salvation while refusing prophethood of Mohammed possible?
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Salam mquran, all,
.... If I was a skillful philosopher and sunnis brought me al-quraan, I don't think God will punish me for rejecting their arguments,
Yup! your statement above reminds me the verse on those disbelievers who have been warned but yet they said, "and IF we are brought back to God, we will find better fate"-) A lot of people are so confident about themselves and how God will juge them! that I wonder why the prophets themselves were not so sure what it will happen to them on the J-day as per the Quran-).
I just find it sad that you too are obssessed with the sunnis. A lot of members here are not capable of carrying any debate without labelling or referring to others by names. It is not a healthful debate if you keep this rethoric of sunnis, shias, tradition followers etc... you are only perpetuating what has clearly been condemned in Quran, that is, insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the Quran.
Peace.Myr
Peace.Myr.
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Myr Yup! your statement above reminds me the verse on those disbelievers who have been warned but yet they said, "and IF we are brought back to God, we will find better fate" A lot of people are so confident about themselves and how God will juge them! that I wonder why the prophets themselves were not so sure what it will happen to them on the J-day as per the Quran-).
If you notice, I used the word 'think'. The word 'think' (contextually equating to 'guess' or 'speculate') denotes a LACK of assurance.
I am confident however in al-quraan. Through al-quraan, I see that those who are judged have been brought al-haqq. Since I don't know your uncle nor can I ever know what's in his heart, I cannot make such a pronouncement.
You on the other hand ARE very confident in yourSELF because you feel your explanations of al-quraan are enough that if one rejects them after receiving them, they are condemned.
just find it sad that you too are obssessed with the sunnis. A lot of members here are not capable of carrying any debate without labelling or referring to others by names. It is not a healthful debate if you keep this rethoric of sunnis, shias, tradition followers etc... you are only perpetuating what has clearly been condemned in Quran, that is, insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the Quran.
Obsessed ? By mentioning them here I become obsessed ? Rather strange.
I used the sunnis because i've conducted thought experiments which pitted sunni propagation methods against philosophical tools. I found that philosophy consistently smashes the falsehood of sunni propositions.
As for 'insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the quraan', i suggest you adopt a quranic criteria to ascertain who actually believes in the quran. Claiming to believe in the quran holds no currency with Allah. It doesn't matter what label you adopt, if you fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, you're not a 'believer' (4/65)
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Salam Kyle, all,
Peace be upon you,
Sorry for jumping in late but here is my response to the original question.
Do you think that someone who does not believe that Mohammed (s.a.v) is a prophet can still attain salvation ?
Do you mean my cousin Muhammad? He never claimed to be one who intuits The God's message(nabi). If you are refering to the UNVERIFIED CLAIM of a man 1400 years ago, then I am afraid that the God told us not to go after that which we have no knowledge of.
Also please consider the verse where teh God says that there are messengers he has told you about and others we were never told about. So the answer is that when you hear and obey the TRUTH, you AUTOMATICALLY by DEFAULT are obeying the messengers who were all sent with the VERY SAME MESSAGE of righteousness, not commandments written on stones and so forth. And this is a continuing process, not something confined to the past.
NO need to be sarcastic Kyle, please re-read the messages to see that we are not talking about following the man as such but about the man mission to bring the Quran. If you don't believe in the Quran, the logic that follows is you don't believe that Mohamed was a prophet and messenger and verse 2285 is clear on the messengers but some would have a entire philosophy to prove there is no need to believe in all the messengers, known and unknown.
I mentioned your verse above in my first message and made comments as to why we should believe in all the messengers and the books even if we did not meet them in person or had the books in front of us and the logic for this belief is also repeated in your message above, therefore if Quran is denied, the messenger is denied and "automatically" it is denying the truth. Some would disagree with this logic and would like to see all the books and the messengers in front of them-) so what can I say? only Peace and Godbless. Peace. Myr. -
NO need to be sarcastic Kyle, please re-read the messages to see that we are not talking about following the man as such but about the man mission to bring the Quran. If you don't believe in the Quran, the logic that follows is you don't believe that Mohamed was a prophet and messenger and verse 2285 is clear on the messengers but some would have a entire philosophy to prove there is no need to believe in all the messengers, known and unknown.
