salvation while refusing prophethood of Mohammed possible?

Tay

Peace Myr, All,

Myr, you stated

Let me say this Atheist or not, if the core foundation is not here, that is, believing in HIM and all HIS messengers, and all HIS books, etc... as per the Quran itself, you are not going anywhere.

At first glance, this sounds noble. However, there are some major problems in reality. First of all, what are "all his books"? Do you have copies? Can we confirm these even exist?

Second, how many messengers were there that we must believe in? Do you know all their names? Do you know what they were like as people?

I'm afraid it is traditional or other influence that has forced many into this dogmatic approach with little or no real substance behind it. This, in turn, leads people away from digging a little deeper and uncovering the simple truth. That truth is that there is certainly a perrenial philosophy that spans all teachings, all books, all messages. It is not hard to uncover, and the Qur'an spells it out quite often.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Salam Tay, all,

Peace Myr, All,

Myr, you stated

Let me say this Atheist or not, if the core foundation is not here, that is, believing in HIM and all HIS messengers, and all HIS books, etc... as per the Quran itself, you are not going anywhere.

At first glance, this sounds noble. However, there are some major problems in reality. First of all, what are "all his books"? Do you have copies? Can we confirm these even exist?

Second, how many messengers were there that we must believe in? Do you know all their names? Do you know what they were like as people?

I'm afraid it is traditional or other influence that has forced many into this dogmatic approach with little or no real substance behind it. This, in turn, leads people away from digging a little deeper and uncovering the simple truth. That truth is that there is certainly a perrenial philosophy that spans all teachings, all books, all messages. It is not hard to uncover, and the Qur'an spells it out quite often.

Peace,
Tay

Here we go again with this dogma and "traditional influence"!!!-) -) ok, so let's digg deeper in the Quran-)

Please read verses 2285, 3179 and 4143. Now tell me why do you want to know the number of messengers when Quran clearly states in 4164 that we narrated to you about some messengers and some others we did not narrate? does it mean because you don't know their name they did not exist or their mission should be denied? now did God the All-Mighty ask the believers in verse 2285 to believe in things they know only or also things they don't know? What is believing in the unseen (guayb)? what is then the meaning of verse 5725 if we have to know all the names of the messengers and their books and by the same token all the angels (since we have also to believe in them), and the last day etc..?
Now why do you need to have all the copies of the books? what is then the meaning of verse 4143?
We believe in all HIS messengers because that's God's decree and truthl HE sends a messenger for every nation/group and therefore it is our duty to acknowledge this mission. We believe in all the books because that's God's decree and truth, HIS message and signs reach every and each nation and it is our duty to acknowledge that.
One last thing do you believe only in what you see/know? Please reflect on the verses above among many other verses in Quran and you will make sense inchallah of 2285 and the belief in the unseen.

Peace. Myr.

Tay

Peace Myr,

Here we go again with this dogma and "traditional influence"!!!

Indeed.

ok, so let's digg deeper in the Quran-)

OK

Please read verses 2285, 3179 and 4143. Now tell me why do you want to know the number of messengers when Quran clearly states in 4164 that we narrated to you about some messengers and some others we did not narrate?

I don't want to know the number of messengers. It seems it is you who has taken this literal stance and are hence without substance if you cannot back it up.

Here's what you said. Please correct me if I misunderstood

Atheist or not, if the core foundation is not here, that is, believing in HIM and all HIS messengers, and all HIS books, etc... as per the Quran itself, you are not going anywhere.

Tell me, how do you believe in all of Allah's books if you cannot even name them? How can you believe in all of Allah's messengers if you don't know who they are? This is not about believing/disbelieving in the unseen. It is about taking the text at face value and not looking into the essence of what is being taught to us.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but that's how I see it.

what is then the meaning of verse 5725 if we have to know all the names of the messengers and their books...

5725 is telling us to support God's system even if we cannot see the results immediately. That's why the example of iron is used. It is a symbol of strength once it is accumulated and forged into something. "and We descended the iron, in it (is) strong (severe) power/might , and benefits/uses for the people"

and by the same token all the angels (since we have also to believe in them), and the last day etc..?

