Is the Quran for all time?
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First of all, what part of banging ones head against the wall implies that a law by doing so is being established.
the fact that people do it and blame others for not doing it. Same with the sunnis really. If you are an orthodox jew, in the sense that you take only the Torah for guidence and ignore the halakhah. all peace to that.
In the Mishnah (Abot 12) one sees the broad philosophy that governed the minds of the early rabbis
"By three things is the world sustained
- by the law,
- by the (temple) service,
- and by deeds of lovingkindness."
I fint the order interresting.
Thunder is not caused by volcanos. So this would make the Lord a volcano/thunder spirit, right?
Thunder is ALTSO caused by volcanos, it is normal that volcanic activity draws thunder. When you look at the images of "moses on the mountain" in a book like encyclopedia judica, whgat do you see. IF it isnt a volcano. TO me that is just one hebrew saying to another hebrew ; "its a volcano Erhan"!
Can you please explain how this fits the context of idolizing jews.
one word, JHVH!. I can, and have, traced this diety back to Enlil of sumer, and certainly volcanic spirits. You may have changed a bit here and there, and wont use the name etc.. its stil a volcano tho.
As a matter of fact I believe that what you just quoted is not of the Tor? you keep insisting is a "law". Would you mind refering to what verses they come from?
the old testament, known in jewish circles as the tanak. So deny this, and you deny both JHVH and Moses. But that will be your choice to make.
The ealy judaism was in fact not monotheistic at all. it was henotheistis, wich mean they had a major god in a pantheon of many. THis major god later became the focus of a somewhat monotheistic faith. alltho, when you keep the pagan rituals of old, are you still monotheist? i dont think so, but ofcourse, God is our judge. -
Peace mquran
i would appreciate a little more etiquette wink from you like greetings of peace...somethings the book we both accept as our guidance (even if we have different understandings) prescribes...
and why do you always attack like
It's sad that you've judged al-quraan before even noticing this!i actually know about his interpretation which leaves people free - but in general if one leaves a will in an sunni country, he/she can only write it in accordance with the rules of parts fixed in quran...if not it will be attacked in courts and broken. And this is reality, this is how our book is applied and understood today... and this is why we have to break away from it, keeping its spirit in mind though.
Another prescription from quran i would like to remind you off speak to the people in the nicest possible manner, so that one that is your ennemi might become your best friend... and please abstain from telling me again that my attitude is non islamic as u did before.
i only tell you that it may be unislamic in your eyes - but only god will judge me, and it is the only judgment i accept
lk
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would appreciate a little more etiquette from you like greetings of peace...somethings the book we both accept as our guidance (even if we have different understandings) prescribes...
Sorry, my method is to give greetings at the beginnings of threads. I see threads as conversations and since I don't salute people at every turn I speak, I don't give salaam in that way either. Al-quraan tells me to give salaam when i meet people.
and why do you always attack like
Strange that you see my response as an attack. I was simply responding to your statement regarding al-quraan. You made a fallacious statement and deduced that al-quraan was inapplicable. I find it sad that al-quraan was sentenced by a person who 'accepts it as guidance' (as you admit above) without consideration.
i actually know about his interpretation which leaves people free - but in general if one leaves a will in an sunni country, he/she can only write it in accordance with the rules of parts fixed in quran...if not it will be attacked in courts and broken. And this is reality, this is how our book is applied and understood today... and this is why we have to break away from it, keeping its spirit in mind though.
Sunni country ? So al-quraan's principles are being attacked due to SUNNI applicational issues? Elke, I don't know how long you've been in this forum but equating al-quraan to sunni application of al-quraan is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Don't you have a better response than this?
Another prescription from quran i would like to remind you off speak to the people in the nicest possible manner, so that one that is your ennemi might become your best friend... and please abstain from telling me again that my attitude is non islamic as u did before.
Thanks for the reminder. However, I feel that I was reminding you in the nicest way possible and I conject that your emotive response is due to the fact that you've been caught out. It's so pleasing to the ears to see how we talk of 'modern times' and 'applicability to Arabs of 7th century' but when the shallowness of our study becomes apparent, its not as pleasing.
only tell you that it may be unislamic in your eyes - but only god will judge me, and it is the only judgment i accept
It was certainly unislamic in my eyes, but also irrelevant to my life. These discussions are useful as simulations of real possibilities. Whether you judge with half the quran, a quarter or none of it isn't my business at all. What IS my business is to run these thought experiments in my own existential arena and see their validity in my own life. Ichephren, yourself and a few other relativists have so far only shown that your displacement of al-quraan as al-furqaan is at the very least, contrary to what al-quraan teaches. That's all I really cared to know.
