The book of Jasher
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Peace
I came by this document. I dont know why i never paid attention to it before. but it is quite interresting.
http//www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/9.htm
Check out these parts
And Haran, the son of Terah, Abram's oldest brother, took a wife in those days.
Haran was thirty-nine years old when he took her; and the wife of Haran conceived and bare a son, and he called his name Lot.
And she conceived again and bare a daughter, and she called her name Milca; and she again conceived and bare a daughter, and she called her name Sarai.
Haran was forty-two years old when he begat Sarai, which was in the tenth year of the life of Abram; and in those days Abram and his mother and nurse went out from the cave, as the king and his subjects had forgotten the affair of Abram.
And when Abram came out from the cave, he went to Noah and his son Shem, and he remained with them to learn the instruction of the Lord and his ways, and no man knew where Abram was, and Abram served Noah and Shem his son for a long time.
And Abram was in Noah's house thirty-nine years, and Abram knew the Lord from three years old, and he went in the ways of the Lord until the day of his death, as Noah and his son Shem had taught him; and all the sons of the earth in those days greatly transgressed against the Lord, and they rebelled against him and they served other gods, and they forgot the Lord who had created them in the earth; and the inhabitants of the earth made unto themselves, at that time, every man his god; gods of wood and stone which could neither speak, hear, nor deliver, and the sons of men served them and they became their gods.
And the king and all his servants, and Terah with all his household were then the first of those that served gods of wood and stone.
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And Terah had twelve gods of large size, made of wood and stone, after the twelve months of the year, and he served each one monthly, and every month Terah would bring his meat offering and drink offering to his gods; thus did Terah all the days.
And all that generation were wicked in the sight of the Lord, and they thus made every man his god, but they forsook the Lord who had created them.
And there was not a man found in those days in the whole earth, who knew the Lord (for they served each man his own God) except Noah and his household, and all those who were under his counsel knew the Lord in those days.
And Abram the son of Terah was waxing great in those days in the house of Noah, and no man knew it, and the Lord was with him.
And the Lord gave Abram an understanding heart, and he knew all the works of that generation were vain, and that all their gods were vain and were of no avail.
And Abram saw the sun shining upon the earth, and Abram said unto himself Surely now this sun that shines upon the earth is God, and him will I serve.
And Abram served the sun in that day and he prayed to him, and when evening came the sun set as usual, and Abram said within himself, Surely this cannot be God?
And Abram still continued to speak within himself, Who is he who made the heavens and the earth? who created upon earth? where is he?
And night darkened over him, and he lifted up his eyes toward the west, north, south, and east, and he saw that the sun had vanished from the earth, and the day became dark.
And Abram saw the stars and moon before him, and he said, Surely this is the God who created the whole earth as well as man, and behold these his servants are gods around him and Abram served the moon and prayed to it all that night.
And in the morning when it was light and the sun shone upon the earth as usual, Abram saw all the things that the Lord God had made upon earth.
And Abram said unto himself Surely these are not gods that made the earth and all mankind, but these are the servants of God, and Abram remained in the house of Noah and there knew the Lord and his ways' and he served the Lord all the days of his life, and all that generation forgot the Lord, and served other gods of wood and stone, and rebelled all their days.
well it has left me gobsmacked. Could this be part of the injeel? It was (obviously) surpressed by the church fathers.
Abraham the student of Noah?
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Peace,
These stories are mostly made up and based on legends. There are thousands of those books. The book of adam and eve, the vision of enoch, so on and so on. And they tries to connect all the prophets together. In my theology study, we come across these stories in the hundreds, all claiming something special.
These stories were originaly made in synagogues. In the time before the compilation of the Tenach(Old Testament). Every synagogue had their own scriptures, from holy scriptures to their own 'history' scriptures. The history scriptures were mostly combined legends, and the opinion of the storyteller who wrote it down. There was no investigation or check up of it was true or not, as if it contained some wisdom, why not tell it in this way? Also people always had questions about the prophets, and these stories were made to accomodate to the demand, as well that they didn't want to admit the priests didn't knew something. So to fill in the gaps, they linked the prophets, while some lived 400 years earlier then the other. In this way, the old ages of certain sages came about in the scriptures.