I mentioned your verse above in my first message and made comments as to why we should believe in all the messengers and the books even if we did not meet them in person or had the books in front of us and the logic for this belief is also repeated in your message above, therefore if Quran is denied, the messenger is denied and "automatically" it is denying the truth. Some would disagree with this logic and would like to see all the books and the messengers in front of them-) so what can I say? only Peace and Godbless. Peace. Myr.I believe in al-quraan because of its constant consistency with the signs in my horizon and in my soul (41/53). I don't know if it was revealed to Muhammad ibn Abdullah but that's historically correct. It doesn't make it relevant in the least though. I believe in the personalities of al-quraan because their sunan are observable now, in my life and not from some history book.
Al-quraan is a science of being, not a historical text.
Kyle , you got a cousin named Muhammed ? Don't let the 'muslims' catch him calling himself 'moe', that's blasphemous to them!
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Peace mquran. You stated that sister myr was very confident in herself because you felt that she felt her explanations of quran were sufficient to condemn a person who received her explanations yet rejected them...You then finished your post by saying 'if you fail to judge by what allah has revealed,youre not a believer'. (from your subjective,confident opinion of 4;65. ! ) You made the exact same mistake that you accused sister myr off. (over-confidence in your own opinions.)... Its seems that self-proclaimed dogmas and double standards rule. D shock idea
Peace all. -
Salam Tay, all,
Tay wrote...I don't want to know the number of messengers. It seems it is you who has taken this literal stance and are hence without substance if you cannot back it up.<<<<
Sorry dear, I thought you were the one who asked if I knew all the messengers and the books since I believe in all of them. My substance is the Quran. I believe in anything the Quran says. If the Quran says the believers are the one who believe in all the messengers, I believe in all of them, I do not need to know them all by name or to know their books but I believe they existed and they received the revelation with the same wisdom in Quran as I believe in Noah's floods as I believe in Loth's city destruction ect...., I don't need a proof, Quran is sufficient for me. What is wrong with that?
Tay wrote....Tell me, how do you believe in all of Allah's books if you cannot even name them? How can you believe in all of Allah's messengers if you don't know who they are? This is not about believing/disbelieving in the unseen. It is about taking the text at face value and not looking into the essence of what is being taught to us.
I'm sorry if this offends you, but that's how I see it.<<<<
Why would the above offend me? you are entitled to your own understanding and that's fine with me. Where we differ is you need tangeable proofs and names, while I don't need. I believe in anything and everything the Quran mentions. Nobody knows who is the wise man who met MOses, his name is not mentioned, would this matter to me? no, it does not matter, because I believe he existed and was sent to convey a deep sense of what is wisdom.
Tay wrote...5725 is telling us to support God's system even if we cannot see the results immediately. That's why the example of iron is used. It is a symbol of strength once it is accumulated and forged into something. "and We descended the iron, in it (is) strong (severe) power/might , and benefits/uses for the people"<<<
That was not the point. I wanted you to focus on the last part of this verse and make sense of what is believing in God and russoulihi (plural or rassoul ; messengers) in the unseen.
Tay wrote...The angels are unseen, but not unverifiable.
......Perhaps there is a deeper meaning? Perhaps angels are the good emotions we feel when we're on the right track, reminding us that we're on the path to Paradise, serving us by reinforcing the good.
