Conclusive proof: THE QUR'AAN IS THE WORD OF ALLAH

unknownuser

Peace,

Why do people say "Abu" when the Quran mentions "Abee" Lahab? Doesn't the words also mean "father of flame"?

The surah 111 can be said about any evil person as such who had fame and wealth, thus setting a surah like it challenge, would it not?. Would that become GOD's Words then?

Lastly, here a good refutation on that verse
http//answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Prophecy/lahab.html

unknownuser

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

that part was not aimed at you as such but as much tanveermd, you know, just for the debate around the table

It all comes down to this. what do we know of Mohammads uncle that is not hearsay other than he did not belive what Mohammad belived. If there is no reliable data, we have no way of determing why he didnt do anything, and as the effect of his actions (part of the evidence) is not visible, proveable to us. Its void as anything but some sort of analogy, but i have no idea what it means. But know this, if you feel its prophecy, I have no problem with that. I admit, i have no idea what it means, it makes no sense to me, wy its even there.

peace

unknownuser

Peace,

Hi

Why do people say "Abu" when the Quran mentions "Abee" Lahab?

That is due to something that is complicated in the Arabic grammar, there is something called the Five Names, these names are ?Ab, Um, Akh, Fu, Zu?

Their meanings are

Ab -> Father
Um -> Mother
Akh -> Brother
Fu -> ?Not sure what it is but I will find out later?
Zu -> ?Owner?

When Irab is applied on these names according to their position in the sentence, sometimes they are Marfooh, Mansoob, Magroor or Maskoon

The normal vowel for Marfooh is Dummah ?oooo?

The normal vowel for Mansoob is Fatiha ?aaaaa?

The normal vowel for Magroor is Kasrah ?eeee?

There is no vowel for Maskoon

With Some of these five names we can?t apply these vowel on it rather adding an additional letter at the end or change the last letter to express the vowels, i.e.

Instead of a Dummah for ?oooo?, Ab will become Abu, by adding a Waw at the end

Instead of a Fatiha for ?aaaa?, Ab will become Aba, by adding an Alif at the end

Instead of a Kasrah for ?eeee?, Ab will become Abe, by adding a Ya at the end

In the case in sura 111, the Irab for Ab must make it have a Kasrah hence it became Abe or Abee if you like to put it this way, this proves that the Quran can?t be the work of man actually

In the way I said it in my comment ?Abu?, it actually had to be Marfooh with a Dummah, but I know I can?t put a Dummah on Ab, therefore I said it Abu with a WAW

Did you get it mister Danish?

Here is an example from the Quran for Ab with a WAW. ?Abuna?, please note the ?na? means ?our?, in the following verse and according according to the grammar Ab has to be Marfooh and that is why Allah put it with a WAW

And when he came to the water of Madyan, he found on it a group of men watering, and he found besides them two women keeping back (their flocks). He said What is the matter with you? They said We cannot water until the shepherds take away (their sheep) from the water, and our father is a very old man.

(23)

-> ? ?, ?Our Father?, and must be Marfooh with a WAW according to the grammar rules,

Here is another Quran example with Ab that must be Magroor with a Ya, and Ab that must be Mansoob with an Alif , and both are in the same very verse

So when they returned to their father, they said O our father, the measure is withheld from us, therefore send with us our brother, (so that) we may get the measure, and we will most surely guard him.

(63)

-> ? ?, ?Their Father?, and must be Magroor with a YA according to the Grammar rules, i.e. Abee or Abe

-> ??, ?Our Father?, and must be Mansoob with an ALIF according to the Grammar rules, i.e. Aba or Abaa

Abee in sura 111 must be Magroor with a Ya

Subhana Allah indeed, this Quran can't be the work of a human

Doesn't the words also mean "father of flame"?

It does literally, but the context clearly tells us that it is a name of a person, this is very known in the arab culture that they call each other as the father of something, even if that thing is not a real son, rather something that indicate a good thing or even a bad thing in the case of Abe Lahab (it must be Magroor in here), lol, the fire meant that he was a strong man within his society

The surah 111 can be said about any evil person as such who had fame and wealth, thus setting a surah like it challenge, would it not?. Would that become GOD's Words then?

Here is what the common sense should tell us

If we take sura 111 as a metaphor of an evil person that never existed, then please tell me why the wife of that evil person must be condemned as well?

Sure an eveil guy may be married to a good woman and vice verse, here is an example from the Quran

10-Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said Enter both the fire with those who enter.

