What is DIVINE (GOD'S WORDS)?
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Can anyone explain what is DIVINE as per our current etymology to live a righteous life without basing the need of Quran AS PER OUR TIMES?
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Hi Danish,
Could u elaborate ur question?
Peace!
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Peace be upon you,
Yes, please elaborate
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Peace 'peacefulmuslim' and Kyle,
Can anyone explain what is DIVINE as per our current etymology to live a righteous life without basing the need of Quran AS PER OUR TIMES?
What I meant was, keeping the scriptural tales aside, how does one know that whatever one does or says IS DIVINE (directly from GOD) as per his/her given circumstance to judge whether the course of action and/or narration upheld is righteous?
Let me relate an example and see if anyone can come up with rightfully allocating wealth as per the following circumstance
A family of three currently living in California; father (dead), mother (retired, has $25,000 in liquid assets and receives a steady flow of pension/social security), a son (married, well established, both employed, living separately, has $30,000 in debts) and daughter (divorced, unemployed, broke and living with mother in hopeless conditions).Given the above scenario, let?s make a side-by-side evaluation/comparison
- Demonstrate distribution as per Quran? (411-12).
- Demonstrate distribution by your own measures, if not by 1? In other words, what YOU think would be the best course of action in this case?
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Peace be upon you,
I dont have the knowledge to answer that question, but someone who studies finances might be able to assist.
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Peace be upon you,
Look under the "objective truth" thread. There is a post there about Divine Law/Truth.
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Peace be upon you,
I dont have the knowledge to answer that question, but someone who studies finances might be able to assist.
My first paragraphic question was very simple and straightforward to answer, if you or anyone may care to answer?
If you or anyone has a thorough and precise knowledge of what 411-12 is talking about, then I'm sure anyone who believes in the 1400+ old alleged "Allah's words" (Quran) can explain my point 1 above as consistent and accurate as per the verse (keeping in mind that it is Allah's Words and one must abide by it).
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to answer my point 2, and has nothing to do with Quran, which I presume you are capable to answer with reflection/thought that doesn't need a math wiz. Can you please?
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Peace be upon you,
Look under the "objective truth" thread. There is a post there about Divine Law/Truth.
Yes, Kyle, I understand the difference between truth and fact. Simply put, a truth is not necessarily a fact but a fact must be the truth, yes? With that said, can you answer the paragraphic question first put above?
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Hi Danish,
What I meant was, keeping the scriptural tales aside, how does one know that whatever one does or says IS DIVINE (directly from GOD) as per his/her given circumstance to judge whether the course of action and/or narration upheld is righteous?
Now, let me ask u. Would u consider righteousness divine or sinful?
Would u consider honesty divine or sinful?
Would u consider kindness divine or sinful?The answer is quite obvious, isnt it?
Let me relate an example and see if anyone can come up with rightfully allocating wealth as per the following circumstance
A family of three currently living in California; father (dead), mother (retired, has $25,000 in liquid assets and receives a steady flow of pension/social security), a son (married, well established, both employed, living separately, has $30,000 in debts) and daughter (divorced, unemployed, broke and living with mother in hopeless conditions).
Given the above scenario, let?s make a side-by-side evaluation/comparison- Demonstrate distribution as per Quran? (411-12).
- Demonstrate distribution by your own measures, if not by 1? In other words, what YOU think would be the best course of action in this case?
Now this is getting complicated confused
Well, my answer will be follow the divine principles to do the right thing in this case.Peace!
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What I meant was, keeping the scriptural tales aside, how does one know that whatever one does or says IS DIVINE (directly from GOD)
When no one but God claims to be the Author then it is really simple, He must be the one who authored it because no one came forward and challenged Him that He is not the Author
as per his/her given circumstance to judge whether the course of action and/or narration upheld is righteous?
Yeh using your human logic then a desperate and repeated offender thief must always be forgiven because he is always desperate, the point here sir that action we told to do in the Quran for any circumstance, is told to us by a God not by a human, so the ones who don?t believe God (like ya) surely the Quran will sound human for them, because the existence of God does not exist in their sick minds
Let me relate an example and see if anyone can come up with rightfully allocating wealth as per the following circumstance
A family of three currently living in California; father (dead), mother (retired, has $25,000 in liquid assets and receives a steady flow of pension/social security), a son (married, well established, both employed, living separately, has $30,000 in debts) and daughter (divorced, unemployed, broke and living with mother in hopeless conditions).Given the above scenario, lets make a side-by-side evaluation/comparison
- Demonstrate distribution as per Quran? (411-12).
