Challenge to all rejectors of the Divinity of Al-Quraan : Moderated Debates
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Peace Enquirer
You did never call me any names that is the truth but I avioded you because of past bad experiences.
I can play on all fields (Qur'an - understanding with the help of translations and logic; slow courts) clay court, politics (grass and fast courts). ;D
bro, enq always double fault
Enquirer Ahmed Baghat the chair umpire called your serve as the double fault that means it will be really easy to play on all surfaces with you.
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Peace ab. Just one question ab...
sure, anytime (Quran based or not)
Its quite tough...
what is quite tough?
Are you the most knowledgable member on quran in this forum?.
did i ever said that? NO, so please don't resort to your twisting and misleading experience by suggesting baseless and unfounded propaganda
but what I can say is this, certainly I don't lack the knowledge of the Arabic Quran, and sure Allah blessed me with the the language, therefore i don't need to go through masses of misleading dictioneries and spend days looking at roots to understand my Arabic Quran, and that will give me a huge adavantage over the non arabic speakers when it comes to the Quran (Alhamdullelah) therefore I'm one of those that the Quran enemies should be proud to debate but it seems that they are so shakey that one like me must be dodged, fine bro this makes me feel good still
...Remember,dont run away from this question...
what question bro?, so far since you joined I have never seen a merited question that you ask, it is bizzare from a muslim brother to nominate a quran rejector and a professional twister to be a moderator on a debate that criticise the Quran, see if you are a straightforward kafir, i would have no problem that you moderate that debate but i know enough about you now enq and all the sincere muslims should know you very well, therefore that muslim brother is either too naive or too young
now I ask you not to shirk away from debating me
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Peace wakas. Two seperate points we can debate,either;
- How literalism creates contradictions in the quranic text... Or,
- Are the quranic laws relevant for all times,or only the 'spirit/'implied morality' of these laws?
My opinion is that literalism creates contradictions,so one has to resort to 'justifications' to correct these contradictions....
My opinion is that the quranic laws are not relevent for all times,and only some of the underlying morality is needed for todays society....
Im open to any topics you,or anyone else wants to dicuss...
I am not,repeat am not,an enemy of quran...But i dislike the quran being used for justifying human oppression....My aim is not to win this dicussion,or prove my ego...But to increase understanding of these topics,so we can benefit the forum,and benefit humanity....Which im sure we can unite on...
Peace all.
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We have had enough battle of egos in the forum lately.
I think a Moderated debate on Quran's authenticity by wakas and enquirer will be good, constructive and also peaceful.
Peace!
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Peace pm.Thank you for your vote of confidence in me and wakas...
I agree,too much ego,emotion and flaming on the forum sometimes... o -
enq shirked away again
Please enq, don't aske me any more question if you will not address my replys and just shirk away
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stop whining guys, all foirums like this and in fact this is far more quiter forum, it seems becauise you can't handle me and mquran you guys trying to defame us indorectly
your sick plan won't work becaiuse me and Mquran are united to defend our Quran unlike many double faced and hyupocrite muslims
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Peace ab. I have reported the language and hostility of you and mquran to the moderators...You really need to learn how to talk respectfully to people,you two...
I wish you luck in reforming your language and attitudes...I wish reform and peace to all humanity... -
Yeh that iks what you can do, if the moederators feels I have brokmen any rule and want to ban me, fine I will take like a man, then I will serve my time and come back to you to save other innocent humans from being mislead by you and the likes of you
now leave it to the moderators and donl;t direct any comment to me, but any non sensible comment that you say about the Quran outside the moderated debates will always give me the right to respond to it and I will always reserve that right
now you should stop crying and get into it and show us how you can twist the Quran words and say see it is human
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Peace be upon you all,
I just poked my head in here to see what was going on, I only looked at the last two pages. I would have thought a debate was going on by now. Anyway, I am honored to be asked to moderate, but I dont know how often I will be required to be online to do so and I cant be certain how often I will be online. But I will help in any way I can.
I just hope that some of us would grow up and stop playing Holy Warrior and learn to have civilized conversation. I do agree that Wakas and Enquirer would be a nice debate that we could all learn from in terms of intelligence and character by both of them. But I dont want to put any pressure on anyone to debate. I am fine without it also.