People learned from them, it was entertaining and the rabbis didn't loose their status, so everything was fine, and they feel they were not commiting a crime by making up the story. Around 500BC, a lot of headpriests, wanted to collect all the scriptures and history stories, to make one collection, approved by them, to stop this forgery. So made a summary of the stories they felt were ok, and discarted the rest, making them 'forbidden'. Instead of keeping all the manuscripts seperate, they combined and edited the stories to make it one big story. This made for example Genesis. Genesis is made up out of at least 8 different manuscripts, that were telling the same story, but each missing something or having something extra. So they edited it into one story. Normaly the story of creation, the story of adam, the story of noach, the story of abraham, were all different stories on different manuscripts. Now they were put together to form what is now, Genesis. This explains the contradictions, as well why it is in a telling form, as witnessing the events from a movie-viewer point of view. So they mixed the real revelations(which also contained faults already) together with the history stories(their hadith), and so was most of what we know now as the Bible formed.
This story you posted now, is one of the history stories that were made 'obselete' and were not allowed anymore to be told, as the new edited collection replaced it, and filled in the demand of the peoples. Of course not all history stories were lost, and they became 'secret knowledge', secret manuscripts that people felt were special, and keeped copying them, as treating them as revelation, while they were just made-up/combined stories out of legends and the storytellers ideas. So this story you posted now, is a non-sense mixed with legend, as noach and abraham lived at least 200-400 years(if i'm correct, even more) apart from each other. Also the 'age' given to noach in the Quran refers to the message of noach that remained with the people, and doesn't mean he really became that old.
I hope i've answered your question, as well shown to you, this is a mostly a fake story but contains some true elements, as it was made up partialy out of real legends. It was normal to link the prophet's to each other, as to fill in the gaps, as well to make sure none was forgotten. And part of the story, is confirmed in the Quran about abram's quest for God. So don't take it to seriously.
Peace
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Peace,
These stories are mostly made up and based on legends. There are thousands of those books. The book of adam and eve, the vision of enoch, so on and so on. And they tries to connect all the prophets together. In my theology study, we come across these stories in the hundreds, all claiming something special.
These stories were originaly made in synagogues. In the time before the compilation of the Tenach(Old Testament). Every synagogue had their own scriptures, from holy scriptures to their own 'history' scriptures. The history scriptures were mostly combined legends, and the opinion of the storyteller who wrote it down. There was no investigation or check up of it was true or not, as if it contained some wisdom, why not tell it in this way? Also people always had questions about the prophets, and these stories were made to accomodate to the demand, as well that they didn't want to admit the priests didn't knew something. So to fill in the gaps, they linked the prophets, while some lived 400 years earlier then the other. In this way, the old ages of certain sages came about in the scriptures.
People learned from them, it was entertaining and the rabbis didn't loose their status, so everything was fine, and they feel they were not commiting a crime by making up the story. Around 500BC, a lot of headpriests, wanted to collect all the scriptures and history stories, to make one collection, approved by them, to stop this forgery. So made a summary of the stories they felt were ok, and discarted the rest, making them 'forbidden'. Instead of keeping all the manuscripts seperate, they combined and edited the stories to make it one big story. This made for example Genesis. Genesis is made up out of at least 8 different manuscripts, that were telling the same story, but each missing something or having something extra. So they edited it into one story. Normaly the story of creation, the story of adam, the story of noach, the story of abraham, were all different stories on different manuscripts. Now they were put together to form what is now, Genesis. This explains the contradictions, as well why it is in a telling form, as witnessing the events from a movie-viewer point of view. So they mixed the real revelations(which also contained faults already) together with the history stories(their hadith), and so was most of what we know now as the Bible formed.