The angels are unseen, but not unverifiable.

Ponder this
711 We created you, then shaped you, then told the angels, "Be of service to Adam! And they agreed to be of service, all but Iblis (Satan). He was not of the subservient.

How do the angels serve you?

4130 But, behold, as for those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and then remain steadfastly upright ? upon them descend angels, saying, "Fear not, and grieve not, but hear good news of the Paradise that you are promised.

Have you ever heard of anyone hearing angels say these words to them?

Perhaps there is a deeper meaning? Perhaps angels are the good emotions we feel when we're on the right track, reminding us that we're on the path to Paradise, serving us by reinforcing the good.

As for the last day, isn't it obvious? Do you know of anyone who is immortal? Are there any immortal creatures on this planet? I presume the answer is no. All life is in a state of decay. The last day is the culmination, the inevitable end.

What is believing in the unseen (guayb)?

Can you see God? Emotions? Gravity? Wind? Thoughts? No, you cannot. But you can verify these concepts, either within yourself or via their direct effect on things that are seen.

Now why do you need to have all the copies of the books?

Because you say I have to believe in ALL of them. If I don't know which ones they are, how can I believe in them? I'd be lying to myself. Again, you're missing the deeper meaning. What is being told to us is that God never left a people without guidance. We're being asked to believe that everyone on this earth since the beginning of time had some form of guidance. Why is this important?

Because if you don't believe this, then you would be believing that God left some people with no chance of succeeding in life and graduating into the afterlife. This would mean that God is unfair. Can you see the importance?

In direct contrast, you would have me blindly believe that books existed of which I have no knowledge. What does this do for my spiritual growth?

We believe in all HIS messengers because that's God's decree and truth. HE sends a messenger for every nation/group and therefore it is our duty to acknowledge this mission.

Yes, the mission, not the people. I hope you see the difference now.

We believe in all the books because that's God's decree and truth, HIS message and signs reach every and each nation and it is our duty to acknowledge that.

Yes, the message, not the books.

One last thing do you believe only in what you see/know?

I believe only what is verifiable, per 1736.

Please reflect on the verses above among many other verses in Quran and you will make sense inchallah of 2285 and the belief in the unseen.

Thanks, sis. I have and I've enjoyed every moment, Alhamdulillah.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

arnoldyasin

Peace all,

I believe myself that it depends on your level of understanding. What i understood of the Quran, is that the people who KNEW it was from God and then still rejected it are the ones condemned. In the times of the first muslims, there were a lot of Jews and Christians who believed Muhammed to be a real prophet, but remained Christian or Jew, as is also allowed in the Quran. There were in those times a lot of Rabbis and Priests who advised the first Muslims rulers in handling their people. I believe myself it has to do more not with acceptance of Muhammed, but with allowing an open mind. Rejecting the Quran is mostly rejecting an open mind.

If we look carefully heaven and hell are allegories for heavenly thinking and hell-thinking. There is as much heaven and hell in this life as in the afterlife. So it applies more that if you don't allow yourself to be openminded about the Quran, then you will never benefit from the important truths it contains, and by thus you condemn yourself to live in the hell of conjecture and lies. So accepting Muhammed has nothing to do with that otherwise God will punish you, you will punish yourself by never tasting the truths the Quran contains. This is what is meant by heaven or hell, truths or lies. Accepting all the previous messengers is not about accepting their messages, it is about accepting the truth about history and the true core of certain teachings. To accept that people changed the original teachings. So again this has to do with liberating yourself from a lie, from a 'hell'. Thinking that what we now see as the 'teachings' of Buddha or Jesus and so on are really 100% their teachings, are lies, and will stop you of understanding the truths about history.

So accepting Muhammed and the Quran has to do with escaping the 'hell'of lies, not with if God will punish you. That is why it is important, accepting the Quran, is allowing yourself to free yourself from the lies that burn your understanding, and enter the heaven of thruths that will produce thinking like rivers of milk.

