Do people before the advent of Islam go to heaven?
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Peace mate
The quraan never told us to follow the previous scriptures, it only told us to believe that Allah sent them
we are only ordered to follow the Quran
Salam
peace Ahmed, thank you for the explanation. But one more question. If God told us to follow what He sent us, then aren't the previous scriptures part of what God sent us?
I think what it all comes down to is verification. we must verify and understand everything before we follow it. -
Peace mate
The quraan never told us to follow the previous scriptures, it only told us to believe that Allah sent them
we are only ordered to follow the Quran
Salam
peace Ahmed, thank you for the explanation. But one more question. If God told us to follow what He sent us, then aren't the previous scriptures part of what God sent us?
I think what it all comes down to is verification. we must verify and understand everything before we follow it.Allah (SWT) has replaced the previous scriptures with Qur'an. If you read Qur'an with a faith it is divine revelation than there are more changes you will be able to understand the message.
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Peace mate
The quraan never told us to follow the previous scriptures, it only told us to believe that Allah sent them
we are only ordered to follow the Quran
Salam
peace Ahmed, thank you for the explanation. But one more question. If God told us to follow what He sent us, then aren't the previous scriptures part of what God sent us?
I think what it all comes down to is verification. we must verify and understand everything before we follow it.Mate
I see it this way
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The first scriptures were full of wisdom and guidance
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Allah gave the human the role of guarding it but they failed
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Allah sent the last guidance that have the same guidance revealed previously in addition to that new laws, and even new laws that overwrote laws in these old scriptures, like the laws of punishing the homos or the laws regarding adultry, Allah was clear that the Quran is "Muhaimen" on all other scriptures, i.e. it is far superior to all the previous scriptures, it is enough that Allah said He is in charge in guarding to make far superior to others scriptures which were gurded by the flawed humans who can't be trusted
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The Quran also stressed that those previous scriptures have been corrupted by sick humans, hence there is no obligation on humans to follow it as it is going to be hatrd to know which part is corrupt and which is not, no wonder He sent another message "The Quran" and no wonder that He is guarding it Himself because it is the last one He sent to us as the Quran told us "Khatim Al Anbiaa", i.e. there will be no more prophets to tell us Anbaa "News"
Regarding verification, well it is so easy to prove that Allah was 100% right when He told us in the Quran that humans corrupted the previous messages, therefore it is verified
now what else you are seeking to verfy, please don't tell me that you have to verify the existance of Allah
can you please give me a few examples fropm the Quran on things that we must verify?
cheers
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peace KGB,
what leads you to the conclusion that the previous scriptures have been replaced?
46 And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
47 And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
48 And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
49 And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.
(46)
(47)
(4
(49)
Salam
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I see it this way
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The first scriptures were full of wisdom and guidance
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Allah gave the human the role of guarding it but they failed
peace
I understand the above, but what I don't understand is why it took God several tries to understand that the humans cannot be trusted? why couldn't be the first scripture perfect like the Quran?
now what else you are seeking to verfy, please don't tell me that you have to verify the existance of Allah
can you please give me a few examples fropm the Quran on things that we must verify?
I don't think belief in God has anything to do with the Quran.
I think we have to verify every law. I don't believe we should read the Quran with complete and blind faith in it's "perfectness." We need to follow what the Quran says and find out if it works or not. We need to put every law, every lesson side by side with natural law to make sure that what it says is true. That is the ONLY way to know. Otherwise, the Quran might not be what it claims to be. I hope you understand what I'm saying. -
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I understand the above, but what I don't understand is why it took God several tries to understand that the humans cannot be trusted? why couldn't be the first scripture perfect like the Quran?
It didn?t take Allah several tries neither the previous books were not perfect, it was part of His plan to expose the human corruption, I also see it that humans are the ones who are taking too many tries to understand what Allah is and what He is doing with us they even corrupted the messeeges Allah sent to them,
now what else you are seeking to verfy, please don't tell me that you have to verify the existance of Allah
can you please give me a few examples fropm the Quran on things that we must verify?
I don't think belief in God has anything to do with the Quran.
Well I?m talking about the God of the Quran not any other gods if there is any, now to believe in God you have to believe what he says, you can?t separate the two
I think we have to verify every law.
Give me examples of some laws and how it can be verified please
I don't believe we should read the Quran with complete and blind faith in it's "perfectness.
I think that you are missing an important point regarding the Quran, part of the Quran is not perfect and is called Mutashabih, 37 and the Quran told us that no human will even know the meaning of those mutashabihat verses, hence you can?t really verify all the verses in the Quran
" We need to follow what the Quran says and find out if it works or not.
it has to work because Allah knows and we don?t know as the Quran told us, hence even if it does not work then the problem is with the humans not with the divine laws
We need to put every law, every lesson side by side with natural law to make sure that what it says is true.