As for the last day, isn't it obvious? Do you know of anyone who is immortal? Are there any immortal creatures on this planet? I presume the answer is no. All life is in a state of decay. The last day is the culmination, the inevitable end.<<<<<
Interesting this concept of "unverifiable" but with a "perhaps"-) plus hmmmm... I need to know all the books and the messengers to believe in them but on the other hand it is "obvious" that the last day is the culmination???? is this a way to verify??? does not sound too consistent -)
Tay wrote...Because you say I have to believe in ALL of them. If I don't know which ones they are, how can I believe in them? I'd be lying to myself. Again, you're missing the deeper meaning. What is being told to us is that God never left a people without guidance. We're being asked to believe that everyone on this earth since the beginning of time had some form of guidance. Why is this important?<<<<
That's fine Tay, take it easy.
Tay wrote...Because if you don't believe this, then you would be believing that God left some people with no chance of succeeding in life and graduating into the afterlife. This would mean that God is unfair. Can you see the importance?
I have never said that. I thought we were debating the belief in what came in the Quran and not speculation.
Tay wrote....In direct contrast, you would have me blindly believe that books existed of which I have no knowledge. What does this do for my spiritual growth?<<
I think you misunderstood the whole point here despite my explanation that you quoted below. That's fine with me Tay, inchallah you will find the spiritual growth. Peace. Myr.
We believe in all HIS messengers because that's God's decree and truth. HE sends a messenger for every nation/group and therefore it is our duty to acknowledge this mission.
Yes, the mission, not the people. I hope you see the difference now.
We believe in all the books because that's God's decree and truth, HIS message and signs reach every and each nation and it is our duty to acknowledge that.
Yes, the message, not the books.
One last thing do you believe only in what you see/know?
I believe only what is verifiable, per 1736.
Please reflect on the verses above among many other verses in Quran and you will make sense inchallah of 2285 and the belief in the unseen.
Thanks, sis. I have and I've enjoyed every moment, Alhamdulillah.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
EnquirerPeace mquran. You stated that sister myr was very confident in herself because you felt that she felt her explanations of quran were sufficient to condemn a person who received her explanation...You then finished your post by saying 'if you fail to judge by what allah has revealed,youre not a believer'. You made the exact same mistake that you accused sister myr of... Its seems that self-proclaimed dogmas and double standards rule.
Enquirer, if you would kindly take the time to read carefully, you would have noticed the difference. I will explain step by step for you
Myr My uncle didnt accept the Quran despite my preaching of al-quraan to him.
MQ (as quoted verbatim) As for 'insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the quraan', i suggest you adopt a quranic criteria to ascertain who actually believes in the quran. Claiming to believe in the quran holds no currency with Allah. It doesn't matter what label you adopt, if you fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, you're not a 'believer' (4/65)
If you can please point where my statement
- judges a particular person outside quranic boundaries
- contradicts al-quraan
i'd be happy to rescind and correct myself. Crying out 'self-proclaimed dogma' does not an argument make, Enquirer.
My statement doesn't point to a single person based on his label. I know Sunnis who satisfy the Quranic criteria of mumin and I know Quraniyeen who take the Quran for anachronistic foolishness. What I AM postulating is a repetition of what al-quraan says. If you don't accept this postulation, that's nothing to do with me. Myr however is judging a known person based on the rejection of her preaching of him. This person has thus (to the limit of Myr's exposition of him) has not shown such behaviour.
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Peace mquran. To be honest there is little difference between what you have both said...At the end of the day its both your opinions based on your understandings of the quran which condemns people. Your assertion contradicts quran because the christians and jews can use their own books which supposedly contain the 'hukm' of allah,so they can 'judge' by what allah reveals using the torah or injeel according to the quran. In this way christians and jews are not condemned nor are people who do not judge by the quran.(2;62 and 5;69.) So if you believe a believer can only judge with the quran then you are also outside of quranic boundaries in your opinion. You are also making a big assumption about myr,as i suspect she knows her uncle much,much better than you.(though i dont have an opinion on what his belief is,as i dont know him.) Dont you think you are being a little over-confident in your postulation that you are 'just repeating the quran/allahs pronouncements'? Have you ever considered your opinions may be way off base or at least incorrect?
Peace all. -
Peace mquran. To be honest there is little difference between what you have both said...