Peace

Leyla

Peace

myr If "inspiration has hit him"??? Is there a verse in Quran that says all the disbelievers were first hit by inspiration but still rejected the message and that's why they are considered disbelievers??

Personally I am quite allergic to the use of the word disbelievers in this context.
A phrase similar to this does appear in the qur'?n. We hear about those who l? yu'min?n. We also hear that actually most of humanity are part of those.
But these are not necessarily totally equated with al kafir?n or alladh?na kafar?.

The whole concept of al kafir?n, according to its meaning, requires the idea of a rejection of something that came to you. Or hit you, whatever.
Kafara means to reject, to not be thankful. It does not mean to not believe.
To reject something, to be not thankful of it you need to have experienced it.

Also consider the many verses that say that Allah never punishes a community before a messenger came to it.

Bye,

Leyla

mquran

I'd like to add to Leyla's above reply by mentioning 10/76, 28/48 and 43/29 which mention the phrase 'jaa'hum AL-HAQQ'. 43/29 also mentions the 'rasulun mubiin'/clarifying messenger.

Just because someone preached to a person who subsequently rejects his preaching, this doesn't make that person an al-kafir. This is simply because, we don't know if the preacher himself was delivering 'al-haqq' or just simply haqq. If I was a skillful philosopher and sunnis brought me al-quraan, I don't think God will punish me for rejecting their arguments,

unknownuser

Peace arnoldyasin and mquran. Arnoldyasin,i agree with a lot of your insightful post...Shouldnt we also see that the quranic message has also been distorted,and that we have to verify which parts are the truth and which are not?
Mquran;I agree with the fact that rejecting a persons message of quran is not itself rejection if that person delivering the quran gives a biased understanding or fails to convey an appropriate message to the listener...Rejection is when you know that a message/idea/deed is true, and yet you do not want to follow it at all.
Peace all.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Sorry for jumping in late but here is my response to the original question.

Do you think that someone who does not believe that Mohammed (s.a.v) is a prophet can still attain salvation ?

Do you mean my cousin Muhammad? He never claimed to be one who intuits The God's message(nabi). If you are refering to the UNVERIFIED CLAIM of a man 1400 years ago, then I am afraid that the God told us not to go after that which we have no knowledge of.

Also please consider the verse where teh God says that there are messengers he has told you about and others we were never told about. So the answer is that when you hear and obey the TRUTH, you AUTOMATICALLY by DEFAULT are obeying the messengers who were all sent with the VERY SAME MESSAGE of righteousness, not commandments written on stones and so forth. And this is a continuing process, not something confined to the past.

unknownuser

Salam mquran, all,

.... If I was a skillful philosopher and sunnis brought me al-quraan, I don't think God will punish me for rejecting their arguments,

Yup! your statement above reminds me the verse on those disbelievers who have been warned but yet they said, "and IF we are brought back to God, we will find better fate"-) A lot of people are so confident about themselves and how God will juge them! that I wonder why the prophets themselves were not so sure what it will happen to them on the J-day as per the Quran-).

I just find it sad that you too are obssessed with the sunnis. A lot of members here are not capable of carrying any debate without labelling or referring to others by names. It is not a healthful debate if you keep this rethoric of sunnis, shias, tradition followers etc... you are only perpetuating what has clearly been condemned in Quran, that is, insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the Quran.

Peace.Myr

Peace.Myr.

mquran

Myr Yup! your statement above reminds me the verse on those disbelievers who have been warned but yet they said, "and IF we are brought back to God, we will find better fate" A lot of people are so confident about themselves and how God will juge them! that I wonder why the prophets themselves were not so sure what it will happen to them on the J-day as per the Quran-).

If you notice, I used the word 'think'. The word 'think' (contextually equating to 'guess' or 'speculate') denotes a LACK of assurance.

I am confident however in al-quraan. Through al-quraan, I see that those who are judged have been brought al-haqq. Since I don't know your uncle nor can I ever know what's in his heart, I cannot make such a pronouncement.