Great, let?s start with verse 11 and go through the whole Quran and show me how you can do that and how long it will take you to do that
That is the ONLY way to know.
I have a much either way, I believe what Allah told me in the Quran blindly
Otherwise, the Quran might not be what it claims to be. I hope you understand what I'm saying.
No I don?t understand that bit and would like you to elaborate please
Salam
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This verse clearly point that Qur'an has replaced the previous scriptures.
2106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
Ma nansakh min ayatin aw nunsiha nati bikhayrin minha aw mithliha alam taAAlam anna Allaha AAala kulli shayin qadeerun
I did say that Allah (SWT) has abrogated the previous scriptures which is not correct. I will try not to make not such statements in the future.
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peace Ahmed,
I don't think we need to take God and Quran together. What if you were locked up in a room and were only given to read what your captives allowed, and they never give you the Quran. Would you not believe in God then? would it be impossible for you to have a sense of morality?
It is easy for people like me and you to follow the quran blindly. We've been brought up believing that. It was ingrained in our brains at an early age that the quran is from God. What if a christian reads the quran? how can he/she blindly believe in it right away?
We don't need to verify every single verse. But all the major points in the quran. For example killing is wrong, or stealing is wrong. We can see for ourselves that those things are bad. The rules for governments, distibuting wealth, all of those laws.
How can we just assume, without ever reading it, that the quran is from God? and if we have to read it, and understand it to believe that, then you agree with me that we have to verify.and is 37 telling us that NO ONE will be able to understand those verses or only the ones with knowledge?
and if it is saying what you think it does, then doesn't that sound a bit suspicious.
I mean, I could write a book and say all sorts of things in it, and then claim that this book is from God. And it's not perfect because God included in it non-sense on purpose, to test us. -
37 telling us that NO ONE will be able to understand those verses or only the ones with knowledge?
No, the verse clearly states, only God knows AND the people with knowledge...
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Peace
I did see that but it is waste of time try to explain something to someone who do not believe that Qur'an is the divine revelations of Allah (SWT).
Mate
I advice that you convey the message then messure the ego and intelligence scale of the replys of your opponent, A Quran submitter should easily identify the hopeless cases through those two scales, and sure I donlt waste my time with hopeless cases
cheers
Sadiqi Ahmed Bahgat. He did reach to this level. Waste of time in my own judgement.
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Sanctifying Unlimited Ignorance via Distorting the Meaning of "Mutashabih" of 37
Edip Y?kselFinally, Lomax uses a mistranslation of 37 to make his erroneous point, that the verses about the number 19 are "mutashabih" and only hypocrites try to understand their meaning. First, I want to present my translation, and then explain why I think this is the correct translation, and why Yusuf Ali's translation is both wrong and dangerous. Please compare the important difference in punctation of the last two statements
"He revealed to you this scripture, consisting of straightforward verses, which are the essence of the scripture, as well as multiple-meaning verses (mutashabihat). Those who harbor doubt in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to seek their meanings. No one knows their meaning except God and those who are deeply rooted in knowledge. They say, 'We believe in this; it all comes from our Lord.' Only those who possess intelligence will take heed." (37)
First, we should try to understand the meaning of "mutashabih." The word "mutashabih" comes from "shabaha" (became similar), and its usage in other verses clarifies its meaning as "similar." It describes the things or words that can be confusing for a novice because of the similarities. (see 2118; 270; 4157; 699; 6141; 225) Verse 3923 uses "mutashabihat" for the entire Quran, referring to the overall similarity, in other words, its consistency. In its narrow meaning, "mutashabih" refers to all verses which can be understood in more than one ways. This includes all kind of allegories. The various meaning or implication of the same words require some qualities in the audience attentive mind, positive attitude, contextual perspective, and patience for research.
Now, let's come to the crucial part. It is one of the intriguing feature of the Quran that the verse about "mutashabih" verses of the Quran is itself mutashabih, that is, has multiple meanings. Indeed, the verses about understanding the Quran themselves are not understood by those who betray the Quran by trading it with volumes of hadith books which are full of fabricated stories falsely attributed to the Prophet Muhammad (See19 Questions For Muslim Scholars, by Edip Yuksel; Quran, Hadith and Islam, by Rashad Khalifa; Hadith A Re-evaluation, by Kassim Ahmad) Thus, those verses become an empirical proof for their own claim. For instance, see 1746; 4144; 5679).The last part of the verse 37 can be understood in two different ways by merely a punctuation change. If you stop after the word God, then you will (mis)understand like many Sunni scholars did. According to your punctuation, even those who possess knowledge will not be able to understand "mutashabih" verses. However, if you don't stop there its meaning will change to the opposite Those who possess knowledge will be able to understand their meaning. Let's list our reason for preferring this later understanding
- The intention of those who try to understand the multiple-meaning verses is important. With the disease in their harts, they try to confuse others by focusing on multiple meaning verses. Since only sincere believers possess the quality to understand the Quran (1746; 1857; 5417), hypocrites will not be able to find the true meaning of multiple-meaning words. They either try to take them out of context or disregard other verses that bring explanation to them. For instance
". . . And we sent down to you this message, to proclaim (litubayyena) for the people everything that is sent down to them, perhaps they will reflect (1644).
