An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
-
peace
that 'the jinn' thing is symbolic doesn't make sense to me.
3871 For your Lord said to the Angels "I am creating a human being from clay."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My spirit, then you shall submit to him."
3873 The Angels submitted, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.So Satan was an angel and he became a jinn because he turned arrogant and disobeyed The Lord.
3876 He said "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay."
Thus, angels are created from fire. If jinns are symbolic then angels are also symbolic which just throws everything way off for me.
As I recall, we are to believe in the unseen, why are we to believe in them if they are not mentioned in the quran #1, and #2 why if they are just symbolic
22 This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and uphold the contact-method, and from Our provisions to them they spend.As I also recall from the Quran, the Angels pray for those here on earth, they glorify and praise the Lord of the Universe, and carry out certain commands, etc.....
Help me understand
God bless !
-
Peace,
You have to grasp the whole story, and use cross-reference. Also you have to look closely what the word sheitan, iblis, djinn, and malikah. So sjeitan was not an 'angel' , but a 'one in control/authority'. This gives a whole different approach to the concept. Sjeitan is also a classic arabic term for the evil side of man, which became concealed for man's senses.(djinn=concealed/hidden for man's senses) and is one of the things that can control us/have authority on our thinking. And these djinns are the ones like fire, the djinn of fire is always connected that our body is made out of matter. Our body is matter/dust/clay, our desires and ego are like fire. When djinn is called fire, it is always mentioned next to humans being made of clay, which directly refer that the sides of man which are concealed for them(djinn) are made out of fire/are like fire. So this refers only to THESE djinns/concealed things. And not all djinns that are mentioned in the Quran.
People leave these terms as titles, which they are certainly not. They are descriptions of several things. The word human directly refers to ONE species. But itself falls under the walking beings. Many things on earth fall under walking beings. The term djinn means something hidden/concealed for man's senses/ beings/things not directly seen. So this doesn't refer to ONE species, it gives a character description where a lot of things fall under. The same holds for malikah, which means ones in control/authority, which also refers to a lot of things and doesn't determine ONE species, but can denote several things/beings.
This is the biggest mistake people make with approaching the Quran.
Give me your mail, and i can send you a rough version of an article i'm busy with. Which may clearify things. You get it in a couple of weeks, you to KGB.
Peace
-
peace
Well the Quran is Complete, Full-detailed and perfect. And God doesn't play riddles of this magnitude to cause utter confusion (thats my belief)
To me it's pretty simple
Satan was an angel (the angels were asked to fall prostrate) Satan became a devil immediatedly because he disobeyed the lord of the universe. Just like you and I would become disbelievers if we disobeyed the Lord. That's how simple it is for me.
God Bless !
But I am certainly open to hear what you have to say
-
Peace,
I know it is a bit hard to percieve as you have to break away from what is filled in your subconciousness. So it is hard to remove that veil. I had that to in the beginning, and i kept repeating the same thing as you, till i saw what the words really meant in clear-cut arabic, and saw we have given the words titles/fixed meanings and that we dismiss the real meanings of the words.
Quote
Satan was an angel (the angels were asked to fall prostrate) Satan became a devil immediatedly because he disobeyed the lord of the universe. Just like you and I would become disbelievers if we disobeyed the Lord. That's how simple it is for me.satan means=long rope=distanced from God=rebel=evil side=ego
angel=one in control/authority=denotes several things=powers that are in control and beings that 'work' for God.
devil? jinn doesnt mean devil....jinn comes from J-N-N meaning something not seen/hidden. Like also in djenna, meaning the hidden garden.
so you would read it like this
evil side/ego has authority over us and became something concealed for our perception, which rebels against us and God, as God has created it to be so. It is part of our nature we have to learn to overcome. God warns us for our evil side.If you say satan is an angel that became a jinn, you are not following the arabic meaning as you keep the words as titles and don't translate their meanings. So you follow a fixed meaning and not the arabic.
We are warned for this in 2530
Mahjoor means desert/abonden , avoid, fetter/chain/fix position
A horse or camel tied head to foot was called mahjoor, and the rope used for tying, al-hijaar(Taj). Making the animal immobile, as it stuck in its position, where the owners will leave it. The Quran today is thus fettered/chained by custom and tradition, fixed titles and meanings of words, hearsay reports compiled centuries later, and laws and by-laws enacted by men, each group having its own fiqah and shariah, which are held more sacrosanct and given predence over the Quran, and making thus the Quran fixed in meaning, where they want, and how they want. Making the versatile meanings immobile, freezing a certain meaning, and chaining the Quran with that meaning.