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peace mquran
Sunni country ? So al-quraan's principles are being attacked due to SUNNI applicational issues? Elke, I don't know how long you've been in this forum but equating al-quraan to sunni application of al-quraan is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Don't you have a better response than this?
i in no way equate quran to sunni application , but this is what it unfortunately comes to in reality and this where you should come down to from time to time.
also, i do not attack a quranic principle if giving more to the sons was then appropriate in most cases because at the time they were the bread earners and only family support this is not valid anymore today in most societies.i still consider following the spiritual guidance of quran in doing the best possible thing permitting a balanced situation, giving my son as much as my daughter...
for the rest of it, i do think you are very aggressive and rude, and the above pasted response is another proof. You often hurt the feelings of people and i guess you don't even realize it because that's just the way you are...
Discussing with you does not bring me anything (i know its the same for you) we're not on the same wavelength and you'll never get what i'm saying... i do get what you say though, have been there, but fortunately i evolved. Wish you the same
lk
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Peace elke and mquran. Elke;i have read some of your posts and find you to be a rational,humane,mannered person who tries to apply the quran to make peace for humanity...Which i commend you for.
Mquran; i find your posts very close-minded,opinionated and critical of others,whose intelligence is way higher than yours. You seem to want to attack anyone who disagrees with you. This book that you claim is perfect...well elke quoted you a verse about 'saying what is best',and you dont seem to want to follow it...Will you attack and condemn yourself? I agree with elke,i was once dogmatic and uncaring like you..but ive evolved too...
Peace all. ps;Are you the judge? you seem to be acting like you are the god or gods spokesman? I hope you open your mind and evolve too. -
Elke in no way equate quran to sunni application , but this is what it unfortunately comes to in reality and this where you should come down to from time to time.
Which reality is this? Why should I consider what certain people are doing (i.e. 'muslims') and not consider others (i.e. 'non-muslims'). Everyone is the same except for their adherence to the law.
At the end of the day, we were discussing al-quraan not the ways some people practise it. You know this as well as I do.
also, i do not attack a quranic principle if giving more to the sons was then appropriate in most cases because at the time they were the bread earners and only family support this is not valid anymore today in most societies.i still consider following the spiritual guidance of quran in doing the best possible thing permitting a balanced situation, giving my son as much as my daughter...
Good for you. However, this isn't the gist of the argument. Your words were simply
i wouldn't leave more to my son than my daughter either - societies change and laws evolve!
the second sentence wouldn't have been pronounced had the 'draw up will' verse been known. It wouldnt have been necessary. But in your haste to throw the Quran into the past, you overlooked it.
for the rest of it, i do think you are very aggressive and rude, and the above pasted response is another proof. You often hurt the feelings of people and i guess you don't even realize it because that's just the way you are...
You're entitled to your view. I think you're superficial in your analysis and quick to disempower the Quran. This is because you have a preconcieved notion as to what ad-deen should be. You should quit deluding yourself that guidance comes separately from obedience to the law. Al-quraan teaches that once the law is abandoned, we follow nothing but delusions. Please see here that I'm not questioning your personal conduct. I don't know you in real life. I am simply participating in a thought experiment to render al-quraan's philosophy manifest.
Discussing with you does not bring me anything (i know its the same for you)
No, discussion with you, ichepren and other 'quranic relativists' do help me in introducing 'philosophical possibilities' to my understanding of al-kitaab.
we're not on the same wavelength and you'll never get what i'm saying...
Here's what you're saying Quranic laws were only for a certain time and are no longer applicable now. However, I still take my guidance from al-quraan.
Did I get what you're saying?
i do get what you say though, have been there, but fortunately i evolved. Wish you the same
I certainly don't wish me the same because if rejecting al-quraan's law (in effect rejecting al-quraan itself) is 'evolved', I'd much rather be 'devolved'.
