Jesus Return
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Salam Arnold!
Yea I think you're translation of that aya made more sense... Gazak Allah kheir !
So what do you think of the notion that if he never tasted death, then he would have to come again to go thru that... ?
Peace to all -
See also
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/ReturnOfJesus.htm
http//www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdf -
Peace,
Where does it say he never tasted death, that goes against the Quran as the Qurann says that EVERYONE must taste death, so that means everyone. If you say about the verse that Jesus was 'taken up', that also has been translated wrong, as it says Jesus was raised in status, not in body. He survived the crucifixion, that is why he wasn't crucified, as you have to die tehn, if i excecute you, and you live, then i haven't excecuted you. I tried too that is all. This is exactly what the Quran is telling us, Jesus lived, the crucifixion was a hoax, just to get the authority and his enemies of his back. Read the book please. As it contains all the answers you need...
Peace
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Salam Arnold
Acutally the quran specifically states that Jesus was never killed nor crucified. It states it three times in one aya.
Please refer to 4157
The next aya gives the true account of what happened
4158 " NAY! Allah raised him up UNTO HIMSELF and Allah is Exalted in Power, Most-Wise"
"bal raffaaho Allaho ELEIHI w kan Allaho Aazizan Hakima."
BAL(nay) negates. So God is saying NO that's not true! - Jesus was not crucified or killed what happened was We raised him to Us!
Eleih means onto something, in this case onto Allah. It has NO OTHER meaning. It is a preposition and is very clear. the phrase to raise in status = rafaa'a makaaaman. The word makaam is nowhere to be seen. This phrase is used many times in the quran but not in this aya.This subject also arises in 355. Again Allah says
Again, nothing about status. The phrase is the same once again. wa rafaaoka eleyy - to raise onto Me.
You need a really good arabic dictionary to cross reference words you're not sure about.Therefore, Jesus never tasted death. So although it isn't clearly stated in the quran, we can logically infer that somehow Jesus has to come back to die a natural death. It's a prophecy PERHAPS implied in the quran and only God knows for sure
Salam -
First let me say thank you a million times for your link to this article and introducing me to Akbarally Meherally.
I have so far gotten thru about two thirds of the article, and was so impressed with it, I went and found this guy's site and sent him my greetings and appreciation for his work, as just about everything I have read so far I have seen in framented pieces during my journey, and to find them all in one article, and much more, is just nothing less than a reward from Allah.
Secondly, I wanted to comment on this notion of the death of Jesus. We do know from the Quran that Jesus's life was "terminated" it is the same word used for the termination of each of our lives.
Akbarally Meherally's quotes Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood who writes in The Mysteries of Jesus "One could argue, alternatively, that what is meant is that even though
Jesus did die in the earthly sense, he was not overcome by death, and
through the action of God he became the sign pointing the way to the
everlasting life for all believers. For example, Ahmadiyya sectarians
usually not regarded as Muslim at all - took the view that Jesus was
crucified, but that he did not die as a result. They suggested that he
survived the ordeal and was resuscitated in the coolness of the tomb. He
then recovered, and lived on long enough to travel as far afield as
Kashmir, where he married and had children, and in due course died. The
tomb of this person can be seen to this day at a shrine called the Rozabel
in Srinagar. Certainly the shrine, grave and legend exist, but the
documentary evidence for the Jesus who came there in tenuous in the
extreme."I think this article our dear brother has posted the link to should be required reading for this thread.
Peace be upon each of your hearts...
Dow
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Peace,
I predicted you already you were gonna use these verses. Read my post again....
Ok lets see what those verses really say using crossreference
In 4157 God tells that THEY didn't kill them, it doesn't say that if he died on earth or not, it says that the people who tried to kill him, didn't kill him.
4157 And for claiming, ?We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah?s Messenger.? They never killed him and never crucified him. But it appeared so to them and the matter remained dubious to them. Those who hold conflicting views on this issue are indeed confused. They have no real knowledge but they are following mere conjecture. Very certainly, they never killed him.
Ok, now let's see the next verse that is the so-called proof for his 'rise' to heaven
4158 Nay, Allah exalted him unto Himself. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
Ok, let's look at 355
When God said "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing .Ahmed Ali 55. When God said "O Jesus, I will take you to Myself and exalt you, and rid you of the infidels, and hold those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. You have then to come back to Me when I will judge between you in what you were at variance."
Free Minds God said "O Jesus, I will let you die, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who rejected until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me is your return so I will judge between all of you in what it was that you disputed."
QXP "O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court and I will clear you of the slander of the disbelievers. I will cause those who truly follow you to dominate the rejecters until the Day of Resurrection. Eventually, all of you will return to Me, then I will judge among you about what you used to differ."