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peace all,
I reject that Idolfree or and phonix be moderators for these debate, soimply because one don't believe in the Quran and the other doubts its integrity
Ahmed, I disagree with you that the integrity of the Quran lies in the belief that it is divine.
Peace wakas. Two seperate points we can debate,either;
- How literalism creates contradictions in the quranic text... Or,
- Are the quranic laws relevant for all times,or only the 'spirit/'implied morality' of these laws?
I was thinking about something similar the other day. About what I call "superficial tradition/laws". offtopic
When we look at traditions, we shouldn't look at what people before us did, but why they did it. It is always the why that is more important than the what.
For example, Chrysler built Hemi engines back in the 60s, not because it was a great popular engine in the past, but because it was one of the best designs (this info might be inaccurate). The hemi (hemispherical cylinder heads) was the latest technology. Today, Chrysler has turned making Hemis their tradition. They made Hemis in the past, they are making them again, and will continue making them. But they are only looking at WHAt Chrysler made in the past, instead of WHY. Why did they make hemis? because they were one of the best engines.
So to me, tradition wouldn't be making Hemi engines, but building engines which have the latest technology in them. That would be following the true spirit of Chrysler engineers of the past.
Hope you undersood the above (I can give more examples!)I think view on tradition can also be applied to Quranic laws. It can go two ways
- the specific laws are not important, but the "why" of those laws, the spirit of those laws is. So although we can change the laws, we cannot change what those laws stand for. So changing the punishment of adultery is OK as long as it accomplishes the same thing.
- we must follow every law exactly, but we must apply the reason behind those laws into other things as well. Like if eating pig meat is bad, then whatever resembles pig meat must also be bad.
either way, our following of those laws cannot be superficial.
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peace all,
Ahmed, I disagree with you that the integrity of the Quran lies in the belief that it is divine.
Ok mate
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peace all,
Ahmed, I disagree with you that the integrity of the Quran lies in the belief that it is divine.
Ok mate
Really did not understand. You went very strong on Anwar and letting this go away so easily. Yes integrity of Qur'an depends on each and every word because its divine. Words of Allah Subhana wa Taala.
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peace all,
Ahmed, I disagree with you that the integrity of the Quran lies in the belief that it is divine.
Ok mate
Really did not understand. You went very strong on Anwar and letting this go away so easily. Yes integrity of Qur'an depends on each and every word because its divine. Words of Allah Subhana wa Taala.
I just had enough bro
Peace
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Guys, I couldn't help laughing when I saw this. I usually don't find such things funny but omnious but today, the sheer predictability of it made me burst out laughing. Check out Enquirer's post below
- How literalism creates contradictions in the quranic text... Or,
- Are the quranic laws relevant for all times,or only the 'spirit/'implied morality' of these laws?
My opinion is that literalism creates contradictions,so one has to resort to 'justifications' to correct these contradictions....
My opinion is that the quranic laws are not relevent for all times,and only some of the underlying morality is needed for todays society....
Im open to any topics you,or anyone else wants to dicuss...
If anyone debates him, ask him the following
Point 1- Please define literalism.
- Under whose authority is 'literalism' defined.
- Why should al-quraan conform to that authority.
Point 2
- How does one extricate the 'moral' of a particular punishment?
- If al-quraan says to CRUCIFY mischief-maker, does this mean we put a fake cross on him and make him walk around?
- Under whose authority is 'literalism' transposed over 'metaphoricism'?
I promise you, Mr Enquirer will not answer these questions. Why ? Because like his predecessing critics, he will then expose his true intention.
I am not,repeat am not,an enemy of quran...But i dislike the quran being used for justifying human oppression....My aim is not to win this dicussion,or prove my ego...But to increase understanding of these topics,so we can benefit the forum,and benefit humanity....Which im sure we can unite on...
Peace all.lol, sure
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Peace all,
the underneath doesn't make me laugh at all, and mquran, you're reaction is just as predictable...as mine and enquirers
Quote from enq
- How literalism creates contradictions in the quranic text... Or,
- Are the quranic laws relevant for all times,or only the 'spirit/'implied morality' of these laws?
My opinion is that literalism creates contradictions,so one has to resort to 'justifications' to correct these contradictions....
