salvation while refusing prophethood of Mohammed possible?
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Salam mquran, all,
Myr Yup! your statement above reminds me the verse on those disbelievers who have been warned but yet they said, "and IF we are brought back to God, we will find better fate" A lot of people are so confident about themselves and how God will juge them! that I wonder why the prophets themselves were not so sure what it will happen to them on the J-day as per the Quran-).
If you notice, I used the word 'think'. The word 'think' (contextually equating to 'guess' or 'speculate') denotes a LACK of assurance.
I am confident however in al-quraan. Through al-quraan, I see that those who are judged have been brought al-haqq. Since I don't know your uncle nor can I ever know what's in his heart, I cannot make such a pronouncement.
You on the other hand ARE very confident in yourSELF because you feel your explanations of al-quraan are enough that if one rejects them after receiving them, they are condemned.
just find it sad that you too are obssessed with the sunnis. A lot of members here are not capable of carrying any debate without labelling or referring to others by names. It is not a healthful debate if you keep this rethoric of sunnis, shias, tradition followers etc... you are only perpetuating what has clearly been condemned in Quran, that is, insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the Quran.
Obsessed ? By mentioning them here I become obsessed ? Rather strange.
I used the sunnis because i've conducted thought experiments which pitted sunni propagation methods against philosophical tools. I found that philosophy consistently smashes the falsehood of sunni propositions.
As for 'insisting on more shiism among those who believe in the quraan', i suggest you adopt a quranic criteria to ascertain who actually believes in the quran. Claiming to believe in the quran holds no currency with Allah. It doesn't matter what label you adopt, if you fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, you're not a 'believer' (4/65)
Take it easy Brother, and may God the All-Mighty forgive you. Peace. Myr.
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if u can point out why u would not want to believe in the prophethood of muhammad u would have a case! as for those who were present and dealt with muhammad when he was physically alive, it would have equated as having denied, in the very least, a part of the message of god! again, if u have no problems with the message, why would u have any with the messenger! if u reject the messenger because of the message u reject god and not just the messenger! if u reject both of them u still reject god!
even for the rest, the quran is certain about its revelation being to muhammad, so to contest his prophethood is to contest the word of god! that said we do not have to believe everything about muhammad as put forth in sources other than quran!
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Peace all. An excellent advert for 'morality based on the quran only'... shock Talk about closed minds. !
The quran is a book,not god. I reject the sectarian,subjective opinions,not god. The quran is not my idol. You guys really need to wake up to what is real,not what you think is real.
Peace all. -
even for the rest, the quran is certain about its revelation being to muhammad, so to contest his prophethood is to contest the word of god! that said we do not have to believe everything about muhammad as put forth in sources other than quran!
Can you please point where al-quraan says it was given for the first time to a man named Muhammad ibn Abdullah?
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Salam Enquirer, all
Be carefull Brother, a lot of people will put words in your mouth to advance their claim. Below is what I wrote about my uncle from all the messages I posted here and compare with how I was quoted.
Quran also tells us that among the people of the book, Jews, Christians, AMONG THEM, some do believe in this Quran as a divine revelation to the prophet when it was brought to them therefore if you bring the Quran to someone who clearly denies it, there is no salvation. I have my family and my uncle in particular (Christian) who studied the Quran using all the possible translations, I can tell you he even invested in books on Quran and Arabic language like never, he will tell you everything about the Quran and any verse in the Quran but the guidance has not yet been granted to him, Quran remains like any other book for him and talking to him is like talking to a wall, even with a clear explanation step by step to show him the rational thinking in Quran, he will come up with all kind of philosophical gymnastics to just prove that still something is wrong with Quran. Anyway, it is God the All-Mighty who guides and makes us see. <<<<<<<<
The issue is not judging his opinion, the issue is reporting the facts as they are. He explicitely acknowledges he does not believe in the Quran and to a certain extent he thinks Jesus may save him if it gets sour with God!! <<<<<<
Peace. Myr.
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thegod# could u please specify where i talked about a muhammad ibn abdullah?
Underlined below where you mentioned Muhammad. I am using 'muhammad ibn abdullah' to denote the difference between him *(a figure who existed in linnear time) and 'muhammadun rasulullah wa khatamun nabiyeen'. Al-quraan never says that it was first given to Muhammad the historical personality. This was your own assertion as per below.
even for the rest, the quran is certain about its revelation being to muhammad, so to contest his prophethood is to contest the word of god! that said we do not have to believe everything about muhammad as put forth in sources other than quran
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Enquirer The quran is a book,not god. I reject the sectarian,subjective opinions,not god. The quran is not my idol. You guys really need to wake up to what is real,not what you think is real.
Real ? Can YOU please tell us what 'real' is? Because if we wish to talk about God, we will either speak with truth , al-haqq or we will speak with conjecture, dhann. An abstract God which Enquirer conjects about is 'real' ? Amazing.
Since you believe al-quraan isn't literally applicable, why don't you produce a coherent discourse like it? Meet the challenge and show what (post) modern minds can do.