JM Rodwell Remember when God said, "O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection. Then, to me i
Asad Lo! God said "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.
3 55, where God says to Jesus, "Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me." The verb rafa ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him" has always, whenever the act of raf? ("elevating" of a human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting". Nowhere in the Qur?an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace - a blessing in which all prophets partake, as is evident from 19 57, where the verb rafa nahu ("We exalted him" is used with regard to the Prophet Idris. (See also Muhammad ?Abduh in Manar III, 316 f., and VI, 20f.) The "nay" (bal) at the beginning of the sentence is meant to stress the contrast between the belief of the Jews that they had put Jesus to a shameful death on the cross and the fact of God's having "exalted him unto Himself".
Rashad Khalifa 1957 We raised him to an honorable rank.
Transliteration 1957 WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan355 Ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhirukamina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheenaittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmialqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumubaynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona
You need to use the Quran as crossrefernce.......
The Qur'an does not say that Jesus was raised up in body. 4157 describes
that he was saved from the Cross. 355 points to his physical death, absolving
him of all slander and honoring him. Raf?a here means raising him in honor, and
not in body. 1933 again tells of his physical death. Further 3144 reads,
"Muhammad is but a Messenger. Messengers before him have passed away."
Most explicitly 2134 states, "We have not granted immortality to any person
before you." And if God is Omnipresent, ascension to Him becomes
meaningless.- There was peace on me the day I was born, and will be the day I die, and on the day I will be raised from the dead."
There is no clue in the Quran that gives any notion that Jesus will come back. This idea can only come through traditions that are corrupted by Christain doctrine. They have found thousands of excuses to hold this base-less tradition in honour. Evading the Quranic truth by saying he has not died yet, he will die before judgement day and so on. All because of a non-Quranic thinking. The traditions that give us these doctrines were all written down by persians, who believed that their king is the son of God, and of course the christians. Almost all scholars of the first centuries had christian, persian or jewish backgrounds. This can be clearly seen by all the jewish laws in the hadith, the exalting of Muhammed as he were a persian king and the myths as the coming of Jesus from the Christians. You have to remember that they tried to keep as much of their old traditions into Islam, so anything that had only a small doubt was kept. They had to loose the trinity, the crucifixion, but they could keep the accension by just ignoring the use of the same word in 1933. Why then does nobody believes Idris was taking up to heaven? Because there was no-one that had those ideas to defend to keep them when the Quran came. Think about this, if the triniterians didn't believe Jesus was coming back, certainly the muslims wouldn't had believed it also. Without the influence of triniterian thinking, this dogma wouldn't had be present in Islam.
Muhammad is but a messenger, all messengers before him have passed away. If he dies or gets killed, will you turn back? (3144).
AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the apostles have passed away before him if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels?* But he that turns about on his heels can in no wise harm God - whereas God will requite all who are grateful .
3144 Mohammed is no more than an Apostle; the other Apostles have already deceased before him If he die therefore, or be slain, will ye turn back on your heels? But he who turneth back on his heels, will not hurt God at all; and God will surely reward the thankful.
3144
Transliteration Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu afa-in mata aw qutila inqalabtum AAala aAAqabikum waman yanqalib AAala AAaqibayhi falan yadurra Allaha shay-an wasayajzee Allahu alshshakireena
Literal And Mohammad is not except a messenger, had passed/expired from before him the messengers, so if he died, or (he was) killed, you turned/returned on your heels , and whom turns/returns, on his two heels, so he will never/not harm God, a thing, and God will reward the thankful/grateful.
Pickthal Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
Arberry Muhammad is naught but a Messenger; Messengers have passed away before him. Why, if he should die or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? If any man should turn about on his heels, he will not harm God in any way; and God will recompense the thankful.
Shakir And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
QXP Muhammad is but a Messenger. All Messengers before him have passed on. If he died or were slain, would you turn back on your heels? The System he has established is here to stay and to become a Beacon of Light for all humanity. If anyone turns away, he would not harm Allah. Allah will soon reward the appreciative. They will reap the fruit of the Benevolent System and then in the Hereafter.
George Sale Mohammed is no more than an Apostle; the other Apostles have already deceased before him If he die therefore, or be slain, will ye turn back on your heels? But he who turneth back on his heels, will not hurt God at all; and God will surely reward the thankful.
JM Rodwell Muhammad is no more than an apostle;the other apostles have already passed away before him if he die, therefore, or be slain, will ye turn upon your heels? But he who turneth on his heels shall not injure God at all And God will certainly reward the thankfull
Also the Quran give other hints
Jesus the son of Mary was only a messenger. All messengers before him have passed on (575)
Is the Qur'an not sufficient for these people? (2951).