The word "'lituBaYyeNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means 1) To reveal what is concealed. 2) To explain what is vague. The first meaning is the antonym of "hide", the second is the antonym of "make vague". God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers." (1635)
Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337; 2025). If the Quran is a profound Arabic book, if it is explained by God, and if it is simple to understand (515; 26195; 111; 5417; 551-2), then the prophet does not have an extra mission to explain it. Furthermore, the verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation. Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it."The Quran broadcasts a very clear message. However, the problem is with our receivers. If our receiver does not hear the broadcast or cannot understand it well, then something is wrong with our receiver and we have to check it. If the signal is weak, we need to recharge our batteries, or reset our antennas. If we do not receive a clear message, we need to tune into the station, to the station of Quran alone, in order to get rid of the noises and interference from other sources. We may ask some help from knowledgeable people or experts for this task. If the receiver does not work at all, then we have to make a sincere effort to fix the broken parts. However, if we believe that the problem is in the broadcast, then nobody can help us. The divine broadcast can be heard in detail only by those who sincerely tune in, i.e., those who take it seriously and act accordingly. The condition of our receiver and the antenna, the power of the battery, and the precision level of our tuning are very important in getting the divine message properly.
"None can grasp it except the sincere." (5679)
The Quran is simple to understand (5411). Whoever opens his/her mind and heart as a monotheist and takes the time to study it, will understand it. This understanding will be enough for salvation. Beyond this, to understand the multi-meaning verses or allegorical descriptions you do not need to be a messenger of God. If you have a good mind and have studied the Quran as a believer, that is, if you have a deep knowledge, then you will be able to understand the true meanings of multiple-meaning verses. The verse 37, which is about the multiple-meaning verses, points this fact in a multiple-meaning way ". . . No one knows their true meaning except God and those who possess knowledge. . " Obviously, those who are confused by contradictory teaching of clergymen (ulama) do not possess knowledge and unable to understand this verse.
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In order to believe in all the verses of the Quran, one does not need to be deeply rooted in knowledge. To be a "believer" is a sufficient condition to beleive all the verses. However, one needs to have deep knowledge of the Quran in order to understand "mutashabih" (multiple meaning) verses accurately. Therefore, 37 mentions a narrow category (those who deeply rooted in knowledge) in relation with those multiple meaning verses.
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God, the teacher of the Quran, encourages believers to study the Quran with patience. A portion of the Quran requires intensive analytical study. It advises us not to rush into understandin without sufficient knowledge (20114). Nevertheless, the Quran, in general, is easy to understand (5417...). By mistranslating 37, you try to discourage and scare believers, including those who are deeply rooted in knowledge, from understanding the "mutashabih" verses, without a clear definition and identification of "mutashabih".
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If we follow the traditional translation of 37, then, we must have a clear definition of "mutashabih" verses in order to avoid trying to understand them. According to your translation, if one tries to understand a verse and that verse happens to be a mutashabih, then that person is in danger to become a hypocrite. Therefore, you must be able to identify ALL the mutashabih verses. Can you provide us with a list of mutashabih verses? Can you justify your criteria for your selection? How can your lack of understanding be criteria for others? Someone's lack of understanding of one verse cannot make a verse "taboo" for all other people. Otherwise, the lowest degree of understanding will be the common denominator in understanding of the Quran. The more verse you don't understand the more you will be safe, and the more verse you understand the more you will be a subject for accusation to be a hypocrite.
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There are some Sunni commentators who support our understanding. For instance, the classic commentary of al-Baydawi prefers this understanding. Please note that Yusuf Ali also acknowledges this fact in the footnote of 37 "One reading, rejected by the majority of Commentators, but accepted by Mujahid and others, would not make a break at the point marked Waqfa Lazim, but would run the two sentences together. In that case the construction would run 'No one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firm in knowledge. They say', etc." If you are not determining the truth by the number of votes (majority), then, I suggest you reflect on the reasons I have listed here.