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Mquran; i find your posts very close-minded,opinionated and critical of others,whose intelligence is way higher than yours. You seem to want to attack anyone who disagrees with you. This book that you claim is perfect...well elke quoted you a verse about 'saying what is best',and you dont seem to want to follow it...Will you attack and condemn yourself? I agree with elke,i was once dogmatic and uncaring like you..but ive evolved too...
Enquirer, I find your posts to be empty, a gasbag of words without substance. This is why you come up with explanations like your 'far-fetched' fiasco, because you're not out to sincerely investigate anything. The reason you agree with Elke is due to a common desire, not a common understanding the desire to reify your own projections. That's why you commend Elke's wrongful pronouncement of al-quraan's laws, you do it yourself all the time. This is the only way you people can sentence al-quraan into the past, by pretending not to hear what it REALLY says. How sad and pathetic.
I would love to see a sincere critic of al-quraan come up with proper arguments instead of the 'you cant agree, so al-quraan must be wrong' nonsense. But I wont hold my breath...
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peace mquran
I certainly don't wish me the same because if rejecting al-quraan's law (in effect rejecting al-quraan itself) is 'evolved', I'd much rather be 'devolved'.
this is exctely were we part. i don't consider adapting laws to nowadays reality as rejecting quran itself but on the contrary may be that's just what you are doing. Hanging on to laws that applied today as they were then do not translate anymore the inherent message of quran...
there's no point in continuing this discussion - to your is your system to me is mine
elke
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Elke this is exctely were we part. i don't consider adapting laws to nowadays reality as rejecting quran itself but on the contrary may be that's just what you are doing. Hanging on to laws that applied today as they were then do not translate anymore the inherent message of quran...
Huh ?!
On what basis do you pronounce that al-quraan's laws 'do not translate anymore'. Have human beings changed on an essential level?
Al-quraan wasn't meant to be adapted to (i.e ESSENTIALLY changed) to suit (your constructed contingent) reality but (your constructed contingent)reality was meant to be adapted to the ideals of al-quraan. I worship Allah. Allah doesn't worship me. I follow His Book. His Book doesn't follow me. If you abrogate any part of His Book, either it should be on the basis of His Command or what you're doing is telling Him 'your laws arent advanced enough for me now, i'll just follow your spiritual guidance, whatever that means'.
there's no point in continuing this discussion - to your is your system to me is mine
Was it ever anything other than this?
I'm sorry if I came across as a propagation attempt. I don't know you nor do I care what you believe or do. Please believe me when I tell you that I truly do not concern myself with others beliefs. I am concerned with the right arguments for myself as I believe that al-haqq stands a rational critique. This is the extent of this discussion to me and this is why my metaphorical throat grows hoarse asking ichepren, yourself and enquirer to provide evidence. From you and ichepren, that evidence would have to come from al-quraan since you claim to be believers and from enquirer, according logical formulations. Like I say though, I wont hold my breath.
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Peace mquran. If i gave you logical pronouncements would you accept them? I thought you only accepted al-furqan?
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eace mquran. If i gave you logical pronouncements would you accept them? I thought you only accepted al-furqan?
Since you don't believe in al-quraan, we have to take recourse to our existential reality as humans and the logical axioms found in language. It's not what I accept, its what you accept. If you don't accept this and still want to go with your personal friend God within (which Mr Bush also shares), then there's nothing more to say.
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Peace mquran. Dont you have a god that personally guides you too? (or can he only speak through the quran.)
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Peace All,
Just some thoughts...
First, I'd like to commend you all on the use of the English language, vocabulary in particular, throughout this thread.
Getting to the topic, it would only be beneficial for all readers if those who feel the Qur'an is time-bound, atleast partly, to produce the ayat which they feel are relevant. I've had some thoughts in this regard, mostly concerning bits and pieces of ayat that simply don't seem relevant to me in 2006. What I have found, however, is those bits and pieces of seemingly irrelevant data are always followed with knoweldge that can certainly be applied here and now.
Here's an example
3155
Those of you who turned away on the day that the two hosts met, it was the devil who caused them to deviate because of some of what they had gained. And God has pardoned them, for God is Forgiver, Compassionate..Clearly, the part in bold is talking about a confrontation that happened in the past, and the the ayah is addressing those people involved. But, the knowledge following it is certainly relevant for all time.
