Is Islam compatible with secularism ?
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Ever thought of coming from ancient arabic?
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Peace,
Once again enquirer forgets he is on a muslim site. If you're such a humanist you claim to be enquirer you should be applauding the 'reforms' we are trying to make in the world. But because these rediscoveries of ancient arabic meanings takes away your 'proofs' you need for proofing the Quran is not divine, now you are slandering these discoveries.
What is more important to you enquirer? Reform in the muslim world? You have to remember that this book is held sacred for large groups of people's. We are trying to show them that a lot of possibilites have been lost over time, that can make the umma grow back again to the tolerant, open-minded, scientific community it ones were. So you have to question yourself again enquirer, what is more important to you? To applaud the humanistic approach to the ancient arabic words used in the Quran, or to defend the un-humanistic approach of the middle-ages so it can be used to 'proof' the Quran is un-humanstic?
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. Define muslim...? Are sunnis sites not also muslim sites......
Dont tag on humanism to justify your re-interpretations......I applaud some members for the 'bridging',pragmatic,necessary stepping stone of 'islamic reform'...,but in time you will realise its not just reform my friend,but a complete re-examination of the quran,islam,god and all these concepts....
The method of ancient arabic liguistics (which also opens up a potential new priesthood.) has some humanistic benefit,but some very in-humanistic benefits......
Also secularism,humanism,pragmatism have shown VASTLY better ways of practical living for billions of people....Why do we have to wait for you guys to come up with new interpretations.....you have taken 1400 years,and you still disagree on salat,hajj,islam,hadith,sawm,riba,etc,etc.....
The reform is to overturn illusional systems and concepts,not to re-interprete apologetically,impractically and dogmatically....
Peace all. ps; The two alternatives you mentioned are not the only alternatives...that is half the problem......the black and white mentality.......The world doesnt necessarily need the quran to go forward,be guided,be moral or be happy/successful.....the quicker you guys realise that,the better...Dont turn a potential tool into an idol....
Ever thought of pragmatic humanism as a criterion and way to help humanity......? -
Peace jm. A lot of very perceptive points in your analysis....Secularism has gone a long way to reduce the oppression of the priests and mullahs....There are flaws in certain aspects of secularism,but at least the system CAN be reformed and TRIES to cater for universal human rights and is PRACTICAL,pragmatic and economically viable,rather then dogmatic and impractical...
I think people need to concentrate on reforming islam to be in cohesion with secularism.....I believe SOME aspects of quranic wisdom do actually agree with secularism,and vice versa...
Peace all.peace enq, all
I agree with the above. The problem with religion, especially trad. Islam, is that people believe the truth has been revealed to them and they don't need to improve/modify their ways to live a better life.
We need to keep learning and growing. I think that's what 37 is about. -
Peace phoenix. Agree with almost all your post.
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Peace arnoldyasin. Define muslim...? Are sunnis sites not also muslim sites......
Dont tag on humanism to justify your re-interpretations......I applaud some members for the 'bridging',pragmatic,necessary stepping stone of 'islamic reform'...,but in time you will realise its not just reform my friend,but a complete re-examination of the quran,islam,god and all these concepts....These are YOUR concepts. This concpet of God comes from your knowledge and experience, and certainly not mine. Your concept of re-examination comes from your knowledge and experience. You believe it is not correct, we don't.
And we have our reasons for that. You keep on forgetting we believe the Quran is divine, if you don't respect that, then you're on the wrong forum.The method of ancient arabic liguistics (which also opens up a potential new priesthood.) has some humanistic benefit,but some very in-humanistic benefits......
Also secularism,humanism,pragmatism have shown VASTLY better ways of practical living for billions of people....Why do we have to wait for you guys to come up with new interpretations.....you have taken 1400 years,and you still disagree on salat,hajj,islam,hadith,sawm,riba,etc,etc.....How do you know? You haven't seen a real islamic state at work. Plus the first islamic state ruled by the first followers are globally excepted as the largest tolerant state in history. 1400 years? No, we are only discussing this for about 50 years, and these differences are normal as people has to shake of a lot of fixed thinking.
The reform is to overturn illusional systems and concepts,not to re-interprete apologetically,impractically and dogmatically....
Peace all. ps; The two alternatives you mentioned are not the only alternatives...that is half the problem......the black and white mentality.......The world doesnt necessarily need the quran to go forward,be guided,be moral or be happy/successful.....the quicker you guys realise that,the better...Dont turn a potential tool into an idol....
Ever thought of pragmatic humanism as a criterion and way to help humanity......?But you forget we believe in the Quran, you forget we have reasons for it based on our knowledge and experience. You forget we believe the Quran gives the same and even more. If you judge us on that, then go ahead, is your right. And there is no state on earth that uses pragmatic humanism, so you have no proof that works either. So you believe it is better because of your conviction it is better, is not based on evidence only on theory.
And phoenix, we also don't believe in traditional Islam, we try our best to show this is not the real message of the Quran. That there are other angles in the Quran. I live 37, but still it is not respected and i'm judged as being 'tradtional' or 'dogmatic'. This is ignorant.
Peace
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Also secularism,humanism,pragmatism have shown VASTLY better ways of practical living for billions of people....Why do we have to wait for you guys to come up with new interpretations.....you have taken 1400 years,and you still disagree on salat,hajj,islam,hadith,sawm,riba,etc,etc.....
peace enq,
you do have a point there, why are we closely examining the quran when it's message is already present in the world?
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I do respect people's belief in the quran. But some people here don't realize that others have their reasons to believe what they believe. -
And phoenix, we also don't believe in traditional Islam, we try our best to show this is not the real message of the Quran. That there are other angles in the Quran. I live 37, but still it is not respected and i'm judged as being 'tradtional' or 'dogmatic'. This is ignorant.
peace arnold,
I know you don't believe in trad. Islam. What I said doesn't apply to you.
I do agree. -
Peace phoenix. And THAT is the 64 million dollar question.....WHY........?
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Peace,
Phoenix and enquirer, i never judged you two on not believing in the Quran, but enquirer is judging me on it, so to you enq...WHY
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Peace arnoldyasin. Im not judging you.....you could be a much better person than me...I dont know you personally. I am just pointing out flaws in your logic,aplication,and understanding on certain issues......
Peace. Dont take it personal.... -
Things you see as flaws. Subjective judgement.....but let's quit this argument, is going nowhere as you only say things without proofs or examples. Also not meant personal
Peace
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In the past, and Godwilling also in the future...but i meant the past. One most common comment in books about the first Islamic era, is that it was so tolerant to other people's religions and views, which was never seen before, and some even say not even know...
Peace