You will never find change in the Laws of Allah (4823) (Bodily ascension is not a Law of Allah. Returning from heaven to this world too, is not His law).
The Qur'an states "Allah does not change the condition of a nation unless they bring about a change in their psychology." (1311)
Please stop here and think for a moment why Mehdi and
Jesus would come to change the condition of a nation or
nations? Doesn't this dogma collide with a rock solid law of
the Qur'an?While God is Omni-present the rising of Jesus in body above the skies and seating himself on the right hand of God makes no sense. It confines God to some place in the heavens. It also gives a man like image to God. This picture is obviously Biblical. It is certainly not Quranic (ref Dr Maurice Bucaille and of course commonsense).
Please watch the following pointed questions thrown by people especially at the Muslim youth
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Do you believe that Jesus was born without a father? The Muslim says, "Yes".
The Qur'an says that even God won't have a son since he has no consort (Saheba) (6101)
(Likewise how could Mary have a son without a husband!) -
Do you believe that Jesus was given many miracles one of which was raising the dead to life? The answer from the Muslim is again a solid "Yes".
(Here the Qur'an in fact means awakening of people.) -
Do you admit that Jesus is alive in the heavens while Mohammad is buried in the ground. "Of course, yes", says the Muslim. (Wrong interpretation by the mullah of 355 under Biblical influence.)
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Now, don't you have faith in Jesus's coming in the final hour to rectify problems of mankind and to restore order in the world. Also, that he will kill the Antichrist. The Muslim responds, "Of course I do believe in all this (junk). How can I be a Muslim if I don't??" (The mullah has taught the Muslim masses exactly as above).
SIR SYED AHMED KHAN
(1817 to 189
JESUS WAS NEVER RAISED TO HEAVEN.
That great wizard of a genius was a commentator of the Qur'an par excellence. Follow his pen,
"Our (Muslim) commentators of the Qur'an have blindly followed the Christian traditions to concoct such Ahadith. These so-called experts have assigned totally erroneous meaning to "Rafaa" or the raising of the prophets Jesus (355) and Enoch (1956). The Qur'an absolutely does not portray the raising of these prophets bodily up into the heavens. It describes raising them in honor. The prophecies of the coming of Mehdi and Messiah have been introduced into our history by non-Muslims. The Qur'an is absolutely free of these ridiculous statements. (Ref. Tafseer vol.I part 7 pg 123 and vol 2 several pages).MUFTI SHEIKH MUHAMMAD ABDUH
(1849 to 1906)
The celebrated scholar of Islam, Mohammad Sheikh Abduh of Egypt maintains that the stories of a living Jesus in the heavens and his second coming were inserted into our Ahadith centuries ago by Christian scholars so that Christianity may seem to be superior to Islam.Think carefully why you believe this. On what is it based? Not on the Quran. Because then you also have to believe Idris is coming back. But then you would contradict the verses that state clearly Jesus died and that no messenger had not died before Muhammed. This is completly based on hadith, which is against the Quran.
Peace
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Peace,
Jahwolf, no problemo. This guys work is outstanding. I study Theology myself on the Amsterdam University, and i was myself busy with writing something like this, till i came across this book. I dropped my pen as it was not neccesary anymore to write something. He did it all.... I really respect this guys insight. He doesn't follow the Quran alone completly, but he is against non-sense which i highly respect him for. Together with these people we can change Islam back to its old colours and status. A system without any non-sense or myths, but totaly based on taqwa and progress.
Also please read this short book, you will find it interresting
http//www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdf -
Arnold
Thank you for the link to Dr. Shabbir Ahmed's paper. My wife and I read it with a lot of laughter as his sense of humor is a wonderful addition to the subject matter of such a depth of concern for me facing the results of an administration that has been exposed as being driven by the very heart of messanic beliefs.
While I think he needs to edit this article a bit more as I saw it was recently edited, he is well on the way to a publication that could indeed rock the masses toward our Quran Alone movement. If I could suggest that he would provide a bit more commentary during the lists of contridictory hadith.
Arnold, I am so glad that God has moved me from the Why Islam forum, back to Free-Minds, where I have met you, and that He has moved you to direct me to the links you have. They have made my single day off in 14 a wonderful souce of information that I will be able to think about during my next 14 days on.
I will check in from time to time in my next round of slavery to see what is going on, but I will have to eagerly wait until my next wonderful day off to give some of the subject matter you have presented to me the attention it certainly deserves.
Thank you again for your time here on this site, Peace be upon your heart, and may God reward you for your continued efforts to enlighten us all from your search for the truth.
