Is Islam compatible with secularism ?
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Peace jm. I think that 'secularism' is the correct way to implement islam (peace.)...
With no secularism/common and unified values,the priests,clergy and religious 'scholars' can oppress the masses...Thats not to say that all versions of secularism are fantastic...But they seeem to be better than anything that 'religion' has come up with in the 'modern age'...(eg taliban,iran,saudi etc..)
Peace all. ps;many muslims in the world love living in secular democracies... -
Peace jm. I think that 'secularism' is the correct way to implement islam (peace.)...
Islam isn't defined as 'peace' but 'attainment of salaam'. Salaam has a multiplicity of attributes throughout al-quraan. Secularism, a way of life which takes out the god and thus the teleological element from life has invariably led to unrestrained hedonism.
With no secularism/common and unified values,the priests,clergy and religious 'scholars' can oppress the masses...
25 years and you still take things at face value? Do you think 'priests' are just guys in frocks going 'bless this and that'?! Secular governments with their media experts perform the very same function of control and harness, yet you'll let them off? Rather superficial, your analysis.
Thats not to say that all versions of secularism are fantastic...But they seeem to be better than anything that 'religion' has come up with in the 'modern age'...(eg taliban,iran,saudi etc..)
In so far as they give wider access to information, yes.
Peace all. ps;many muslims in the world love living in secular democracies...
How do you define a 'muslim'. Since you know of Parwez, Shabbir etc, perhaps you could give an exposition
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The Western civilization has, after three centuries of struggle, rid itself of systems based on religious dogmas. The current setup of a western nation includes
- Democracy
- Capitalism
- Pursuit of scientific know how
These three, by and large, define secularism, and every progressive nation on this Earth has adopted some form of secularism. Modern, secular nation states have paired-up democracy and capitalism, in a balancing act, where dependence on each other ties voters to politicians, consumers to businesses, and businesses to politicians. Here individuals as voters and consumers exercise their conscience and purchasing preferences to influence both politicians and the businesses. This give and take, a continual tug of war keeps the modern secular state humming.
There are many flaws in the democratic setup. Focusing on the concept of simple majority will illustrate my point. A 50% majority can divide a nation and weaken the political system. The persistent dissatisfaction with the politicians is a direct result of the 50% majority mentality. Every politician plays a numbers game, appealing to a segment of the electorate to achieve the 50% magic number ? the American blue-state, red-state division in 2004 was such an exercise.
Similarly, the capitalistic principles are focused on one objective accumulation of wealth. Free market economics assumes a ?dog eat dog?, ?survival of the fittest? world. Governments are expected to show increased tax revenues year after year, corporations are expected to post profits quarter after quarter, and individuals are expected to amass wealth for living, retirement, children?s education and other pursuits. The whole phenomenon of globalization has less to do with the well being of humanity and everything to do with the profits of multi-national corporations.
I believe that the accumulation of wealth and the tools employed for such a purpose is Riba. The Qur-an has three basic meanings of Riba from the verses below
- An oppressive interest on money borrowed by needy people
- Usury is antithesis, nemesis of Devine Laws and as such it prevents creation of a Zakat based economic order
- Usury is a tool employed by priesthood to further repress humanity
Unfortunately, capitalism is the order of the day and with the demise of socialism and communism, there is no rival to this economic order. One can argue that capitalism has gained in stature over democracy, when a communist country like China adopts capitalism and not democracy. While capitalism violates Qur-anic dictates, it is impractical to go against its grain as individuals. One must leverage the economics of the day to further the message of the Qur-an. The exalted prophet participated fully in the economics of his time and influenced it by sticking to the permanent values he innately felt were necessary. We too should fully participate in capitalism and introduce the permanent values in the Qur-an as the opportunities present themselves. Shying away will delay the reforms so badly needed.
While it is true that secularism is not exactly what the Qur-an ordered, it is equally important to understand that it is a step in the right direction. Without secularism this world would be a miserable place to live. Religious priesthood will dominate every society and government. When the promise of Islam diminished shortly after the conquest of the Persian Empire, the hope of humanity was sucked out, and the world plunged into an abyss of death, destruction, and oppression till the European renaissance and the age of enlightenment, resulting in secular thoughts. I am giving a gross overview of the journey to secularism, emphasis is on the failure of Muslims to uphold the Qur-an and the eventual evolution of the human thought to secularism.