This story you posted now, is one of the history stories that were made 'obselete' and were not allowed anymore to be told, as the new edited collection replaced it, and filled in the demand of the peoples. Of course not all history stories were lost, and they became 'secret knowledge', secret manuscripts that people felt were special, and keeped copying them, as treating them as revelation, while they were just made-up/combined stories out of legends and the storytellers ideas. So this story you posted now, is a non-sense mixed with legend, as noach and abraham lived at least 200-400 years(if i'm correct, even more) apart from each other. Also the 'age' given to noach in the Quran refers to the message of noach that remained with the people, and doesn't mean he really became that old.
I hope i've answered your question, as well shown to you, this is a mostly a fake story but contains some true elements, as it was made up partialy out of real legends. It was normal to link the prophet's to each other, as to fill in the gaps, as well to make sure none was forgotten. And part of the story, is confirmed in the Quran about abram's quest for God. So don't take it to seriously.
Peace
I dont take it too seriously at all. It was a good answer and pretty close to my own conclution after looking at it some more. This is how all relegious scriptures come into being. Only with the Quran they had a clean slate to work with, and to counter claims from people in the know who where allready commenting negatively on the Bible works, the verse was added ;" the hypocrates will claim this is but storys of old"...IT IS storys of old, only hypocrates would deny this fact.
Im still looking for the injeel. It makes no sense that a work would be "revealed" just to dissapear, when im told to belive in what it says.
Just out of curiosity, what makes you certain that Abraham and Noah excisted at all?
peace
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Peace,
Because the Quran confirms them both. For me the Quran is proven, so i take it as true. Secondly, legends about people do have some true origins somewhere, so even though 90% of the legends about certain persons are lies, still there is a core of truth in them. It is the same with Mohammed. But the only criterion is the Quran, and that is why i started to study Theology. To see what would pass the Quran and science and what not. So i'm still busy with forming a scientific theory on these prophets based on the Quran and scientific research on history, on what there real story and position in society were.
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Peace,
Because the Quran confirms them both. For me the Quran is proven, so i take it as true. Secondly, legends about people do have some true origins somewhere, so even though 90% of the legends about certain persons are lies, still there is a core of truth in them. It is the same with Mohammed. But the only criterion is the Quran, and that is why i started to study Theology. To see what would pass the Quran and science and what not. So i'm still busy with forming a scientific theory on these prophets based on the Quran and scientific research on history, on what there real story and position in society were.
It sounds very interresting, im looking forward to see that.
I view this to be the case with all scripture. So im not saying that the storys are bad or that i dont take them seriously, in fact i do. Very much so. But i view it as a waste of time to discuss actual history or geneology of the prophets. We cant know, we werent there to confirm. These storys have been refined through atleast 6000 years of known history. We must give our ancestors some credit
peace
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Peace,
I read through the link and to some follow-up pages...This is no different from the jiberish found in the Jewish Torah today...I say
jibberishbecause if you read on it goes on to say how Lot slept with his daughters, how Abraham (who was not scared of being thrown in the fire) was scared from Pharoah and told his wife to pretend she was his sister so he would not be killed...How Abraham abondons Hajar in the wilderness because of the jeolosy of Sarah...How Abraham is circumcised at age 80, etc..What is not verified by the Quran is not from the original Injeel/Torah...That is the rule of thumb I would use.
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Peace,
I read through the link and to some follow-up pages...This is no different from the jiberish found in the Jewish Torah today...I say
jibberishbecause if you read on it goes on to say how Lot slept with his daughters, how Abraham (who was not scared of being thrown in the fire) was scared from Pharoah and told his wife to pretend she was his sister so he would not be killed...How Abraham abondons Hajar in the wilderness because of the jeolosy of Sarah...How Abraham is circumcised at age 80, etc..Peace
all the above is also what the sunni believe, i guess they picked it up from the jews
What is not verified by the Quran is not from the original Injeel/Torah...That is the rule of thumb I would use.
Exactly