11- And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon when she said My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the garden and deliver me from Firon and his doing, and deliver me from the unjust people

(10)
(11)

YOU HAVE NO POINT MISTER DANISH

Lastly, here a good refutation on that verse
http//answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Prophecy/lahab.html

How many times I have to tell you this bro?

Ok here is one more time

I?m not interested in used by dates links you post for me to go there and read it, you want to debate me, we have to do it the way I explained before

Salam

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Once again, thank you for your wonderful detailed explanation.

Now, let me ask you this
Were grammatical implications apparent at the time the "original" Quran was compiled or oral sayings of Muhammad? In other words, if Muhammad said "Abu" (as the name implies), then why did MEN change it to "Abee" to become grammatically correct over alleged "GOD'S Words" whether it fits the grammatical connotations or not? Who is superior, the man-made grammar that got invented hundreds of years AFTER Muhammad died and as recent as today OR the way the original names/sayings/messages were spelled out.

Is grammar above "GOD'S Words" or was GOD not capable of saying Abu instead of Abee regardless of grammatical implications, if the real name was Abu or was it really Abee?

Who invented and provoked the rules of grammar on "GOD's Words" to bring about the Quran as we see it today and why?

Lastly, have you seen and witnessed the "original" copies of Quran (biased) as written by scribes of their times displayed in the museums? If so, what grammatical rules applied then, if any, makes you 100% sure of grammatical rules applied after (hundreds of years later) or today becomes 100% GOD's Words either way, yet we find the difference in Abu and Abee? So was it GOD who changed the name pronounced from Abu to Abee or was it the invention of man-made grammar? Again, who is superior and why?

The Tashkent Quran (Uzbekistan)
The Topkapi Quran (Turkey)
The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript. (Egypt)

agentxxx

peace danish,

]The Tashkent Quran (Uzbekistan)
The Topkapi Quran (Turkey)
The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript. (Egypt)

thankyou for the links brother

peace.

oneway

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

I understand this point fully. But do you understand that i could easily point out 20 people i know wouldnt repent anything, even if their life depended on it.

For an evidence to be valid, we have to be able to confirm the outcome. If we cant, its not evidence. And as prophecy, this is weak at best.

peace

Hello

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

another point is, you can say that i will die kafir, but how you can gurantte that i will die as such if I still have 9 years to live for argument sake?

see, if I managed to believe within these 9 years then your prophecy is proven wrong,

imagine now that I hate you too, I can easily fake my believe to prove you wrong in front of everyone, i won't care about what is after death then

Salam

Peace, Ahmed,

As I understand it, your explanation goes like this

Person X (Mohammed's uncle) disagrees with Person Y (Mohammed)
Y predicts that X will die and go to hell unless X apologizes and proclaims agreement with Y
X dies without ever apologizing or proclaiming agreement with Y
Y and/or Y's followers say, "See, the prediction came true!"

Yet

No one can prove X went to hell
Everyone eventually dies

So nothing is proved.

Further, the following line of reasoning is not logical

"X could have easily caused the prediction to fail by falsely proclaiming agreement with Y, but X did not do so. Therefore, Y's prediction came true."

That reasoning assumes that X would be so motivated to prove Y's "prophecy" wrong that he would claim to have done the very thing he least wants to do Agree with Y.

That is illogical and its also quite a convenient prophecy for Y! Either X reverses himself and proclaims agreement with Y, thereby publicly endorsing Y's position, or X dies and Y can say the prophecy was fulfilled because X is in hell, which cannot be proven but will be believed by Y's followers who will give Y the benefit of the doubt.

You see, Y wins (at least in the eyes of his followers) either way

If X says he changed his mind and now agrees with Y, Y would just say the prophecy was still fulfilled because now X went to heaven when he died and X's prior arguments against Y are discounted. (X can't tell anyone he was lying about his reversal or we're right back where we started.)
If X doesn't change his ways, Y can wait 'til he dies and say the prophecy is fulfilled because X went to hell.

That would be like a Christian saying

"Unless Ahmed proclaims his conversion to Christianity and agrees completely with me, he will die and go to hell."

Well, you're not going to tell everyone you've converted to Christianity before you die just to prove that prediction wrong are you? Of course not.

If I've misunderstood the prediction or your explanation thereof please correct me, but it doesn't seem to be a prophecy at all to me. If anything, it suggests that Mohammed himself inserted this bit into the Quran to discredit his uncle with whom he had an ongoing feud.