You on the other hand ARE very confident in yourSELF because you feel your explanations of al-quraan are enough that if one rejects them after receiving them, they are condemned.

just find it sad that you too are obssessed with the sunnis. A lot of members here are not capable of carrying any debate without labelling or referring to others by names. It is not a healthful debate if you keep this rethoric of sunnis, shias, tradition followers etc... you are only perpetuating what has clearly been condemned in Quran, that is, insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the Quran.

Obsessed ? By mentioning them here I become obsessed ? Rather strange.

I used the sunnis because i've conducted thought experiments which pitted sunni propagation methods against philosophical tools. I found that philosophy consistently smashes the falsehood of sunni propositions.

As for 'insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the quraan', i suggest you adopt a quranic criteria to ascertain who actually believes in the quran. Claiming to believe in the quran holds no currency with Allah. It doesn't matter what label you adopt, if you fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, you're not a 'believer' (4/65)

unknownuser

Salam Kyle, all,

Peace be upon you,

Sorry for jumping in late but here is my response to the original question.

Do you think that someone who does not believe that Mohammed (s.a.v) is a prophet can still attain salvation ?

Do you mean my cousin Muhammad? He never claimed to be one who intuits The God's message(nabi). If you are refering to the UNVERIFIED CLAIM of a man 1400 years ago, then I am afraid that the God told us not to go after that which we have no knowledge of.

Also please consider the verse where teh God says that there are messengers he has told you about and others we were never told about. So the answer is that when you hear and obey the TRUTH, you AUTOMATICALLY by DEFAULT are obeying the messengers who were all sent with the VERY SAME MESSAGE of righteousness, not commandments written on stones and so forth. And this is a continuing process, not something confined to the past.

NO need to be sarcastic Kyle, please re-read the messages to see that we are not talking about following the man as such but about the man mission to bring the Quran. If you don't believe in the Quran, the logic that follows is you don't believe that Mohamed was a prophet and messenger and verse 2285 is clear on the messengers but some would have a entire philosophy to prove there is no need to believe in all the messengers, known and unknown.
I mentioned your verse above in my first message and made comments as to why we should believe in all the messengers and the books even if we did not meet them in person or had the books in front of us and the logic for this belief is also repeated in your message above, therefore if Quran is denied, the messenger is denied and "automatically" it is denying the truth. Some would disagree with this logic and would like to see all the books and the messengers in front of them-) so what can I say? only Peace and Godbless. Peace. Myr.

mquran

NO need to be sarcastic Kyle, please re-read the messages to see that we are not talking about following the man as such but about the man mission to bring the Quran. If you don't believe in the Quran, the logic that follows is you don't believe that Mohamed was a prophet and messenger and verse 2285 is clear on the messengers but some would have a entire philosophy to prove there is no need to believe in all the messengers, known and unknown.
I mentioned your verse above in my first message and made comments as to why we should believe in all the messengers and the books even if we did not meet them in person or had the books in front of us and the logic for this belief is also repeated in your message above, therefore if Quran is denied, the messenger is denied and "automatically" it is denying the truth. Some would disagree with this logic and would like to see all the books and the messengers in front of them-) so what can I say? only Peace and Godbless. Peace. Myr.

I believe in al-quraan because of its constant consistency with the signs in my horizon and in my soul (41/53). I don't know if it was revealed to Muhammad ibn Abdullah but that's historically correct. It doesn't make it relevant in the least though. I believe in the personalities of al-quraan because their sunan are observable now, in my life and not from some history book.

Al-quraan is a science of being, not a historical text.

Kyle , you got a cousin named Muhammed ? Don't let the 'muslims' catch him calling himself 'moe', that's blasphemous to them!

unknownuser

Peace mquran. You stated that sister myr was very confident in herself because you felt that she felt her explanations of quran were sufficient to condemn a person who received her explanations yet rejected them...You then finished your post by saying 'if you fail to judge by what allah has revealed,youre not a believer'. (from your subjective,confident opinion of 4;65. ! ) You made the exact same mistake that you accused sister myr off. (over-confidence in your own opinions.)... Its seems that self-proclaimed dogmas and double standards rule. D shock idea
Peace all.