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Peace all. Seems to me that some people are struggling to distinguish between what god says,the quran says,and what they themselves say... While sometimes all three can agree,at times its only two of the above that agree,and sometimes only one...The quran and man are fallible,god is not.
Peace all. ps;We all have gaps and limitations in our knowledge,so we should be careful before using the quran/'god' as an excuse to justify harmful opinions and behaviour. (2224-225.) -
mquran wrote
Underlined below where you mentioned Muhammad. I am using 'muhammad ibn abdullah' to denote the difference between him *(a figure who existed in linnear time) and 'muhammadun rasulullah wa khatamun nabiyeen'. Al-quraan never says that it was first given to Muhammad the historical personality. This was your own assertion as per below.so are u asserting there was no muhammad in history? have i said historical muhammad or traditional muhammad? i simply said in the prophethood of muhammad!
that said, what do u think happened to the muhammad in the verse u posted? did he exist? do u have any information of his background apart? and do u think this khatimunnabi has vanished without a trace? i am not saying he did or did not, but since u seem to be bent on distinguishing 1 from the other, i would like to hear what u have to say about him!
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Peace all. Seems to me that some people are struggling to distinguish between what god says,the quran says,and what they themselves say... While sometimes all three can agree,at times its only two of the above that agree,and sometimes only one...The quran and man are fallible,god is not.
Peace all. ps;We all have gaps and limitations in our knowledge,so we should be careful before using the quran/'god' as an excuse to justify harmful opinions and behaviour. (2224-225.)By what standard is the quran fallible ?
Is that standard itself fallible?
Please produce a discourse like al-quraan. I'd like to see how a modern person what a modern person would come up with.
p.s. if al-quraan is fallible why are you quoting from it? Are you not worried your statement is fallible?
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enquirer wrote
Peace all. ps;We all have gaps and limitations in our knowledge,so we should be careful before using the quran/'god' as an excuse to justify harmful opinions and behaviour. (2224-225.)i guess the 2224-225 in bracket is the verse which tells u that v should be careful in using quran or god as an excuse to justify r harmful behavior! and since u assert quran is fallible perhaps the particluar verse should not be trusted either!
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peace mquran,myr and thegod.
Thegod; Im quoting from your book,i happen to agree with that verse...Doesnt mean i agree with all the verses. DMquran; The quran is fallible because its a book of muhammeds(or whoever wrote it.) opinions,only god is perfect.Is the quran the same as god? Did you believe in god before the quran? I believe some of your interpretations are conjecture.(dhann.) And there is no abstract in my idea of god,god is within my friend,that is 100% verifiable. D
As for a coherent discourse...
a)how is all the quran coherent? You guys cant even agree on salat(one issue.) never mind making the whole quran into a coherent discourse...
b) here is a general verse or discourse from me;
'Keep your minds open and keep doing good deeds'.
Thats as coherent as any quranic verse. DMyr;I read all of what you wrote about you uncle,mquran should agree with your analysis but he seems to have overlooked your post or has double standards...I dont have an opinion on your uncle because i dont have enough information,but be patient with him anyway. I also dont believe rejecting quran necessarily makes him a disbeliever either.
Peace all. -
Peace thegod. I agree with what i can verify as true,and disagree with what i can verify as not true. And i suspend judgement on what i have not yet verified,or do not yet know off. All this i try to do with an open-mind and aware of my own limits and fallibility...Most importantly trying not to cause unnecessary harm with my opinions or behaviour.
Peace all. -
enquirer wrote
Peace thegod. I agree with what i can verify as true,and disagree with what i can verify as not true. And i suspend judgement on what i have not yet verified,or do not yet know off. All this i try to do with an open-mind and aware of my own limits and fallibility...Most importantly trying not to cause unnecessary harm with my opinions or behaviourbut just because u disagree (based on ur verification) does not invalidate it, does it? especially when we confessed to being limitedly able?
as for suspending judgement that is something which i do as well! and what is it that u have disagreed with and that which u have suspended ur judgement upon? i am interested in seeing loopholes in quran!
not causing unnecessary harm...yeah..thats cool! -)
peace
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Peace Myr,
You stated
Sorry dear, I thought you were the one who asked if I knew all the messengers and the books since I believe in all of them. My substance is the Quran.
OK, and does this substance (the Qur'an) ask you to accept info blindly?
I believe in anything the Quran says. If the Quran says the believers are the one who believe in all the messengers, I believe in all of them, I do not need to know them all by name or to know their books but I believe they existed and they received the revelation with the same wisdom in Quran as I believe in Noah's floods as I believe in Loth's city destruction ect...., I don't need a proof, Quran is sufficient for me. What is wrong with that?
There is nothing wrong with what you believe. What is wrong is condemning someone else for what they believe. That's what started all the fireworks, your condemnation of anyone who did not accept your interpretation.
Where we differ is you need tangeable proofs and names, while I don't need.
