The chicken or the egg?
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Just a second! Where does Quran preach immorality?or for that matter deny our natural inclination of right or wrong? Its meant to awaken the very same, I believe.
This i believe is the main problem (along with literalism.) in interpreting any scriptures/knowledge. And leads to over-ruling ones in-built morality in favour of harmful,irrational and dogmatic beliefs.
Well, dont blame the book but the reader, as the interpretation solely depends on the mind and sensibility of the reader.
I believe the primary purpose of religion is to instill morals and discipline in us, humans. The goal being ''goodness''. So, as long as one is 'good', it doesnt really matter where he learnt it from.
Peace!
Well said, pm. ;D
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Hi Enquirer,
Peace peacefulmuslim. Children do not normally read or need religious scriptures but they have a natural inclination to know right and wrong.
Really? Why then do we bother to 'teach' children the right and wrong?
And How do children know to lie etc? And also why do we not punish children for the 'wrongs' as we do for the adults? Could it be coz children do not necessarily know the wrong from the right ?When people substitute or contradict their own natural morality for a 'literal' quranic morality then immorality begins to be preached...
Well, this really depends on the wisdom, intelligence and sensibility of the human being in Question. There are people who claim to be upholders of Quran and yet, justify killing innocent humans.
Yes,the quran can awaken the conscience,but it is not the conscience itself... I agree its not necessarily the book,but how you interpret the book.
Who said Quran was the conscience itself? Now, I am getting confused here. o
(i dont take it to be perfect,complete or a substitute for my own mind.)
Its the same ''mind'' that can be used to plot ''evil'' as well.
Religion is supposed to be a 'reminder' of our intrinsic morality. The goal is very definately goodness or peace,(which is our natural inclination.)
Yep!
and i agree,this can be helped by many scriptures and knowledge from many sources...
Yeah! From sensible sources.
So i hope people stop saying the quran is the only way to goodness... Most religions in their purest form can lead to goodness..
Quran can lead to goodness or atleast is meant to. How one interprets it makes all the difference! )
.But its up to us to use the primary source...our conscience.
Reciting Quran ''alone'' is not gonna get any one any brownie points. Righteousness sure will. )
Peace!
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Peace zenje. No my mind is not absolutely perfect or complete...but its better,for me personally,than just a book... With regard to the quran,maybe i have not clarified myself enough....The quran is a potentially fantastic book,and can help a lot in a persons journey to peaceful behaviour,if it is interpreted properly.It may well be a mixture of literal and metaphorical methods (whatever works individually for lasting peaceful,non-harmful behaviour.),however above all it should not be taken as a substitute for ones conscience and reason,or be deemed the perfect answer to everything.In other words the book should not be idolised.The book is a reminder in arabic for what we already instinctively know.(i dont need the quran to tell me its forbidden to marry my sister for example in surah 4,only to remind peole who have neglected their natural instincts.) The quran has general spiritual principles(if interpreted properly.) which are excellent,but which can be found in other books and languages,and more importantly in ones own life-experiences. Other ways/books are equally or even more valid. Also the quran is in no way totally complete for todays society,which differs greatly from muhammeds time and context. I hope this clarifies a few things.
Peace all;There is no war against any people from me my friends,my struggle is against ignorance,illusion and harmful beliefs...If you show me some errors in my thinking,i will re-evaluate my opinions. -
Salaam all,
1 I believe morals are built into our instinct by God, and that religious scriptures remind us via the intelligent transmission of reading and understanding God's message.
2 As for the 'chicken or the egg' question; obviously the chicken came first, and if you want to know where that first chicken came from, well it came from God. P
Stitch
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Peace peacefulmuslim. Do you have any children sister? I believe we remind children what is right and wrong,as well as helping them apply their morals to different situations. Children know/learn how to lie because they have their own will too,or they misinterpret certain situations or copy others. Children know right from wrong relative to their own individual capacity,our job is to help expand this capacity for different and new scenarios...By your logic if a person as an adult claims he didnt know it was wrong to steal etc..then he is excused from punishment,right?
You seem to agree that the quran can be used for evil,which is what i am saying...Without natural morality the quran is useless,as evidenced by those that murder innocents in its name.. There is a difference between a persons overall mind and their natural morality...that voice that tells you whats right and wrong...and this is our god to be followed...not unverified words,claimed to be all from god,which we think are better than our own verifiable,first hand morality.