Ok, but after you specify what we are distributing exactly, then I can tell you how it should be distributed according to Allah divine Laws in the Quran
- Demonstrate distribution by your own measures, if not by 1? In other words, what YOU think would be the best course of action in this case?
After you specify what is the inheritance amount I may look at this question as a human, but you know I?m the type of human who does not trust my nature as a human so I will always take what the God says over what I say
See, I don?t have a man made god that I made to myself according to my low desires
Salam
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Peace be upon you Danish,
how does one know that whatever one does or says IS DIVINE (directly from GOD) as per his/her given circumstance to judge whether the course of action and/or narration upheld is righteous?
If what you say is TRUTH, meaning it can be verified through experience/testing, then it is Divine. Regarding your actions, they must simply follow the Divine Word. "...and the word became flesh.." - to quote another book.
Yes, Kyle, I understand the difference between truth and fact. Simply put, a truth is not necessarily a fact but a fact must be the truth, yes?
A truth is based on abstract relativity, it relies on the interconnected ness of all things which gives us a means to MEASURE truth, not just guess at it. A fact does not have to have anything else with it. Read the other thread I suggested for more info on that.
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When no one but God claims to be the Author then it is really simple, He must be the one who authored it because no one came forward and challenged Him that He is not the Author
Peace Ahmed,
that is an extremely bad excuse. And i'm pretty sure you know it.
Anyone who doesn't believe the quran came directly from God believes that it was the work of a guy commonly known as Muhammad who live a 1000+ years ago.
That dead person cannot come up to us and claim to be the author. That does not mean that we assume the quran is from God.After you specify what is the inheritance amount I may look at this question as a human, but you know I?m the type of human who does not trust my nature as a human so I will always take what the God says over what I say
You are forgetting that God created you too. If the Quran is from God, then you are too. And so is your conscience. God doesn't have to speak in words (let alone arabic). God speaks to us directly through ourselves and the world around us. If you see a 2 ft long stick in front of you, you don't need the quran to tell you that the stick is 2ft long. You can see it and feel it.
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Peace danish and all. I think danishes' post highlights a very important lesson to be learned. Laws,principles and rules cannot always be applied literally across the board in every situation...In the example given the women is in the most need,and so should receive the most help...Now to say that you should give the brother more because the quran says so,is bizzare,and probably against the 'spirit' of the book. In real life if you gave more to the brother or mother this would seem unjust..even if one says that the brother should recieve the greater portion,but is 'obliged' to help the sister,you cannot guarantee that a)the brother will fulfill this duty.(the brother might dislike the sister,or be unjust.) and b) why not give it to the sister straight away to cut out the beaurocracy,and to make sure the sister gets her 'rights'.
This example is another blow to those who seek a 'literal' interpretation of the quran in every situation,regardless of time,context,or the need for situation based ethics,morality..And the fact that human benefit is the main purpose of any scripture/knowledge...
Peace all. -
Peace Danish. In response to your original question,i would say that ones experiences, moral conscience,and the consequences/results of ones actions would be factors in determining if ones' conduct is righteous or not....I think the 'criterion' for me personally, is the human happiness/benefit a particular course of action is intended for,and if that action/intention practically achieves that benefit....
Niesctcze stated; 'What is the use of knowledge which does not benefit humans?'
'Man is not made for scripture....Scripture is made for man'...
'A book is only as good as its reader'...
Peace all. -
When no one but God claims to be the Author then it is really simple, He must be the one who authored it because no one came forward and challenged Him that He is not the Author
Peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
that is an extremely bad excuse. And i'm pretty sure you know it.
Mate, I?m sure that you didn?t get the simple logic I talked about, that simple logic was told to me when I was so young by a very knowledgable Muslim who is dead now, and it was compelling that it stuck in my head since then and I use it against the enemy of Allah, let me explain that simple logic again
If a group of people are in an area and one found a 100 bucks, so the asked all the people in the place and ONLY ONE came forward and said the is his, no opne challenged him whatsoever, therefore and logically speaking IT HAS TO BE HIS
If another person claimed to own the money, then we have a serious problem in hand and may have to be settled at court
Now with the Quran, we only have ONE who claimed to be the Author, and this is based on the content of the Quran as well, not bloody some low human desires, therefore it will stay belonging to Allah until someone comes forward and challenge Him that He was not the Author of the Quran and in 1400 years no one came forward and claimed as such, what we see is other sick people coming forward and suggesting that someone else wrote the Quran, they are so dumb that they even some non arabs taught him the Quran, sometimes they say Mohammad authored while the Quran told us that Mohammad never knew how to write,
If Mohammad is that smart and wrote that great book, why he denies himself to be the Author?, I need some bloody logical answers in here
If someone else authored the Quran other than Allah, why that author kept himself anonymous and gave that glory to someone else?, another question that requires some logical answers
Anyone who doesn't believe the quran came directly from God believes that it was the work of a guy commonly known as Muhammad who live a 1000+ years ago.