My opinion is that the quranic laws are not relevent for all times,and only some of the underlying morality is needed for todays society....
Im open to any topics you,or anyone else wants to dicuss...
(which doesn't mean that i share enq's views 100 % as i believe that more than some of the underlying morality is needed ))
PM
We have had enough battle of egos in the forum lately.I think a Moderated debate on Quran's authenticity by wakas and enquirer will be good, constructive and also peaceful.
Peace!
i would also like to add that a debate on these aspects does not, imo, imply that it is on the authenticity or divinity (or divine origin whatever u call it) of quran
even sunny sunnis use ijtihad...do we quran aloners have to go back to the stone age brickwall
elke
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Elke the underneath doesn't make me laugh at all, and mquran, you're reaction is just as predictable...as mine and enquirers
Sure, discussions always follow a mathematical pattern of logic.
My opinion is that literalism creates contradictions,so one has to resort to 'justifications' to correct these contradictions....
I see. Would you care to give examples?
My opinion is that the quranic laws are not relevent for all times,and only some of the underlying morality is needed for todays society....
What criteria do you employ to make this judgement?
Let me rephrase You say Law X is no longer relevant. What has changed to render Law X not relevant.
i would also like to add that a debate on these aspects does not, imo, imply that it is on the authenticity or divinity (or divine origin whatever u call it) of quran
IYO , perhaps not but according to al-quraan, it's laws are for humanity without qualification (i.e all place and time). So ipso facto by saying some of its laws arent relevant, quranically you are calling into question its authenticity. Once again, this is a THEORETICAL discussion and nothing personal is implied.
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Dear mquran
first of all I was quoting U quoting enquirer... at least for the second and third quote
and you know that i do not want to discuss this matter with you because i do not think it possible to come to reasonable terms
you will not convince me, i'll not convince you
if i tell you that i cannot accept the idea of applying some of the quranic law as prescribed in quran - speaking specifically of lashing "adulterers" as we already talked - you'll tell me that i'm not "islamic", you already did and i'm not ready to take this from you, nor anbybody else
why first of all what exactly is zina adultery, fornication, pornographie ??? There must have been a definition at the time of the revelation and the society was i think ready to apply that kind of punishment - which might even have been salutary then...
but i have a lot of trust in god, so much trust in god that i believe in an ongoing revelation, as i live it myself for about 20 years. and i do not believe that what was read and understood 1400 years ago, must be read and understood today
three month period after divorce for women... for me this is not valid anymore as today one can have a pregnancy test... and if it's not for pregnancy but for STD, why would the waiting be only for the women ?
I actually evolved on that coz when i left my husband i waited for over nine month before assuming relation with my beloved one, the one i left my husband for.... not "officially" divorced yet - i wanted to do it in a clean manner, waiting period included aso, but realized on the way that the cards were biaised - actually, my official divorce, which could have taken place in three month if my ex had asked for it, happened 3 years later...so was i an adulteress in your eyes during all this time ? While by the way my ex was remarried three month after i left... thanks to the possibility of polygamy...and for sure he was no adulterer as he was legally marriedok, you'll tell me that this is not quaranic spirit and i share that idea, but unfortunately this is what happens in real life
all this does not change a thing in my eyes about the morality underlying these laws. But what are laws for ? Blind application or education ? Education as to make understand that something is immoral ? The prophets people at the time did not have these notions i guess, and yes nowadays some don't either, but nearly everyone has thougth about it, made up his/her opinion, chosen his path. Did god give these laws in this time to be applied forvever. Did he clearly state this ? you say it's laws are for humanity without qualification of place and time. i say the morals are for all ... may be this is a malformation of a lawyer - as in law you have either the litteral (yours) or the systemic, the historical, the teleological ...interpretation of laws. really don't have the time now to explain all these to you, may be you can look this up, if you're not familiar with the terms.
Now if you want to base yourself on quran alone, life is not quran alone to me, god gave us many other thing, hearing, eyesight, brains, universe
May be i've become to personal in my explanations, but this did it for me. It's during these last years that i started questionning my practizes, reading the quran critically - meaning not only saying, you have to accept , it's from god, but wondering what the rules were for. and that's were it got me
god will judge me on this.peace lk