So the one word ends up with three meanings and the verse should be translated like so
The prophet will say "O my Lord, my people have deserted this Reading, have treated it as something to be avoided and have fettered/ chained/fixed (understandings in the Reading)." (2530)
I know this all sounds a bit weird as we are taught different things. But we have to read the arabic, not the titles we give to certain words. I will send you the article i wrote in a couple of weeks as it needs some revising.
Peace bro
-
peace bro
in a sense we can agree that the titles need to be translated, but thats not my point my point is that the context surrounding these verses indicate (to me, i am only speaking of me) that this is an actual being.
My question to you is
Who was asked to fall prostrate?
Who didn't fall prostrate?
Are you saying both of these are subconsciouses?
727 "He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them."
By the way, I wish somebody would move this to the main boards, so we can get more views. I am very open-minded. And I would never be stubborn in my beliefs, if it weren't the absolute truth. Also, know my purpose is not at all to debate. Peace bro
-
Peace,
Like i said, it refers to being sometimes, and sometimes to non-beings. Plus the sujood is mostly used as to obey, and not literal falling on the ground. But in my artciel i can explain more.
-
ik75243 wrote
that 'the jinn' thing is symbolic doesn't make sense to me.u are perhaps aware of the traditional (shia/sunni) view!
apart from theirs, is the view of the ahmdaiyyas mirza ahmad, the founder of ahmadiyya beliefs, had claimed to be a messenger receiving revelations from god! he perhaps realised that people would ask miracles of him, so he set about re-interpreting the miracles mentioned in the quran, claiming the quran's description as being figurative (as in the case of christ), or explaining them as natural events (as in parting of the sea by moses)! checking the commentary against the text of quran, the distortion can be verified easily! -) 1 of his problems was djinns and tayr, as according to the quran, they were part of the army of solomon! so had anybody demanded of him a thing similar to solomon's armies, he would have been in a fix in view of the prevalent understanding of the verse! so what he did instead, was a re-interpretation of solomon's armies! thus, djinns of the army were wild tribes and tayr were cavalry! also, the commentary claims that the word has different meanings at different places!
another view is that of djinns being negative thoughts this had been explained to me by some hindus...according to them the entire quran is symbolic as well...they draw a comparison to the hindu epic called "ramayana"! "ram" is an archetype who represents the person on a journey or a person marching towards something! thus "ramayana" ram + ayana, journey/march of ram! similarly, according to them, "muhammad" is a model which has to be realised! as for the djinns being negative thoughts, they perhaps see it as a comparison to the "asuras" (demons)....the symbolic explanation of the churning of the oceans will help explain their understanding of djinns as negative emotions! prior to this forum, i had not heard this view expressed by anybody other than a minority from hindus!
these are the views i already knew (before visiting this forum)
but there is 1 understanding i dont remember having read anywhere before here that of djinns being reptiles! interestingly, there have been many legends around reptiles such as snakes and lizards! infact, according to the traditional view, djinns are believed to take the form of snakes! -S i believe this article is somewhere in the articles section, so u can check it out there! -)
so read the quran try to find ur own meaning, or choose from the above 4, or more if u are aware of! -)
as for myself, based on 5514-15, 1526-27, and 712, unless the description of creation of 'insaan' is figurative, there is no reason to believe the description of the creation of djinns is figurative! -)
-
Peace,
There were already people claiming the same as i told you already. You keep pointing out ahmedya's, but these only agree on it, but were not the people who formed the ideas on djinn and tair. There were already people in India saying this. This ideas are common knowledge on the indian and pakistani lands. Scholars as Saiyyad Sulaiman Nadvi, Dar al-Musannifin and Azamgarh aldo pointed these things out. Also Ibn Kathir mentiones that the Naml in sura 27 are a tribe and not real ants. These scholars lived hundreds of years before ahmedya, so refering to only ahmedya is ignorant. Parwez, Ahmed Ali, Muhammed Asad and Dr.Shabbir all agree on the same issue. All of these translators condemn Ahmedya's.
And jinn means beings/things not seen/are hidden/concealed. And is a description were a lot of things can fall under. Just a lot of things are seen beings/things, not just humans or one species. So there is more to it then the view based on tradition.
-
Peace Arnold Yasin
Let me add few lines here which are related to two documentries.
Winged Migration - The birds fly as far as 25,000 miles in search of food. These birds remember their path based on their memory. This is what the film maker understanding.
The March of Penguins - They are look alike and these birds recognize their partners with their voices. These birds must have somekind of language which they are communicating to each other which to us sounds like meaningless screams.
-
The bird hopoe can not fly over long distances..............
-
I thought you posted those things about birds because of the hopoe flying to the country of Sheba. If not, then please explain what you meant with these.