Ok, so smart Mohammad was so dumb to deny himself to be the author of that masterpiece, what bloody logic is that?
That dead person cannot come up to us and claim to be the author. That does not mean that we assume the quran is from God.
Oh that smart Mohammad included in his masterpiece that he never jnew how to write before the Quran, so how he wrote it then?
Well some illogical people will say he recited it to them and other who know how to write wrote it down, come on, but Mohammad didn?t say in that book that he was the author, again what non sense is that?
After you specify what is the inheritance amount I may look at this question as a human, but you know I?m the type of human who does not trust my nature as a human so I will always take what the God says over what I say
You are forgetting that God created you too. If the Quran is from God, then you are too. And so is your conscience. God doesn't have to speak in words (let alone arabic).
I don?t get your point bro, do you mean the Arabic Quran is not the words of Allah?
God speaks to us directly through ourselves and the world around us. If you see a 2 ft long stick in front of you, you don't need the quran to tell you that the stick is 2ft long. You can see it and feel it.
Sorry again bro what was that?, well I?m not talking about how Allah inspires individual here according to their own life experience, I?m talking about the last message sent by Allah to all humanity before one hell of a judgment day, now Allah decided that the last message to be in Arabic as He decided that previous messages to be in other languages but Arabic
And Allah does not speak in the Quran, HIS WORDS ARE ONLY RECORDED THERE AND BAD LUCK TO HUMANS IT HAPPENED TO BE IN ARABIC
For the inheritance let me prove to you that Danish does not know what he is talking about, he is only running around for only one reason, not to believe in the Quran and follow it but to prove the Quran is the words of unknown man while the Quran never claimed that and surely denied it as well, and so far Danish and the like of him failed really bad for over 1400 years.
411 CLEARLY told us if the deceased or any of the deceased?s children or the deceased?s parents is in DEBTS, then this debts must be cleared before any division of inheritance takes place. Let?s look at this important hint in verse 411
Allah enjoins you concerning your children The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
(11)
- See, 411 clearly is telling us ? ?, ?after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children?, based on that, any parent or any child that have debts, IT MUST BE PAID IN FULL BEFORE ANY DIVISION TAKES PLACE
peace all,
i think the answer to Danish's question is pretty obvious. Logically, we would give more money to the daughter because she is in the worst condition. That's what i would do, unless someone can explain to me the quran's reasoning on this.Wow, that was exactly as the Quran said
Slam dunk
Peace all
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therefore it will stay belonging to Allah until someone comes forward and challenge Him that He was not the Author of the Quran and in 1400 years no one came forward and claimed as such, what we see is other sick people coming forward and suggesting that someone else wrote the Quran, they are so dumb that they even some non arabs taught him the Quran, sometimes they say Mohammad authored while the Quran told us that Mohammad never knew how to write,
Peace Ahmed,
The above is the flaw I find in your argument. If someone found the 100 bucks, and someone else comes and challenges him, then what you are doing is saying that the challenger is dumb and his opinion is worthless.
There have been many people who have challenged the Quran. Maybe no one has been able to prove anything, but they all have challenged it. I don't think it's about the challenge, i think it's about proving what you have against the quran.
I wasn't arguing that the Quran isn't from God. I do think it is, but not in the way you do. I don't think God gave the Quran word for word to Muhammad. The message of course is from God (everything is), but the words are Muhammad. That is another reason why I don't trust the Hadith. Because when Muhammad and/or his followers compiled the message into one book, they included in it whatever they thought people would need.Wow, that was exactly as the Quran said
Slam dunk
see. You don't NEED the quran to know what is right or wrong.
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
The above is the flaw I find in your argument.
I donlt underswtand what you mean man, but did you consider that the onus on those who claim that it is not the words of Allah ?as the Quran says? to prove such allegation and tell us who was the mystery person(s) who authored the Quran?
If someone found the 100 bucks, and someone else comes and challenges him, then what you are doing is saying that the challenger is dumb and his opinion is worthless.