Regards,
oneway

unknownuser

He died a kafir rejecting Allah and his message, therefore his severe punishment is earned, this verse was revealed years before he died so he had a chance to repent even by faking it to prove the Quran is wrong and he never did despite his hatred to the message

I understand this point fully. But do you understand that i could easily point out 20 people i know wouldnt repent anything, even if their life depended on it.

For an evidence to be valid, we have to be able to confirm the outcome. If we cant, its not evidence. And as prophecy, this is weak at best.

peace

Hello

I was not confirming that it is a miracle, what i did was explaining the logical aspect of it, and I'm glad you agree on that

another point is, you can say that i will die kafir, but how you can gurantte that i will die as such if I still have 9 years to live for argument sake?

see, if I managed to believe within these 9 years then your prophecy is proven wrong,

imagine now that I hate you too, I can easily fake my believe to prove you wrong in front of everyone, i won't care about what is after death then

Salam

Peace, Ahmed,

Salam oneway

As I understand it, your explanation goes like this

Person X (Mohammed's uncle) disagrees with Person Y (Mohammed)

Yes, but not just disagreement, he and his wife were fierce enemies to Mohammad

Y predicts that X will die and go to hell unless X apologizes and proclaims agreement with Y

X didn?t predict that anyone will die (directly), neither asked for any apologies from anyone

However, what you said above is the direct aspect of it told in the Quran that we can?t know yet (Hell), but it has indirect aspect and that is what took my note, this indirect aspect is, that he will die and never believe in the message, on the other hand we know many more fierce enemies who did believed in the message

X dies without ever apologizing or proclaiming agreement with Y

yeh but that was not the indirect prophecy I?m talking about, he died without believing in Allah

Y and/or Y's followers say, "See, the prediction came true!"

Y did not do that nor his followers at the time, I?m sure this was raised in the last 20 years or so, as prior to that I was not aware of it neither I knew any muslim who knew it 20 years ago

Yet

No one can prove X went to hell

we don?t need to prove that, he died a disbeliever and that is what was proven already

Everyone eventually dies

I agree, but not eventually everyone will die a disbeliever

So nothing is proved.

excuse me mate, I believe there is a lot that was proven

Further, the following line of reasoning is not logical

"X could have easily caused the prediction to fail by falsely proclaiming agreement with Y, but X did not do so. Therefore, Y's prediction came true."

based on the known history of X, yes this should have been quite possible to have happened

That reasoning assumes that X would be so motivated to prove Y's "prophecy" wrong that he would claim to have done the very thing he least wants to do Agree with Y.

that is what X was always doing, even to fake it top cause discord between the believers, in fact X was only living to cause discord between the believers

but the point is, that Arabs were stunned by the Arabic language in the Quran that they could not challenge it at all and part of that challenge is to prove that it talks non sense

That is illogical and its also quite a convenient prophecy for Y! Either X reverses himself and proclaims agreement with Y, thereby publicly endorsing Y's position, or X dies and Y can say the prophecy was fulfilled because X is in hell, which cannot be proven but will be believed by Y's followers who will give Y the benefit of the doubt.

when 111 was revealed it was not taken as a prophecy by most arabs, it was taken as a reply to his aggressive actions agains the prophet and his followers, this prophecy thing was only discovered 20 years ago the max, and I?m sure was never talked about 1400 years ago neither 1000 years ago

You see, Y wins (at least in the eyes of his followers) either way

If X says he changed his mind and now agrees with Y, Y would just say the prophecy was still fulfilled because now X went to heaven when he died and X's prior arguments against Y are discounted. (X can't tell anyone he was lying about his reversal or we're right back where we started.)

But X may have died faking the belief, i.e. no one would have ever knew that he was faking it

If X doesn't change his ways, Y can wait 'til he dies and say the prophecy is fulfilled because X went to hell.

Y never said that neither he was waiting to for the X to die, in fact I believe that Y wanted X to believe still

That would be like a Christian saying

"Unless Ahmed proclaims his conversion to Christianity and agrees completely with me, he will die and go to hell."

Well, you're not going to tell everyone you've converted to Christianity before you die just to prove that prediction wrong are you? Of course not.

If I've misunderstood the prediction or your explanation thereof please correct me, but it doesn't seem to be a prophecy at all to me. If anything, it suggests that Mohammed himself inserted this bit into the Quran to discredit his uncle with whom he had an ongoing feud.

Regards,
oneway

Regards

oneway