Plus i have sended my article to your mail.
-
There are people on this forum who are looking to verify the verses of Qur'an must watch these two documentaries. This will make you realise how true are the words of Allah (SWT).
638 There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
These birds have a very strong community ties with their own rules and regulations. They operate in a very systematic way. Travel as far as 25000 miles with a complete dicipline with older take the lead to guide the new born who are travelling for the first time. They have voices so they must have some kind of language to understand each other. Penguins even sellect their partners for one season and stick with them in that harsh and cold weather.
The honey bees are another good example of this verse. Signs of Allah (SWT) are everywhere so instead of wasting ones intelligence and energy on Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) messangership concentrate on simple signs all around you.
-
I read somewhere that 60% at least is language, and not just singing or making noise. The sounds really have complicated meanings some experts say that can be compared with human language almost...
-
I have read a lot on people getting brain hemirages and how they had to learn and understand language again all over. Sometimes these people could hear us speaking, but because they lost the meaning of the words, it didn't sound as language, but they described it as 'it was like people were talking as animals, i only heard sounds, it didn't even hear it as somebody was speaking a foreign language that i didn't understood. Their words were just loose sounds to me like animal sounds. It was so weird as i tried to grasp the words, but my brain only heard 'sounds' not 'words'. I could think, but not in words, only in 'knowing' things.'
Because of this, neurologists believe this is the reason we don't understand animals, are our brain never had the software to understand animals. As the person above lost his software to understand human language. This gave an interresting thought, not that we can understand animals, but that animal language can be as meaning full and diverse as human language and is highly underestimated.
As for the trust KGB, trust first can only be given before it can be earned.....
Peace
-
ik75243 wrote
that 'the jinn' thing is symbolic doesn't make sense to me.u are perhaps aware of the traditional (shia/sunni) view!
apart from theirs, is the view of the ahmdaiyyas mirza ahmad, the founder of ahmadiyya beliefs, had claimed to be a messenger receiving revelations from god! he perhaps realised that people would ask miracles of him, so he set about re-interpreting the miracles mentioned in the quran, claiming the quran's description as being figurative (as in the case of christ), or explaining them as natural events (as in parting of the sea by moses)! checking the commentary against the text of quran, the distortion can be verified easily! -) 1 of his problems was djinns and tayr, as according to the quran, they were part of the army of solomon! so had anybody demanded of him a thing similar to solomon's armies, he would have been in a fix in view of the prevalent understanding of the verse! so what he did instead, was a re-interpretation of solomon's armies! thus, djinns of the army were wild tribes and tayr were cavalry! also, the commentary claims that the word has different meanings at different places!
another view is that of djinns being negative thoughts this had been explained to me by some hindus...according to them the entire quran is symbolic as well...they draw a comparison to the hindu epic called "ramayana"! "ram" is an archetype who represents the person on a journey or a person marching towards something! thus "ramayana" ram + ayana, journey/march of ram! similarly, according to them, "muhammad" is a model which has to be realised! as for the djinns being negative thoughts, they perhaps see it as a comparison to the "asuras" (demons)....the symbolic explanation of the churning of the oceans will help explain their understanding of djinns as negative emotions! prior to this forum, i had not heard this view expressed by anybody other than a minority from hindus!
these are the views i already knew (before visiting this forum)
but there is 1 understanding i dont remember having read anywhere before here that of djinns being reptiles! interestingly, there have been many legends around reptiles such as snakes and lizards! infact, according to the traditional view, djinns are believed to take the form of snakes! -S i believe this article is somewhere in the articles section, so u can check it out there! -)
so read the quran try to find ur own meaning, or choose from the above 4, or more if u are aware of! -)
as for myself, based on 5514-15, 1526-27, and 712, unless the description of creation of 'insaan' is figurative, there is no reason to believe the description of the creation of djinns is figurative! -)
peace the God
so read the quran try to find ur own meaning, or choose from the above 4, or more if u are aware of! -)
thank you for the good advice
Yeah to me, in the Quranic sense djins are actual beings. And the whole 'allegory' thing can be used on any number of things. Shall we start an exercise of what's an allegory and what's not an allegory? How long till they make the Quran allegorical?( I understand there are some hindus who feel that way, as you said) To me the Quran is much simpler than this. God meant no hardship for us. And God only utters the truth another words no God wouldn't make it this complicated.
as for myself, based on 5514-15, 1526-27, and 712, unless the description of creation of 'insaan' is figurative, there is no reason to believe the description of the creation of djinns is figurative! -)
completely agree ! And a great point. Yeah shall we translate 'insaan' as well using it's root? What about abu lahab= father of fire. What's that an allegory of?
God bless !