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It appears that you agree with us regarding the first four function or objectives of the number Nineteen. (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews, (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers.
How can you explain these statements? How can this Quranic description or prophecy occur without understanding the meaning or implication of the number Nineteen? How many "believers" increased their faith without understanding the meaning of the number? How many Christians or Jews accepted the Quran because of this number, without understanding its meaning? How many people's doubt were removed by your version of Nineteen, that is, a Nineteen devoid of meaning for humans?
The way of understanding the implication of number Nineteen, on the other hand, entirely fits these Quranic description. It is an incredible prophecy of the Quran that the message of number 19 mentioned in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974, exactly 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. God Almighty has increased the faith of believers (thank God I am one of them), some Christians and Jews have accepted the message of the Quran and the fanatic disbelievers and hypocrites who do not really care about divine revelation have been disturbed by this number; they get furious and nervous when they hear or see the number 19. This reaction is well described in the last verses of the same chapter, especially 7449-51.
- The question asked by disbelievers and hypocrites in 7431 "What does God mean with this?" is not a question that expresses their curiosity for the meaning of God's word, but it is a question of ignorance and avoidance. They cannot or will not understand allegories, in other words, "mutashabih" verses. Please read verses 226 and 4715-16, and note that after allegorical description of "heaven" disbelievers ask similar question. In the context, it is obvious that they don't want to understand the implied meanings of those allegories. Their arrogance and ignorance lead them to read those verses literally which brings nothing but ignorance, disbelief and confusion for them (1760 and 3762-66; 1782).
Many of those who do not understand or unwilling to understand the implication of 7430-37 attempt to justify their lack of understanding by resorting to a phrase in 7431 "What does God mean by this example?" They accuse those who witness the great mathematical miracle of the Quran of asking this question. In brief, they think being curious about the given Quranic exmaple is a sign of hypocricy and disbelief.
This is an utterly false and tupsy turvy understanding of the phrase.
The singular of the word "MESAL" (example/analogy) is mentioned in the Quran 63 times, its plural "AMSAAL" is mentioned 11 times and its other derivatives 18 times.
Thus, the Quran provides us with dozens of examples, parables, analogies. According to the disbelievers of 19, all those examples are mentioned for only one reason "believers should not try to understand their meaning."
This is not only ridiculous, it is also insult to God for wasting dozens of verses just whiche were meant not to be understood.
Wasn't the Quran revealed to people az Zikr (message) to be understood? How could such a book encourage people not to understand the meaning of its many verses?
If we read 1425 and 2943, we will learn that people in general and educated elite in specific, are expected to understand the meaning of AMSAAL (examples/analogies/parabels).
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37 telling us that NO ONE will be able to understand those verses or only the ones with knowledge?
No, the verse clearly states, only God knows AND the people with knowledge...
peace arnoldyasin,
Ahmed Baghat thinks it says something different.
and KGB, can you please stop trying to vilify me and take part in this discussion? answer some of my questions maybe? I'm not just doing this for fun. I'm doing this to learn, and if you can't help me, don't.
We are not here to attack each other, but to help. -
Phoenix thats what I did with patience the problem is that you don't pay attention. The words of Allah (SWT) very clearly told us that people who don't have faith in Him will never be able to understand the message. Simple and easy when you don't believe that these are the words of Allah (SWT) than you will not be able to understand His message.
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peace KGB,
frankly, that makes no sense. At all.
How can we believe in something that doesn't make sense?
Even the Christians don't use that excuse to promote their bible.
They can always say "The bible doesn't make sense to you because you don't believe Jesus was God. You have to have faith in Jesus to understand the bible."
I have nothing against the Quran, but people's understandings need to change. -
Phoenix
It is Allah (SWT) who provide guidance. Not me not Ahmed Bahgat.
27 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
16108 Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.
1074 Then after him We sent (many) apostles to their peoples they brought them Clear Signs, but they would not believe what they had already rejected beforehand. Thus do We seal the hearts of the transgressors.
Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Budhism are not my subject and I really don't interferre or mock their beliefs. They have the God given right to believe what they like to believe.
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I give up. After analyzing very carefully what you are posting on the forum my conclusion is that you are here to create mischief on the forum not for sincere learning. I always ignored you and choose not to have any discussion with you or your kinds on the forum. Ahmed Bahgat advice me to keep engage with you which sure is not working.
Sadiqi Ahmed Bahgat I tried. )
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Peace,
People have to be openminded. I started to believe in the Quran because of the language itself. I didn't approach it as if it were from God, but i kept my mind open. So what KGB says is not totaly true, as mine first thought was only being open minded, i hadn't decided yet if it was from God or not. So it was my open mind that gave me access to the Quran, not my immediate believe that it was from God.