Peace
Tay -
Peace all,
Mquran saidAnd you have missed my point, it seems. I am saying, this concept of seperating the laws and guidance is not from al-quraan itself. You are free to believe as you will but those who do not judge according to The Book are deemed to have judged according to their own delusions (5/49) and only those who believe are those who accept God's judgement with full compliance (4/65). So if you expect guidance while you conceal God's laws as 'irrelevant', I think it won't happen.
I said
Once again, I only posed a question of the possibility that the Quran may not be for all time or perhaps only the warnings are for all time, I am not sure. I am not saying anything for definite, as I am only beginning to think of this possibility. But Mquran, if you are certain that it is relevant for all time, then maybe you can answer the following questions
- when is ramadan?
- who are those to whom we are bound by oaths?
- what is salat and when are the times for salat? what does one do in salat?
These are only a few of the "murky" questions that we are made to answer if we are to apply all of the quran now.
Mquran replied
This is an irrelevant set of questions because whatever I answer, it doesn't prove or disprove al-quraan's relevance. We're currently discussing al-quraan's view about YOUR suggestions as to how to apply it. I'm assuming that you care what al-quraan says but if im wrong, please correct me and we don't need to continue.
Anyway, I will answer these 3 questions when you have addressed my point which denies that because a group is in a disagreement, this makes al-quraan relevant.
Your position simply shifts the position of al-furqaan from al-quraan to 'everybody' (some people cannot get the quran, therefore the quran is irrelevant). This position to me, is ridiculous as al-quraan has warned against those who refuse to think and the majority of people who refuse to believe.
I am quite busy studying for finals, so I will end this discussion by just saying a few things to sum up my point
- If you cannot answer the questions that I have listed in a way so as to make it certain when ex. ramadan is during the year, then how do you apply the quran's demands? The fact that you cannot answer any one of those questions is evidence enough that there is a problem.
- If a book cannot be understood then it cannot be applied, regardless of the insistence on obedience. I think everyone here would like to be obedient to God, but if we cannot be certain as to what things mean then obediece is moot
- You are right that separating laws and guidance is an illusion since part of the guidance are the laws. But that has never been my point. My point is that the Quran's guidance can be given irrespective of those laws, and perhaps the laws were only supposed to be followed by the people to whom the Quran was given b/c it was applicable to them and they could understand it.
- I am not saying that just b/c we don't agree on a topic that the Quran is wrong. I am saying that there is something disturbing to me about a book that claims to be clear but nobody can understand and thousands of sincere people have tried to understand. I am just pointing out the problem.
- Generally, for everyone here who has a stance on what the Quran means by something, I think it might be better to go at the questions from a position of "what it isn't" rather than trying to find one answer. The Arabic of the Quraish is not something that we cna easily trace back and know for definite what a term might have meant to them.
- I also think that there is a fear of Quranic interpretation...sometimes we fear what a term might actually mean. Ex. what if those who their oaths possess are slaves and men could sleep with their slaves...what would that say about the Quran, our faith and God? I think this line of thinking infuses much discussion in this forum, regardless of whether we are talking about salat, fasting, hajj, the house, virgin births...everything weighs down on our conception of God and the Quran.
- OK, a last point is that I am truly not saying that the Quran is irrelevant. It still moves me whenever I read it, but I also am confounded by verses that just don't seem to be applicable and after years of study and worry, I am sure that I am not the only one who would like an answer to some hot button questions.
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Peace ichephren.Very honest post. I hope it gets the the replies it deserves.
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The Qur'an is "for" any moment that it is "for" as determined by God.
The Qur'an is not for "all time" as in "any time" as is clearly demonstrated by it not apparently existing during the period just before it existed, and then again it doesn't exist in the lives of many people even to this day.
There is no "time" really, and the Qur'an is just a creation of Allah that makes an appearance in some lives of people, causing benefit or harm to them as part of their stories.
There may be some realities, even that seem to participate in this same world of ours, where the Qur'an has no part or existence for the experiencers involved.
Therefor it can be said it is not "for" them.
The Qur'an is only "for" those that Allah puts it "for", and then either makes it a cause of guidance or misguidance.
Allah does what Allah wills.
The answer to all questions.
Whatever you encounter in your life has been determined "for" you.
There may be an experience where there is no Qur'an in existence at all.
We are grateful for the Good News and guidance of the Qur'an and hope that it is the truth and that we do good and attain good.