Not really, what I said if someone else came and said he owns the money then we have a problem in hand and the matter must be settled at court
In the case of the Quran, the Quran says about itself that it is the exact words of Allah, now for others to suggest something else they have to tell us who is that person and why he stayed anonymous?, now I can tell you whoi is the Author of the Quran if you don?t know Him, just read the Quran thoroughly and He will introduce Himself in great details to you
There have been many people who have challenged the Quran.
Excuse me bro, we need the author or the Quran if they say Allah is not the Author, other than that, their ranting is a waste of time
Maybe no one has been able to prove anything,
Of course no one proved that he is the author of the Quran, did you see/hear anyone came forward and said that he was the author of the Quran in the last 1400 years other than Allah?
but they all have challenged it.
not sure how you understand this challenge, that is different challenge to the make sura like it, the challenge in here is brought to the Kuffar on themselves by themselves, they came ranting and said a human is the author of the Quran, then they say Mohammad is that human and sometimes they say someone else, while neither Mohammad no someone lese ever claimed to be the author
what load of non sense those ranters come with for the last 1400 years
I don't think it's about the challenge, i think it's about proving what you have against the quran.
Well you may say this to those ranters then, because they brought that challenge on themselves by themselves, they are the ones who are promoting that a mystery human authored the Quran
I wasn't arguing that the Quran isn't from God. I do think it is,
but not in the way you do.and what is the way that I do?
I don't think God gave the Quran word for word to Muhammad.
It was not, it was word for word from Gebril to Mohammad, didn?t you know that?
The message of course is from God (everything is),
You need to elaborate for that one
but the words are Muhammad.
haha, here we go, Mister phonix, please don?t do like the sunni and associate things to Mohammad HE NEVER ASSOCIATED TO HIMSELF, Mohammad never said the flawed statement by you above
I guess you are mixed up between the Quran and the hadith, what you said above applies to the hadith mister believer, not to the Quran
That is another reason why I don't trust the Hadith.
LOLOLOLOL
You just answered yourself, now the Quran is not the hadith of the prophet mister believer
Because when Muhammad and/or his followers compiled the message into one book, they included in it whatever they thought people would need.
And you evidences are?
Wow, that was exactly as the Quran said
Slam dunk
see. You don't NEED the quran to know what is right or wrong.
oh yeh, how about the pork meat, did thee humans back then knew that it is bad?
cheers
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peace Ahmed,
it's great that you find my post amusing (really) ). But the thing is, i'm serious (where's the serious smiley?)
You did get me right. I do think that the Quran is the hadith. They are the same thing. Now i just "think" that. I don't know that. I know and I admit that I don't know (it's one of the "known unknowns". But i want to know. I want to have the best understanding. That is why I am having this debate with you.I said that everything is from God. This universe is from God. It contains God's message. Our goal is to understand and live by that message. Muhammad reached a state of being where he understood this message completely (enlightenment), so he started preaching his message to his people (in arabic). These teachings of Muhammad were later written down (either by him or his followers) and compiled into one book which we call the Quran.
This is just a "theory." What is it based on? well, the first thing is the fact that so far i havn't been able to find anything in the quran that people cannot discover for themselves. It is a great book, but in terms of what it teaches mankind, it is not anything "divine." The purpose of the Quran, it seems then, is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide. If we read the Quran, we already know what is bad for us and what is good for us without having to experience the good and bad to differentiate. Gambling is bad. If no one taught us that gambling is bad, then we would find out that gambling is bad only by gambling first. The Quran, or any other source of guidance, saves us from that gambling part
There is a bit more to it, but i'll save it for later.
Please tell me how you think Muhammad got hold of the Quran. Also, please provide me with evidence contradictory to my thinking. thanks. )oh yeh, how about the pork meat, did thee humans back then knew that it is bad?
cheers
why not? I myself am proof of what i claim. You saw it, now the next step is to accept it. I didn't know that what i said was also in the quran. I learned that myself. I don't know from where, but not the quran. that is proof.
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Peace AB,
what load of non sense those ranters come with for the last 1400 years
Interesting point. The same arguments that have been there from when quran was written down, are still being used today.
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
255 And they said ?Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening.?
215 They said ?No, these are just bad dreams; no, he made it up; no, he is a poet. So let him bring us a sign like those who were sent before.?
- And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
5921 Had We sent down this Quran to a mountain, you would have seen it trembling, crumbling, out of reverence for God. And such are the examples We cite for the people, that they may reflect.
Peace