unknownuser

Salam Tay, all,

Tay wrote...I don't want to know the number of messengers. It seems it is you who has taken this literal stance and are hence without substance if you cannot back it up.<<<<

Sorry dear, I thought you were the one who asked if I knew all the messengers and the books since I believe in all of them. My substance is the Quran. I believe in anything the Quran says. If the Quran says the believers are the one who believe in all the messengers, I believe in all of them, I do not need to know them all by name or to know their books but I believe they existed and they received the revelation with the same wisdom in Quran as I believe in Noah's floods as I believe in Loth's city destruction ect...., I don't need a proof, Quran is sufficient for me. What is wrong with that?

Tay wrote....Tell me, how do you believe in all of Allah's books if you cannot even name them? How can you believe in all of Allah's messengers if you don't know who they are? This is not about believing/disbelieving in the unseen. It is about taking the text at face value and not looking into the essence of what is being taught to us.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but that's how I see it.<<<<

Why would the above offend me? you are entitled to your own understanding and that's fine with me. Where we differ is you need tangeable proofs and names, while I don't need. I believe in anything and everything the Quran mentions. Nobody knows who is the wise man who met MOses, his name is not mentioned, would this matter to me? no, it does not matter, because I believe he existed and was sent to convey a deep sense of what is wisdom.

Tay wrote...5725 is telling us to support God's system even if we cannot see the results immediately. That's why the example of iron is used. It is a symbol of strength once it is accumulated and forged into something. "and We descended the iron, in it (is) strong (severe) power/might , and benefits/uses for the people"<<<

That was not the point. I wanted you to focus on the last part of this verse and make sense of what is believing in God and russoulihi (plural or rassoul ; messengers) in the unseen.

Tay wrote...The angels are unseen, but not unverifiable.

......Perhaps there is a deeper meaning? Perhaps angels are the good emotions we feel when we're on the right track, reminding us that we're on the path to Paradise, serving us by reinforcing the good.

As for the last day, isn't it obvious? Do you know of anyone who is immortal? Are there any immortal creatures on this planet? I presume the answer is no. All life is in a state of decay. The last day is the culmination, the inevitable end.<<<<<

Interesting this concept of "unverifiable" but with a "perhaps"-) plus hmmmm... I need to know all the books and the messengers to believe in them but on the other hand it is "obvious" that the last day is the culmination???? is this a way to verify??? does not sound too consistent -)

Tay wrote...Because you say I have to believe in ALL of them. If I don't know which ones they are, how can I believe in them? I'd be lying to myself. Again, you're missing the deeper meaning. What is being told to us is that God never left a people without guidance. We're being asked to believe that everyone on this earth since the beginning of time had some form of guidance. Why is this important?<<<<

That's fine Tay, take it easy.

Tay wrote...Because if you don't believe this, then you would be believing that God left some people with no chance of succeeding in life and graduating into the afterlife. This would mean that God is unfair. Can you see the importance?

I have never said that. I thought we were debating the belief in what came in the Quran and not speculation.

Tay wrote....In direct contrast, you would have me blindly believe that books existed of which I have no knowledge. What does this do for my spiritual growth?<<

I think you misunderstood the whole point here despite my explanation that you quoted below. That's fine with me Tay, inchallah you will find the spiritual growth. Peace. Myr.

We believe in all HIS messengers because that's God's decree and truth. HE sends a messenger for every nation/group and therefore it is our duty to acknowledge this mission.

Yes, the mission, not the people. I hope you see the difference now.

We believe in all the books because that's God's decree and truth, HIS message and signs reach every and each nation and it is our duty to acknowledge that.

Yes, the message, not the books.

One last thing do you believe only in what you see/know?

I believe only what is verifiable, per 1736.

Please reflect on the verses above among many other verses in Quran and you will make sense inchallah of 2285 and the belief in the unseen.