Peace all. -
Peace all,
I believe our natural instinct to know right from wrong is limited plus the moral standards are time bound. There are various socieites and cultures in the world and MANY HAVE A DIFFERENT SENSE OF MORAL JUSTICE. Just as an example consider the "death penalty" which is accepted in some parts pf the world, like California, and rejected in others like most European countries. Previous generations sought it alright to marry even sisters and brothers but now this is incorrect. So there goes the natural instinct. Moreover the human being is BIASED TO GET WHAT GOES IN HIS FAVOR. For this reason we need scriptural guidance from GOD telling us exactly what to do as He has calculated each and evrything and so He knows what is best for us. The 2nd thing is to find that Message from GOD. For this wed use the scientific method and apply it to all claimed Divine scriptures available today and then see which sticks out the most. This way we can be sure with technically speaking more than 99.999% of the word of GOD. And as we now have code-19 the probability further increases like say 99.999999%. Note theres a great diff btw 99.999% and 99.999999%, greater than that btw 50% and 90%. I hope i made myself clear. GOD Bless! -
For those who think moarlity is intrinsic, what about sociopaths and misanthropists?
Well, those guys are clearly nuts. ;D
In all honesty, I don't know about those who have mental problems. But my belief that morality is an intrinsic quality is something that I "feel". I believe in my instinct of what is right and wrong, however in addition to that I believe in the scriptures of God's message so that I may be guided to what is right and just.
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Peace "stitch"
Well, those guys are clearly nuts. ;D
In all honesty, I don't know about those who have mental problems. But my belief that morality is an intrinsic quality is something that I "feel". I believe in my instinct of what is right and wrong, however in addition to that I believe in the scriptures of God's message so that I may be guided to what is right and just.
JK- Relying on feeligns without the scientific method is useless as explained in my above post. GOD Bless!
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JK- Relying on feeligns without the scientific method is useless as explained in my above post. GOD Bless!
I wouldn't agree that it is "useless". I believe God created us with virtues intact, and that through the honesty to ourselves and submission to our Creator, that our moral radar becomes strong and clear within ourselves. It is only my point of view, God knows the truth of what is in my heart and I am content with that.
Peace,
Stitch
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peace neo. For those people they have covered up/disregarded/forgotton their intrinsic morality and real function/purpose in life,(because of their free-will and deliberate ignorance.)..Which is to live as peacefully as possible.(islam.) This disregarding is equivelant to the term 'kufr'(covering up the natural truth.) in the quran. Doesnt the quran say we have a natural inclination(fitrah.) to do good?
peace all. -
Peace all,
I believe our natural instinct to know right from wrong is limited plus the moral standards are time bound. There are various socieites and cultures in the world and MANY HAVE A DIFFERENT SENSE OF MORAL JUSTICE. Just as an example consider the "death penalty" which is accepted in some parts pf the world, like California, and rejected in others like most European countries. Previous generations sought it alright to marry even sisters and brothers but now this is incorrect. So there goes the natural instinct. Moreover the human being is BIASED TO GET WHAT GOES IN HIS FAVOR. For this reason we need scriptural guidance from GOD telling us exactly what to do as He has calculated each and evrything and so He knows what is best for us. The 2nd thing is to find that Message from GOD. For this wed use the scientific method and apply it to all claimed Divine scriptures available today and then see which sticks out the most. This way we can be sure with technically speaking more than 99.999% of the word of GOD. And as we now have code-19 the probability further increases like say 99.999999%. Note theres a great diff btw 99.999% and 99.999999%, greater than that btw 50% and 90%. I hope i made myself clear. GOD Bless!-
Your criterea for discerning god's word is entirely subjective and arbitrary. The existence of god does not necessitate that it adheres to the humane doctrine of proof.
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I agree with you that morality changes over the ages.
Is morality then absolute?
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Peace "enquirer",
peace neo. For those people they have covered up/disregarded/forgotton their intrinsic morality and real function/purpose in life,(because of their free-will and deliberate ignorance.)..Which is to live as peacefully as possible.(islam.) This disregarding is equivelant to the term 'kufr'(covering up the natural truth.) in the quran. Doesnt the quran say we have a natural inclination(fitrah.) to do good?
peace all.JK- I ahvent read anywhere in he Quran that man has an iherited inclination towards good. This is what the sunnis teach. Infact its quite the opposite. Mankind is argumentative by nature, is arrogant and egotistical. Only by studying things carefully through unbiased observation can he become successful and this I believe is the method GOD wants us to use. GOD Bless!