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Peace,
I'm glad it made you smile and think as it did also with me. I can also really recommend his translation avaible on his site, just go to www.ourbeacon.com and to the books section were you can download or read them for free. God bless you and your wife, and yes indeed may God guides us all more.
If there is anything, just ask......Peace... )
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See also
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/ReturnOfJesus.htm
http//www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdfThank you for these links, I glanced at the first one, and indeed it appears to be worth reading before we get into any serious discussion of this subject, unfortunatly I need some time off from my studies for a bit, and will make every attempt to read these before I post any of my thoughts about this subject.
Did you read the links yet that brother Arnold has posted? If you have not yet, you are missing out on two of the best articles I have ever read.
Peace be upon your heart
Dow
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does it really matters to you and me if jesus returns or not? Is it not enough that he was a prophet, he got a peaceful message and he is not among us any more.
Is it not his message that is important and following his message will benefitt us and not other extra beliefs.
Y do all these religious people have to be involved in gullible matters? whether they r christains, muslims or jews.
was all those messengers not for to make human life peacefull.What i need to know is that what difference wud it make if we find out that JEsus will return or not.
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Peace,
The only discussion was if it can be based on the Quran if Jesus would return or not, and this is not true. Only from the hadith people can get this. That was the discussion. And yes, the Quran mentiones also Jesus's dead and getting children, getting grey hair, and oh yeah, that he died before Muhammed......
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Peace be upon your hearts
I asked the question at the beggining of the thread mainly because I am confused about the issue.
I once was a bible believing Christian, that bought into the ideas of Jesus Return from the traditions of the Christian Church.
It is a very important issue to Christians, almost as important as the idea of the Human sacrifice for the atonement of sins.
The evolutionary process that I went thru that finally culminated in becoming a revert, was long and very painful.
After Arnold introduced me to Akbarally Meherally, i was in for more pain in discovering the truth that Jesus in NOT coming back, and very probably died in France, after having a daughter.
The sword of the truth cuts both ways, it free's us from the evil associated with believing lies, but cuts deeply into my heart where I thought I knew the truth about issues like Jesus' return.
So I hope that answers your question, why it is such an important issue. I have a lot more to say about this but I like short posts.
Peace
Dow
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Peace,
I'm glad it made you smile and think as it did also with me. I can also really recommend his translation avaible on his site, just go to www.ourbeacon.com and to the books section were you can download or read them for free. God bless you and your wife, and yes indeed may God guides us all more.
If there is anything, just ask......Peace...
Salamun Alaykum,
From Dr. Shabir Ahmed's Translation (page 11) The use of (S) after the name of prophet Muhammad should be read as
?Our salutes to him?.
Do we have to "salute" prophet Muhammad? Does this have basis in AQ? -
See also
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/ReturnOfJesus.htm
http//www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdfSalam...
The link http//www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdf is not working.
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Salam...
The link http//www.ourbeacon.com/Messiah.pdf is not working.
Try http//ourbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/admin2/2007/08/messiah.pdf
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Salamun Alaykum,
From Dr. Shabir Ahmed's Translation (page 11) The use of (S) after the name of prophet Muhammad should be read as
?Our salutes to him?.
Do we have to "salute" prophet Muhammad? Does this have basis in AQ?No. Dead men need no salutes.
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Peace JahsWolf, All
Peace be upon your hearts
I asked the question at the beggining of the thread mainly because I am confused about the issue.
I once was a bible believing Christian, that bought into the ideas of Jesus Return from the traditions of the Christian Church.
It is a very important issue to Christians, almost as important as the idea of the Human sacrifice for the atonement of sins.
The evolutionary process that I went thru that finally culminated in becoming a revert, was long and very painful.
After Arnold introduced me to Akbarally Meherally, i was in for more pain in discovering the truth that Jesus in NOT coming back, and very probably died in France, after having a daughter.
The sword of the truth cuts both ways, it free's us from the evil associated with believing lies, but cuts deeply into my heart where I thought I knew the truth about issues like Jesus' return.
So I hope that answers your question, why it is such an important issue. I have a lot more to say about this but I like short posts.
Peace
Dow
Arnold Yasin has already done a great job, as well as the authors of those pages. I can add that even in the Bible (not sure if its in any of those links), it refutes that Jesus died at all, its all conjecture. From what I have gathered from Naiks talks, Jews dont go an oil a dead person. Jesus went in disguise to hide from Roman soldiers in fear of his life and dressed as a gardener. All the crucifixtion details are second hand accounts, which is why they all thought he was dead. Mary on the other hand knew that he was alive, since she would visit his tomb.
Peace