Strange. I've punctuated my discourse with al-quraan and in this case, Myr hasn't. Therefore, I take it you consider al-quraan as weightless.
At the end of the day its both your opinions based on your understandings of the quran which condemns people. Your assertion contradicts quran because the christians and jews can use their own books which supposedly contain the 'hukm' of allah,so they can 'judge' by what allah reveals using the torah or injeel according to the quran.
Own books ? Please do some research.
In this way christians and jews are not condemned nor are people who do not judge by the quran.(2;62 and 5;69.) So if you believe a believer can only judge with the quran then you are also outside of quranic boundaries in your opinion.
Please do some research about the opinions regarding 'an-nasaara' and 'al-yahood' and 'alladhina haadu'.
You are also making a big assumption about myr,as i suspect she knows her uncle much,much better than you.(though i dont have an opinion on what his belief is,as i dont know him.) Dont you think you are being a little over-confident in your postulation that you are 'just repeating the quran/allahs pronouncements'?
Sigh..for the last time before I leave you in peace
Myr has an uncle.
Her uncle is Christian.
Despite her sincere attempts, the uncle did not accept al-quraan.
Myr says He rejects al-quraan
MQ says He rejects YOUR PREACHING of al-quraan.
Al-quraan is alhaqq. Allah is al-haqq. Myr's preaching, my preaching your preaching can only mediate al-haqq. Whether her uncle has encountered al-haqq or not is not for us to know. As long as he doesn't act like what AL-QURAAN says a kafir is, he's not a kafir.
Have you ever considered your opinions may be way off base or at least incorrect?
Of course, all the time. However, I ask for always one thing QURANIC EVIDENCE. Slogans like 'self-proclaimed dogma' isn't evidence to me.
Thanks for your time. I'll stop here unless you'd like to further the discussion based on al-quraan.
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Salam mquran, all,
Myr Yup! your statement above reminds me the verse on those disbelievers who have been warned but yet they said, "and IF we are brought back to God, we will find better fate" A lot of people are so confident about themselves and how God will juge them! that I wonder why the prophets themselves were not so sure what it will happen to them on the J-day as per the Quran-).
If you notice, I used the word 'think'. The word 'think' (contextually equating to 'guess' or 'speculate') denotes a LACK of assurance.
I am confident however in al-quraan. Through al-quraan, I see that those who are judged have been brought al-haqq. Since I don't know your uncle nor can I ever know what's in his heart, I cannot make such a pronouncement.
You on the other hand ARE very confident in yourSELF because you feel your explanations of al-quraan are enough that if one rejects them after receiving them, they are condemned.
just find it sad that you too are obssessed with the sunnis. A lot of members here are not capable of carrying any debate without labelling or referring to others by names. It is not a healthful debate if you keep this rethoric of sunnis, shias, tradition followers etc... you are only perpetuating what has clearly been condemned in Quran, that is, insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the Quran.
Obsessed ? By mentioning them here I become obsessed ? Rather strange.
I used the sunnis because i've conducted thought experiments which pitted sunni propagation methods against philosophical tools. I found that philosophy consistently smashes the falsehood of sunni propositions.
As for 'insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the quraan', i suggest you adopt a quranic criteria to ascertain who actually believes in the quran. Claiming to believe in the quran holds no currency with Allah. It doesn't matter what label you adopt, if you fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, you're not a 'believer' (4/65)
Take it easy Brother, and may God the All-Mighty forgive you. Peace. Myr.
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if u can point out why u would not want to believe in the prophethood of muhammad u would have a case! as for those who were present and dealt with muhammad when he was physically alive, it would have equated as having denied, in the very least, a part of the message of god! again, if u have no problems with the message, why would u have any with the messenger! if u reject the messenger because of the message u reject god and not just the messenger! if u reject both of them u still reject god!
even for the rest, the quran is certain about its revelation being to muhammad, so to contest his prophethood is to contest the word of god! that said we do not have to believe everything about muhammad as put forth in sources other than quran!