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Peace "enquirer",
peace neo. For those people they have covered up/disregarded/forgotton their intrinsic morality and real function/purpose in life,(because of their free-will and deliberate ignorance.)..Which is to live as peacefully as possible.(islam.) This disregarding is equivelant to the term 'kufr'(covering up the natural truth.) in the quran. Doesnt the quran say we have a natural inclination(fitrah.) to do good?
peace all.JK- I ahvent read anywhere in he Quran that man has an iherited inclination towards good. This is what the sunnis teach. Infact its quite the opposite. Mankind is argumentative by nature, is arrogant and egotistical. Only by studying things carefully through unbiased observation can he become successful and this I believe is the method GOD wants us to use. GOD Bless!
I disagree. I think evolution has designed us to be sociatal creatures.
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Peace "neo",
- Your criterea for discerning god's word is entirely subjective and arbitrary. The existence of god does not necessitate that it adheres to the humane doctrine of proof.
JK- As i said the scientific method is the only logical way. If GOD didnt want us to use the scientific method to find the Truth then i believe He didnt need to create all those complex atoms, no need for such a vast universe with similar heavenly bodies following similar laws allowing us to identify the substances by anaylising the em spectrum. On the contrary He could have just created us with empty bodies which had no heart, cells, brain or other organs. No i believe these things are there to ponder upon. Similar goes for the scriptures. GOD could have sent a scripture for our guidance and we need the scientific method to identify it. Also if we dont use the scientific method then everyone would just have equal probability of being right, be he christian jew hindu sunni shia etc.
- I agree with you that morality changes over the ages.
JK- Ok.
Is morality then absolute?
JK- No i believe its relative. But when a scripture from GOD comes telling us certain laws of which some refer to moraility then those become the standard for the time the scripture has been validated, which in case of the Quran would be till the end of the universe since it claims to be a completion of the Message. Yet the Qurn does NOT contain all laws pertaing to marality BUT, AS I BELIEVE, ONLY THE MOST IMPORTANT WHICH WOULD STAND OUT SIGNIFICANTLY TILL THE END OF THIS UNIVERSE. We can very well define our additional moral laws as long as they dont contradict GOD's Message which i believe to be the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Johny K
If god is to exist with the attributes listed in the Qur'an it would have to exist outside the scientifically observable universe, so how would you apply the scientific method to something that's beyond the sciences? Also, the scientific method is not the only logical path available to us. In fact, the scientific method is purely inductive whereas a perfect logical method is deductive.
If morality is relative then am I right in killing someone if I believe him to be evil?
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Peace "neo",
I disagree. I think evolution has designed us to be sociatal creatures.
JK- First of all evolution or not, it has to be setup by an Intelligent Source prior to our creation. Evolution designing anything doesnt make sense. Things resuting out of evolution is how it should be phrased. I believe in an intelligent and calculated evolution which lead to the rise of the universe, its laws and all things, living or non-living, in it. Now back to the point. You believe we were designed to be sociatal creatures and i agree with that. But we disregarded and became arrogant. Even according to ape-men evos, with whom i disagree on this point, mankind used to be uncivilized and viiolent at a time on earth with which i agree(Quran mentions after Adam and his wife fell from heaven humanity became enemies of each other, disputing, quarelling etc). IT WAS ONLY THROUGH THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD THAT OUR BECOMING SOCIATAL WAS ACHIEVED, once again. GOD Bless!
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Peace "neo",
I disagree. I think evolution has designed us to be sociatal creatures.
JK- First of all evolution or not, it has to be setup by an Intelligent Source prior to our creation. Evolution designing anything doesnt make sense. Things resuting out of evolution is how it should be phrased. I believe in an intelligent and calculated evolution which lead to the rise of the universe, its laws and all things, living or non-living, in it. Now back to the point. You believe we were designed to be sociatal creatures and i agree with that. But we disregarded and became arrogant. Even according to ape-men evos, with whom i disagree on this point, mankind used to be uncivilized and viiolent at a time on earth with which i agree(Quran mentions after Adam and his wife fell from heaven humanity became enemies of each other, disputing, quarelling etc). IT WAS ONLY THROUGH THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD THAT OUR BECOMING SOCIATAL WAS ACHIEVED, once again. GOD Bless!
The scientific method isn't really that old, maybe a few centuries? Civilisations existed for a long time prior to that (I think 10,000 BC is the favourite date at the moment.).
And of course I didn't mean evolution designed anything of will, I just didn't want to type all that out ^^. P