Either I'm doing a terrible job of explaining myself or you're not paying attention. I'll take the blame. Let me have another crack at it...
I do not need tangible proofs or names. I need verifiable guidance, per 1736. I don't believe Allah is asking us to have faith in things which have absolutely no bearing on our own lives. That would be a waste of words and a fruitless energy.
Yet you say you believe in all the messengers. But you don't know how many there were nor who they were. So you are not believing in anything but an arbitrary concept. That's fine if that's how you feel. But it's not a good idea to push this concept on people as a prerequisite to salvation, particularly when there are many ayat that directly contradict this understanding.
I wanted you to focus on the last part of this verse and make sense of what is believing in God and russoulihi (plural or rassoul ; messengers) in the unseen.
OK. We're being told that God wanted to distinguish who would support His system on faith of it's success. This system was perpetuated by the messengers. Apparently, some people didn't believe what the messengers were saying.
Is that what you were looking for?
Interesting this concept of "unverifiable" but with a "perhaps" plus hmmmm... I need to know all the books and the messengers to believe in them but on the other hand it is "obvious" that the last day is the culmination???? is this a way to verify??? does not sound too consistent
"Perhaps" in the English language, besides meaning "possibly", also means "by chance". Used in a certain context, it is suggesting the possibility to the reader, not necessarily as something that is only a possibility.
eg.
"Mom, I was late for school today"
"Well, perhaps if you weren't up until 4am downloading Kool and the Gang, you would have woke up on time."Nevertheless, it's interesting that you're dissecting my use of the English language rather than focusing on the matter at hand, which you selctively ignored.
I'll ask again in case you're interested in addressing the query
Have angels ever spoken to you or anyone else that you know?
Do you know of any living creature that is immortal?Tay wrote...Because if you don't believe this, then you would be believing that God left some people with no chance of succeeding in life and graduating into the afterlife. This would mean that God is unfair. Can yousee the importance?
I have never said that. I thought we were debating the belief in what came in the Quran and not speculation.
If you don't fit the desciption in the first sentence, then the rest does not apply to you. It was a general statement.
I think you misunderstood the whole point here despite my explanation that you quoted below. That's fine with me Tay, inchallah you will find the spiritual growth.
It seems to me that you're sitting on both sides of the fence. Thank you for the kind words.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
EnquirerMquran; The quran is fallible because its a book of muhammeds(or whoever wrote it.) opinions,only god is perfect.
Enquirer, why do you shy away from addressing my questions. My questions were
By what standard is the quran fallible ?
Let me explain the question to you. You're saying X is fallible. However, X MUST BE fallible according to a certain standard of judgement. What is that standard of judgement?
If you say X was written by so and so, then that's YOUR assertion about X. X says that it was taught by Allah and was protected by Him (41/42) and continously addresses the reality of the human condition (41/53).
So the question remains, BY WHAT STANDARD is X fallible?
Next question
Is that standard itself fallible?
So far, the standard is your evaluations. Are your valuations infallible? Have you shown any superhuman authority to determine why your valuations are better than al-quraans. I will deconstruct your coherent discourse below.
Is the quran the same as god?
Same in what way?
Did you believe in god before the quran?
Yes I did but before al-quraan , I would have believed in a god of my own making, as you are now. With al-quraan as my standard, I can understand The Will of Allah and my being as human.
I believe some of your interpretations are conjecture.(dhann.) And there is no abstract in my idea of god,god is within my friend,that is 100% verifiable.
Yes, a god disempowered to rule in society. He's just your personal friend, isnt he ? Just like He's Bush's personal friend.
As for a coherent discourse...
a)how is all the quran coherent? You guys cant even agree on salat(one issue.) never mind making the whole quran into a coherent discourse...So al-quraan is incoherent because a group of people can't agree on it? I will ask you what I asked ichepren how do you know the people themselves are not flawed?
b) here is a general verse or discourse from me;
'Keep your minds open and keep doing good deeds'.
Thats as coherent as any quranic verse.In your opinion, yes. Being the reciever of your discourse, I would ask you
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Can we open our minds to evil ?
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What is the definition of 'good' ? What makes something 'good'.
One anecdote doesn't a 'coherent discourse' make, im afraid.
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thegod # so are u asserting there was no muhammad in history? have i said historical muhammad or traditional muhammad? i simply said in the prophethood of muhammad!
A prophet certainly recieved and committed al-quraan to writing. However, that process is simply deduced logically. Nothing in al-quraan tells us who that person was nor is that person relevant to our beings.
that said, what do u think happened to the muhammad in the verse u posted? did he exist? do u have any information of his background apart? and do u think this khatimunnabi has vanished without a trace? i am not saying he did or did not, but since u seem to be bent on distinguishing 1 from the other, i would like to hear what u have to say about him!
I believe the 'muhammad' mentioned 4 times in al-quraan are the personality types which any human being can achieve. I do not believe that he was only the prophet who recieved al-quraan. This is because the kalimaat and sunan of Allah do not change as do not the essence of humankind.