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Peace all. An excellent advert for 'morality based on the quran only'... shock Talk about closed minds. !
The quran is a book,not god. I reject the sectarian,subjective opinions,not god. The quran is not my idol. You guys really need to wake up to what is real,not what you think is real.
Peace all. -
even for the rest, the quran is certain about its revelation being to muhammad, so to contest his prophethood is to contest the word of god! that said we do not have to believe everything about muhammad as put forth in sources other than quran!
Can you please point where al-quraan says it was given for the first time to a man named Muhammad ibn Abdullah?
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Salam Enquirer, all
Be carefull Brother, a lot of people will put words in your mouth to advance their claim. Below is what I wrote about my uncle from all the messages I posted here and compare with how I was quoted.
Quran also tells us that among the people of the book, Jews, Christians, AMONG THEM, some do believe in this Quran as a divine revelation to the prophet when it was brought to them therefore if you bring the Quran to someone who clearly denies it, there is no salvation. I have my family and my uncle in particular (Christian) who studied the Quran using all the possible translations, I can tell you he even invested in books on Quran and Arabic language like never, he will tell you everything about the Quran and any verse in the Quran but the guidance has not yet been granted to him, Quran remains like any other book for him and talking to him is like talking to a wall, even with a clear explanation step by step to show him the rational thinking in Quran, he will come up with all kind of philosophical gymnastics to just prove that still something is wrong with Quran. Anyway, it is God the All-Mighty who guides and makes us see. <<<<<<<<
The issue is not judging his opinion, the issue is reporting the facts as they are. He explicitely acknowledges he does not believe in the Quran and to a certain extent he thinks Jesus may save him if it gets sour with God!! <<<<<<
Peace. Myr.
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thegod# could u please specify where i talked about a muhammad ibn abdullah?
Underlined below where you mentioned Muhammad. I am using 'muhammad ibn abdullah' to denote the difference between him *(a figure who existed in linnear time) and 'muhammadun rasulullah wa khatamun nabiyeen'. Al-quraan never says that it was first given to Muhammad the historical personality. This was your own assertion as per below.
even for the rest, the quran is certain about its revelation being to muhammad, so to contest his prophethood is to contest the word of god! that said we do not have to believe everything about muhammad as put forth in sources other than quran
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Enquirer The quran is a book,not god. I reject the sectarian,subjective opinions,not god. The quran is not my idol. You guys really need to wake up to what is real,not what you think is real.
Real ? Can YOU please tell us what 'real' is? Because if we wish to talk about God, we will either speak with truth , al-haqq or we will speak with conjecture, dhann. An abstract God which Enquirer conjects about is 'real' ? Amazing.
Since you believe al-quraan isn't literally applicable, why don't you produce a coherent discourse like it? Meet the challenge and show what (post) modern minds can do.
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Peace all. Seems to me that some people are struggling to distinguish between what god says,the quran says,and what they themselves say... While sometimes all three can agree,at times its only two of the above that agree,and sometimes only one...The quran and man are fallible,god is not.
Peace all. ps;We all have gaps and limitations in our knowledge,so we should be careful before using the quran/'god' as an excuse to justify harmful opinions and behaviour. (2224-225.) -
mquran wrote
Underlined below where you mentioned Muhammad. I am using 'muhammad ibn abdullah' to denote the difference between him *(a figure who existed in linnear time) and 'muhammadun rasulullah wa khatamun nabiyeen'. Al-quraan never says that it was first given to Muhammad the historical personality. This was your own assertion as per below.so are u asserting there was no muhammad in history? have i said historical muhammad or traditional muhammad? i simply said in the prophethood of muhammad!
that said, what do u think happened to the muhammad in the verse u posted? did he exist? do u have any information of his background apart? and do u think this khatimunnabi has vanished without a trace? i am not saying he did or did not, but since u seem to be bent on distinguishing 1 from the other, i would like to hear what u have to say about him!