Thanks, sis. I have and I've enjoyed every moment, Alhamdulillah.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

mquran

EnquirerPeace mquran. You stated that sister myr was very confident in herself because you felt that she felt her explanations of quran were sufficient to condemn a person who received her explanation...You then finished your post by saying 'if you fail to judge by what allah has revealed,youre not a believer'. You made the exact same mistake that you accused sister myr of... Its seems that self-proclaimed dogmas and double standards rule.

Enquirer, if you would kindly take the time to read carefully, you would have noticed the difference. I will explain step by step for you

Myr My uncle didnt accept the Quran despite my preaching of al-quraan to him.

MQ (as quoted verbatim) As for 'insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the quraan', i suggest you adopt a quranic criteria to ascertain who actually believes in the quran. Claiming to believe in the quran holds no currency with Allah. It doesn't matter what label you adopt, if you fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, you're not a 'believer' (4/65)

If you can please point where my statement

judges a particular person outside quranic boundaries
contradicts al-quraan

i'd be happy to rescind and correct myself. Crying out 'self-proclaimed dogma' does not an argument make, Enquirer.

My statement doesn't point to a single person based on his label. I know Sunnis who satisfy the Quranic criteria of mumin and I know Quraniyeen who take the Quran for anachronistic foolishness. What I AM postulating is a repetition of what al-quraan says. If you don't accept this postulation, that's nothing to do with me. Myr however is judging a known person based on the rejection of her preaching of him. This person has thus (to the limit of Myr's exposition of him) has not shown such behaviour.

unknownuser

Peace mquran. To be honest there is little difference between what you have both said...At the end of the day its both your opinions based on your understandings of the quran which condemns people. Your assertion contradicts quran because the christians and jews can use their own books which supposedly contain the 'hukm' of allah,so they can 'judge' by what allah reveals using the torah or injeel according to the quran. In this way christians and jews are not condemned nor are people who do not judge by the quran.(2;62 and 5;69.) So if you believe a believer can only judge with the quran then you are also outside of quranic boundaries in your opinion. You are also making a big assumption about myr,as i suspect she knows her uncle much,much better than you.(though i dont have an opinion on what his belief is,as i dont know him.) Dont you think you are being a little over-confident in your postulation that you are 'just repeating the quran/allahs pronouncements'? Have you ever considered your opinions may be way off base or at least incorrect?
Peace all.

mquran

Peace mquran. To be honest there is little difference between what you have both said...

Strange. I've punctuated my discourse with al-quraan and in this case, Myr hasn't. Therefore, I take it you consider al-quraan as weightless.

At the end of the day its both your opinions based on your understandings of the quran which condemns people. Your assertion contradicts quran because the christians and jews can use their own books which supposedly contain the 'hukm' of allah,so they can 'judge' by what allah reveals using the torah or injeel according to the quran.

Own books ? Please do some research.

In this way christians and jews are not condemned nor are people who do not judge by the quran.(2;62 and 5;69.) So if you believe a believer can only judge with the quran then you are also outside of quranic boundaries in your opinion.

Please do some research about the opinions regarding 'an-nasaara' and 'al-yahood' and 'alladhina haadu'.

You are also making a big assumption about myr,as i suspect she knows her uncle much,much better than you.(though i dont have an opinion on what his belief is,as i dont know him.) Dont you think you are being a little over-confident in your postulation that you are 'just repeating the quran/allahs pronouncements'?

Sigh..for the last time before I leave you in peace

Myr has an uncle.

Her uncle is Christian.

Despite her sincere attempts, the uncle did not accept al-quraan.

Myr says He rejects al-quraan

MQ says He rejects YOUR PREACHING of al-quraan.

Al-quraan is alhaqq. Allah is al-haqq. Myr's preaching, my preaching your preaching can only mediate al-haqq. Whether her uncle has encountered al-haqq or not is not for us to know. As long as he doesn't act like what AL-QURAAN says a kafir is, he's not a kafir.

Have you ever considered your opinions may be way off base or at least incorrect?

Of course, all the time. However, I ask for always one thing QURANIC EVIDENCE. Slogans like 'self-proclaimed dogma' isn't evidence to me.

Thanks for your time. I'll stop here unless you'd like to further the discussion based on al-quraan.

unknownuser