanted X to believe still

That would be like a Christian saying

"Unless Ahmed proclaims his conversion to Christianity and agrees completely with me, he will die and go to hell."

Well, you're not going to tell everyone you've converted to Christianity before you die just to prove that prediction wrong are you? Of course not.

If I've misunderstood the prediction or your explanation thereof please correct me, but it doesn't seem to be a prophecy at all to me. If anything, it suggests that Mohammed himself inserted this bit into the Quran to discredit his uncle with whom he had an ongoing feud.

Regards,
oneway

Regards

oneway