Secularism has helped Muslims to approach the Qur-an openly, defying the priests, and attaining renewed conviction in the Message. For this alone, I tip my hat to secularism. Muslims must take it from here and continue on the journey that will lead to a paradise on Earth.
http//www.galaxydastak.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=314123119137642
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Peace jm. A lot of very perceptive points in your analysis....Secularism has gone a long way to reduce the oppression of the priests and mullahs....There are flaws in certain aspects of secularism,but at least the system CAN be reformed and TRIES to cater for universal human rights and is PRACTICAL,pragmatic and economically viable,rather then dogmatic and impractical...
I think people need to concentrate on reforming islam to be in cohesion with secularism.....I believe SOME aspects of quranic wisdom do actually agree with secularism,and vice versa...
Peace all. -
Enquirer I think people need to concentrate on reforming islam to be in cohesion with secularism.....
How? Should we build more guillotines? Create more media giants to delude people into thinking we're harbringers of peace? Carpet-bomb innocent civilians? The mullas of secularism has deluded you into thinking 'no god=no problem' because your analysis is superficial. 'no god' actually means 'we're gods and the third world are our slaves'.
I believe SOME aspects of quranic wisdom do actually agree with secularism,and vice versa...
Do you I thought it was just reading into the text? Are there two Enquirers or something? One who agrees and one who doesn't?
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Enquirer, people have been hanging on fixed meanings for more then a 1000 years. Now we are trying our best to discover how many meanings are possible with the ancient arabic and cross-refernence. So it is no 'reform' it is a 'rediscover'......
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ArnoldEnquirer, people have been hanging on fixed meanings for more then a 1000 years. Now we are trying our best to discover how many meanings are possible with the ancient arabic and cross-refernence. So it is no 'reform' it is a 'rediscover'......
Indeed. The problem is, Enquirer's 'research' (if you can call it that) didn't extend to that even though he 'researched' in Arabic. He failed to actually look at how a cloak of 'religiousity' was cast upon al-quraan in order to shackle its conceptual power. The fact that al-quraan still retains its original meanings is astounding in itself but Enquirer wouldn't care about that..'open-minded' ? Lol.
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Peace all. The cloak of religiousity is still upon the quran,from guys like you.......
And horror of horrors,maybe it is a religious book......?
Maybe one day you will open your minds and think about that posssibility.....?
But for now,just try to be as 'humanistic' as you can with your reforms, (rediscoveries....?) that come from yourselves.....,or are they from god,or the quran,or from the truth,or from wishful thinking and illusions.......?
Peace all. -
Ever thought of coming from ancient arabic?
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Peace,
Once again enquirer forgets he is on a muslim site. If you're such a humanist you claim to be enquirer you should be applauding the 'reforms' we are trying to make in the world. But because these rediscoveries of ancient arabic meanings takes away your 'proofs' you need for proofing the Quran is not divine, now you are slandering these discoveries.
What is more important to you enquirer? Reform in the muslim world? You have to remember that this book is held sacred for large groups of people's. We are trying to show them that a lot of possibilites have been lost over time, that can make the umma grow back again to the tolerant, open-minded, scientific community it ones were. So you have to question yourself again enquirer, what is more important to you? To applaud the humanistic approach to the ancient arabic words used in the Quran, or to defend the un-humanistic approach of the middle-ages so it can be used to 'proof' the Quran is un-humanstic?
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. Define muslim...? Are sunnis sites not also muslim sites......
Dont tag on humanism to justify your re-interpretations......I applaud some members for the 'bridging',pragmatic,necessary stepping stone of 'islamic reform'...,but in time you will realise its not just reform my friend,but a complete re-examination of the quran,islam,god and all these concepts....
The method of ancient arabic liguistics (which also opens up a potential new priesthood.) has some humanistic benefit,but some very in-humanistic benefits......
Also secularism,humanism,pragmatism have shown VASTLY better ways of practical living for billions of people....Why do we have to wait for you guys to come up with new interpretations.....you have taken 1400 years,and you still disagree on salat,hajj,islam,hadith,sawm,riba,etc,etc.....
The reform is to overturn illusional systems and concepts,not to re-interprete apologetically,impractically and dogmatically....
Peace all. ps; The two alternatives you mentioned are not the only alternatives...that is half the problem......the black and white mentality.......The world doesnt necessarily need the quran to go forward,be guided,be moral or be happy/successful.....the quicker you guys realise that,the better...Dont turn a potential tool into an idol....
Ever thought of pragmatic humanism as a criterion and way to help humanity......? -
Peace jm. A lot of very perceptive points in your analysis....Secularism has gone a long way to reduce the oppression of the priests and mullahs....There are flaws in certain aspects of secularism,but at least the system CAN be reformed and TRIES to cater for universal human rights and is PRACTICAL,pragmatic and economically viable,rather then dogmatic and impractical...
I think people need to concentrate on reforming islam to be in cohesion with secularism.....I believe SOME aspects of quranic wisdom do actually agree with secularism,and vice versa...
Peace all.peace enq, all
I agree with the above. The problem with religion, especially trad. Islam, is that people believe the truth has been revealed to them and they don't need to improve/modify their ways to live a better life.
We need to keep learning and growing. I think that's what 37 is about. -
Peace phoenix. Agree with almost all your post.
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Peace arnoldyasin. Define muslim...? Are sunnis sites not also muslim sites......
Dont tag on humanism to justify your re-interpretations......I applaud some members for the 'bridging',pragmatic,necessary stepping stone of 'islamic reform'...,but in time you will realise its not just reform my friend,but a complete re-examination of the quran,islam,god and all these concepts....These are YOUR concepts. This concpet of God comes from your knowledge and experience, and certainly not mine. Your concept of re-examination comes from your knowledge and experience. You believe it is not correct, we don't.
And we have our reasons for that. You keep on forgetting we believe the Quran is divine, if you don't respect that, then you're on the wrong forum.The method of ancient arabic liguistics (which also opens up a potential new priesthood.) has some humanistic benefit,but some very in-humanistic benefits......
Also secularism,humanism,pragmatism have shown VASTLY better ways of practical living for billions of people....Why do we have to wait for you guys to come up with new interpretations.....you have taken 1400 years,and you still disagree on salat,hajj,islam,hadith,sawm,riba,etc,etc.....How do you know? You haven't seen a real islamic state at work. Plus the first islamic state ruled by the first followers are globally excepted as the largest tolerant state in history. 1400 years? No, we are only discussing this for about 50 years, and these differences are normal as people has to shake of a lot of fixed thinking.
The reform is to overturn illusional systems and concepts,not to re-interprete apologetically,impractically and dogmatically....
Peace all. ps; The two alternatives you mentioned are not the only alternatives...that is half the problem......the black and white mentality.......The world doesnt necessarily need the quran to go forward,be guided,be moral or be happy/successful.....the quicker you guys realise that,the better...Dont turn a potential tool into an idol....
Ever thought of pragmatic humanism as a criterion and way to help humanity......?But you forget we believe in the Quran, you forget we have reasons for it based on our knowledge and experience. You forget we believe the Quran gives the same and even more. If you judge us on that, then go ahead, is your right. And there is no state on earth that uses pragmatic humanism, so you have no proof that works either. So you believe it is better because of your conviction it is better, is not based on evidence only on theory.
And phoenix, we also don't believe in traditional Islam, we try our best to show this is not the real message of the Quran. That there are other angles in the Quran. I live 37, but still it is not respected and i'm judged as being 'tradtional' or 'dogmatic'. This is ignorant.
Peace
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Also secularism,humanism,pragmatism have shown VASTLY better ways of practical living for billions of people....Why do we have to wait for you guys to come up with new interpretations.....you have taken 1400 years,and you still disagree on salat,hajj,islam,hadith,sawm,riba,etc,etc.....
peace enq,
you do have a point there, why are we closely examining the quran when it's message is already present in the world?
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I do respect people's belief in the quran. But some people here don't realize that others have their reasons to believe what they believe. -
And phoenix, we also don't believe in traditional Islam, we try our best to show this is not the real message of the Quran. That there are other angles in the Quran. I live 37, but still it is not respected and i'm judged as being 'tradtional' or 'dogmatic'. This is ignorant.
peace arnold,
I know you don't believe in trad. Islam. What I said doesn't apply to you.
I do agree. -
Peace phoenix. And THAT is the 64 million dollar question.....WHY........?
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Peace,
Phoenix and enquirer, i never judged you two on not believing in the Quran, but enquirer is judging me on it, so to you enq...WHY
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Peace arnoldyasin. Im not judging you.....you could be a much better person than me...I dont know you personally. I am just pointing out flaws in your logic,aplication,and understanding on certain issues......
Peace. Dont take it personal.... -
Things you see as flaws. Subjective judgement.....but let's quit this argument, is going nowhere as you only say things without proofs or examples. Also not meant personal
Peace